Roman Soldiers did not use maille - challenge this.

[Destraex]

I was looking through a lot of roman books I have and notice that fairly consistently we find physical remains of lorica segmentum, scale ,pilum, gladius and a lot of other roman arms and armour.

However I have never seen any physical copies or even partial copies of roman maille or chain mail as some people call it. Just a few of the usual art works that "seem" to indicate it existed but could just as easily be scale, leather or other armour.

Can anybody here prove that roman chain mail physically existed?

[yuezhi]

it's not really a fair comparison since lorica hamata preceded LS for years before getting phased out for some reason and possibly got recycled to make newer armour.

btw, there's a lot of LH in Rome, that tv series.

[Gandalf.]

They did use Lorica Hamata. It's mainly what they used in the republican era.

[Destraex]

I still see no proof of any being dug up. A stretch really when you consider it was hundreds of thousands of troops who allegedly used it and would have died on the battlefield.
I think it is fair as their were many many battles fought all over the place over periods of hundreds of years.

P.S. Are we saying that the roman plate armour would not have been melted down too? I mean we find evidence of everything else from the period. Even a wooden Roman ship at the bottom of the sea.
As far as I am aware we even find maille from Celts during the period maille would have been used by the Romans?

[Happy Hippie]

Hi.
Good point Destraex but here we go (with the help of uncle Google):
http://www.roma-victrix.com/armament...cae_hamata.htm

The text is in Italian but pictures are all U need. Hope that will bring satisfaction.

[Destraex]

Now that is freaking awesome!!!
I was debating this with an Italian friend who denied the hamata's existence due to lack of evidence.
This will settle a very old score thanks... unless he translates it as non-authentic or some such ;P

[JohnMilburn666]

To be honest we don't have much evidence of the use of lorica segmentata. Few examples have been found on the continent and these are in bad condition. Other than from their depictions on sculptures Historians had very little idea how they must have looked and were constructed until the surprise discovery of a pair of near intact segmentata cuirasses in England in the 60's.
Your right however we have very little evidence for mail armour, we have only 1 century BC sculpture that defiantly shows roman soldiers wearing mail armour, I cant remember for the life of me what its called but its in the Louvre. Other than this the romans must have worn mail armour as it was ubiquitous in the ancient world. However the lack of mail armour is not that suspicious, mail armour notoriously rusts away to nothing in a short amount of time. There are very few examples of fully intact mail armour from the later medieval period because of this but we know it was used. Anyway you can imagine how few examples survive from over a millennium earlier!

[JohnMilburn666]

Just looked through an old book, the Louvre sculpture is called the Alter of Domitius Ahenobarbus.

[Skyn0s]

Hi,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On this picture, as you said Domitius Ahenobarbus' sarcophagus, we can clearly see the representation of a Lorica Hamata.

As i have been able to see it in real, and compare with other representation of a chain mail, i can put forward that this frieze represent a chainmail too.

If i remember correctly, i believe that Polybus give us a description of the equipment of a legionary (Hastati / Principes /Triarii), with their distinction of ranks, weapons and armor. Probably he spoke about the Lorica Hamata as a part of the equipment of one of the three type of legionary during his time.

I haven't made that much research, but the Lorica Hamata do exist, we can speak about its broadcast if you want, but not about its existence in my opinion.

Skyn0s

[Diocletianus]

We cannot base all our conclusions on archeological finds. You need to read the primary sources ( ex: Polybius, Hérodote) and look at the period art.

Why the latin authors and the sculptors would add a chainmail to the roman soldiers ?
What were they wearing instead ? Nothing ?!?!

That is a very important claim you make and sorry, all the evidences are against you.

[Petroniu]

It is really weird to think that the roman legionaries went from leather armor to lorica segmentata without having first used the chain mail armor or lorica hamata. IIRC they actually took it from the gauls as their main army's armor, after they reformed their armies into cohorts from the old hoplitic armies.

[The Kybrothilian]

It is really weird to think that the roman legionaries went from leather armor to lorica segmentata without having first used the chain mail armor or lorica hamata. IIRC they actually took it from the gauls as their main army's armor, after they reformed their armies into cohorts from the old hoplitic armies.

They most likely adopted hamata when they began expanding to northern Italy. Before that they still used Italic and Greek armor.

[Nikephoros Kapatsos]

Saying the Romans never used maille is like dismissing the human migrations of that epoch.

[Shigawire]

I was looking through a lot of roman books I have and notice that fairly consistently we find physical remains of lorica segmentum, scale ,pilum, gladius and a lot of other roman arms and armour.

The Lorica Segmentata was not in use until plus/minus 9 AD, as that's the earliest find of this armor configuration. Caesar's legions some 50-60 years prior wore Hamata in the Marian configuration, after Gaius Marius reformed the army. But Hamata was used prior to Gaius Marius as well. Well into the early Republic.
It's clear the Italians adopted Hamata from the Celts, as they were the pre-eminent metal workers in the world at that time.

[Black Fox]

I found this gold mine of information on Lorica Segmentata http://www.scribd.com/doc/3961788/Lo...n-Plate-Armour

[RC-1136]

MC Bishop is great!

Remember that one of the great advantages of chain mail ist that you can allways recycle it when broken. So maybe you would leave some broken segmentatae or helmets behind on the battlefield you can always repair a broken hamata.

So there are only a few finds of loricae hamatae but they do exist. The Roman museum here in Agusburg has even an orignial mixture of chain mail and scale armour (some would call it lorica plumata but there is of course some doubt about it). This weekend I had the opportunity to see a good preserved piece of Roman chain mail in the Archäologische Staatssammlung in Munich.

Finally there is to say that the lorica hamata never fell out of fashion. Yes, at some point the segmentata came up but it never became the standard armour.

[HAL9000]

Trajan's column clearly shows at least the auxilia and allied troops wearing lorica hamata, alongside the segmentata wearing legionaires.

[mondpeiler]

and think about it: roman legionairies didn't wear the same type of armour throug all of Roms history.
(the armour was different as well regarding climate in which the legion was stationed).
if we think of roman soldiers, the stereotype Lorica Segmentata guy comes to our mind, but in the early days of the republic the soldiers looked verry different - and at the end of the western empire as well.

[HoulaHoup]

The EB team should stop denying historical fact and add LS to their mod.

[Murfmurf]

The EB team should stop denying historical fact and add LS to their mod.

Erm, they don't. LS it outside the mod's period of history marginally.