Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[conon394]

Personally I reckon Theon running away is because a) he's stuffed up mentally and physically, and b) so he can save her at a later date, if he'd tried to save her then they both would've been killed

But that would be the point. I don't think -b - is possible. One very good acting in sequence, but I see a quite reference to Theon in the books. He recalls himself a bit and knows he should have stayed loyal to Robb and died at the red wedding and he would least have his honor. It gives him sufficient spine to sort of flee, but no more - not to act.

Any calls the Wolf seance. First its interesting I read now the dire wolves have been removed because good CGI for a living animal is well just way too expensive when already got to fund dragons. My take is Ayra is back for kings landing. I think here sentence fits both her and her wolf - paraphrase - they are not what they were anymore - she stays lady stone hart/Aryra.

Liked Euron - Its to see somebody who looks really to just like breaking stuff and does really seem to be playing the game.


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Then I have to ask how Euron managed to catch them completely unprepared for an assault. I know at night visibility is such that surprise attacks are common on sea, but we saw how close Euron's ship was to them. Was Yara's entire flotilla of ships sailing in single file? No perimeter was established?

I sure the show was not that concerned. but might well be. Wind, Seas, Familiarity with the waters? Euron did win the vote who is to say who retained the better sailors? In any case all the Danny side sequences show a certain overconfidence - certainly Yara - even lassitude, one could I think assume the attitude could cover all her command as well. I mean if Nelson is more busy getting it on with Emma below decks its kinda hard for 'every man to do his duty' or care to try.

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Edit: Actually I rather glad the Dothraki.have not appeared do far they are absolutely annoying in the books and the show, and logistically impossible. Period. They cannot be has fearsome as implied w/o a string of 7 + horses and yet we never see that. Try loading that into ships when they (the horses) have never ever been enclosed and the owners are scared of water. Professional cavalry would cut through them like butter - rather the way Ain Jalut played out. Without water, fodder, room to maneuver and with a low string count of horses - the professional Mamluks held the day and the Dothraki don't even a string of anything -> serious maneuverability issue. Even a knight had two horses one to ride and one to fight.

[Kyriakos]

It is the usual poor writing. There is a multitude of cases of this, primarily after season4 when they could not directly rely to the books.

A more famous example would be Jon Snow & Wildlings unboarding their ships still NORTH of the wall, cause it is fun to take the walk to castle black from the beach because reasons + one cheap scene with ser Alisser deciding to open to them

[ggsimmonds]

I sure the show was not that concerned. but might well be. Wind, Seas, Familiarity with the waters? Euron did win the vote who is to say who retained the better sailors? In any case all the Danny side sequences show a certain overconfidence - certainly Yara - even lassitude, one could I think assume the attitude could cover all her command as well. I mean if Nelson is more busy getting it on with Emma below decks its kinda hard for 'every man to do his duty' or care to try.

Even if Yara is half the sailor Euron is (and respective crews), the show has made on thing abundantly clear -- everyone from the Iron Islands has experience on the sea. That is what they are known for.

Yara positioning her fleet in such a way that an enemy ship is able to ram and board her VIP carrying flagship is beyond stupid. Its something you would expect the Dothraki to do.

Handy map to remind everyone of the geography:
https://quartermaester.info/

[Påsan]

Dothraki dosent make sense in any way, never mind in logistics. They arent mongols more than a band of pitchfork wielding peasants are spartans, they are more like some kind of barbaric iron age steppe people. And they dont use steppe peoples weapons like the bow and spear, rather prefferring a sickle sword that seems designed to be ripped out of the owners hand at first contact.

[conon394]

Even if Yara is half the sailor Euron is (and respective crews), the show has made on thing abundantly clear -- everyone from the Iron Islands has experience on the sea. That is what they are known for.

Not really raiders and pillagers doesn't a Nelson make. They lost to Stannis - and that would presumably have been all the Greyjoys so far in the show. I am sure the fleet of 77 ships that Phormio defeated with 11 ships, made up of Corinthians and men of Megara - hardly shy of the water was just as surprised. Really more so since they intended battle in broad day light. Good or not you can always be lax and have somebody just as good take your lunch. How many companies have really good IT guys but get hacked or suffer a worm or DoS attack just because they could not convince a CIO they needed a upgrade or a weekend of downtime etc.? Yara was looking to get randy and not paying attention to her fleet. Maybe on another day she might have been been on her A game. But on balance I got no issue she lazy and distracted and that filters down through the ranks.

@Påsan

I agree for all the very good sort of war of roses writing that GRRM manages to open Game of Thrones. The Dothraki are a crude toss off and certainly not believable as a threat to any medieval army of the ones of westros (as described in detail with a well rounded set of forces from knights to pikes and horse archers and foot archers).

[Kyriakos]

Some islands with next to no lumber building 1000 ships is a bit far-fetched too. You don't see the cyclades or even Samos having that. You don't even see Athens or Persia have that

Maybe they sold off their iron, reducing THE IRON PRICE

[Halie Satanus]

To be fair the Dothraki are no more than a fearsome addition to an expected Westerosi allied army. Only Viserys seemed to believe a Dothraki horde could conquer Westros, and he was an ass.

I expect on their own they'd fail horribly against an organised Lanister army, but unleashed to cause havoc with hit and run attacks on supply lines and smaller troop movements they could be devastating.

On the other hand, as a ground force supported by Dragons, they wouldn't be facing an organised army. More likely chasing down troops trying to run away from Dragon fire.

[conon394]

They have a bit open space with the dragons. I'm intrigued as to what they do. They played the will just AA up. Fair. But book wise Euron is supposed to have the ace in the what - the dragon horn. Also Bran is hard core magic and for Danny they are just pets. Perhaps the North just takes what it needs to fight the war... Collectively via book 3 people can actually take over another creature and none of them are annoying Danny. Show just one; again not Danny. I am not so confident the Dothraki can count on air cover.

[Love Mountain]

It's a show. It's also set in a land with dragons and ice zombies. Idk why y'all are complaining about realism here. I see swords regularly stab through gambison, Ramsay Bolton shot a target 400 yards away at an arc, and how does everyone get knocked off the horse with the slightest touch? It's bizarre.

[Kyriakos]

[...] and how does everyone get knocked off the horse with the slightest touch?

Taedium Vitae?

[BatGoat]

Ramsay Bolton shot a target 400 yards away at an arc

And he did it without twenty good men.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

I see a lot of guys complain about the fact that Euron unrealistically managing to stage a successful surprise attack on Dany's fleet is an uninspired way of tipping the scales even and thus making plot more interesting.
Well, just remember how many times the Romans lost entire fleets to storms during the 1st Punic War thus giving the Carthagenians the chance to bounce back from their crushing defeats again and again.

[ggsimmonds]

I see a lot of guys complain about the fact that Euron unrealistically managing to stage a successful surprise attack on Dany's fleet is an uninspired way of tipping the scales even and thus making plot more interesting.
Well, just remember how many times the Romans lost entire fleets to storms during the 1st Punic War thus giving the Carthagenians the chance to bounce back from their crushing defeats again and again.

The two are not close to the same.

I don't think anyone would be complaining of 'lack of realism' if Yara's ship and her fleet were lost in a storm. Some complaints that it was anti-climatic sure, but nothing like my complaints over what did happen.

Also I want to touch on something a few posters mentioned -- complaining about realism. One must understand the difference between realism and plausibility.
We watch the show understanding that it is not realistic, it is fantasy. But we also expect that the show will set its rules and consistently adhere to them. This is true for virtually every form of fantasy and sci-fi (see: Star Trek 2009 and the transporter fiasco). We then hope that given the established rules, events will remain plausible.

Do I find the events plausible to happen in the GoT universe? No.
Saying the show has dragons so stop complaining misses the point entirely.

[Kyriakos]

^ +1

[Love Mountain]

Also I want to touch on something a few posters mentioned -- complaining about realism. One must understand the difference between realism and plausibility.
We watch the show understanding that it is not realistic, it is fantasy. But we also expect that the show will set its rules and consistently adhere to them. This is true for virtually every form of fantasy and sci-fi (see: Star Trek 2009 and the transporter fiasco). We then hope that given the established rules, events will remain plausible.

Do I find the events plausible to happen in the GoT universe? No.
Saying the show has dragons so stop complaining misses the point entirely.

This is silly. The show is consistently random and creates a deus ex machina every season. The Lannister Tyrell army miraculously comes in time right as Stannis has managed to make it to the walls during the battle of Black Water. Stannis Baratheon miraculously organizes a perfect flank on the wildling army 100,000 strong and perfectly locates their King, forcing a surrender (in terrain he has never been in, let alone fought in). Ramsay Bolton managed to burn 6 months of supplies of the Baratheon army in one night with only 20 men. Oh and Daenerys managed to become the leader of a Dothraki horde and arrive, once again, just in time to relieve her besieged realm.

That a fleet managed to ambush another fleet in the middle of a night, perfectly locate and ram the flagship is not really that outlandish to me when considering everything I've seen in the show.

[Roma_Victrix]

This is silly. The show is consistently random and creates a deus ex machina every season. The Lannister Tyrell army miraculously comes in time right as Stannis has managed to make it to the walls during the battle of Black Water. Stannis Baratheon miraculously organizes a perfect flank on the wildling army 100,000 strong and perfectly locates their King, forcing a surrender (in terrain he has never been in, let alone fought in). Ramsay Bolton managed to burn 6 months of supplies of the Baratheon army in one night with only 20 men. Oh and Daenerys managed to become the leader of a Dothraki horde and arrive, once again, just in time to relieve her besieged realm.

That a fleet managed to ambush another fleet in the middle of a night, perfectly locate and ram the flagship is not really that outlandish to me when considering everything I've seen in the show.

Don't forget Littlefinger showing up just in time with the Knights of the Vale cavalry charge to save Jon as he's about to be destroyed by Ramsay outside Winterfell. I did enjoy that scene, but it was very opportune and convenient timing, wasn't it? Especially since it seemed Ramsay had no idea they were even nearby and would enter the battlefield anytime soon (let alone on the same day given the marching and riding distances involved). Surely a competent leader of the North would have had messengers and spies relaying him information about the movements of a giant army of the House of Arryn riding around in the North and approaching Winterfell, and by that I mean days if not weeks before the battle started.

[Twido]

The two are not close to the same.

I don't think anyone would be complaining of 'lack of realism' if Yara's ship and her fleet were lost in a storm. Some complaints that it was anti-climatic sure, but nothing like my complaints over what did happen.

Also I want to touch on something a few posters mentioned -- complaining about realism. One must understand the difference between realism and plausibility.
We watch the show understanding that it is not realistic, it is fantasy. But we also expect that the show will set its rules and consistently adhere to them. This is true for virtually every form of fantasy and sci-fi (see: Star Trek 2009 and the transporter fiasco). We then hope that given the established rules, events will remain plausible.

Do I find the events plausible to happen in the GoT universe? No.
Saying the show has dragons so stop complaining misses the point entirely.

Well said, I believe that this is the biggest problem with fantasy on TV and Film. It also affects Sci Fi and historical genres albeit to a lesser extent.
I hope you will concede that realism and plausibility are often at least closely related though

[conon394]

Some complaints that it was anti-climatic sure, but nothing like my complaints over what did happen.

But I simply don't think it was outlandish. I'm pretty sure both Hornblower and Aubrey use or fall for the trick of floating a ships lamp in a small boat at night for mis direction. Sighting at night was hard. Euron has black sails (a nice touch although likely unintentional since classical ships often ran with dyed sails to avoid detection something the scale of sails kinda made not practical in the great age of sail).

On balance I find the episode acceptable. Yara is clearly shown as lax and distracted, not running a tight ship. I am willing to extend that to her command in general. She does not have the dragons so is vulnerable. Do we really need a whole sequence of her failing to react to a fishing boat in the distance? Navies are somewhere between Athens and Venice in shows and the books - and History rather drops out the roll of small ships most of the time. Its hard to know if small flanking ships would have been deployed. The navy Rhodes consistently and persistently eluded the blockade of their city at night. So one lax commander and one with a promise to keep. Ships look not have the wide ranging freedom of nelson's fleet so fairly obvious routes of travel. Assume Euron kept his ships dark right up until the final moment and given the character accepted the risk of loosing ships. Seems like a plan within the fairly good bounds.

Now the size and scale of two Iron fleets does strain plausible suspension belief. A short line about handing over the Lannister fleet to Euron would have been nice.

On balance I think its fair to say I should be more careful. I have a much higher tolerance of DxMachina in a show than a in the books. So my bitterness at the Dothraki and transporting them them from the books what you do have to make me believe either supposed steppe bad ass and the logistics. Same wise the show cut Aryar's warging so it comes across as abrupt that she can elude the Faceless men and their brain washing, which is what the Books do develop. GRRM has developed that plot line well and the Show had to run with published material until it ran out and that is fairly clear she learns the trade and then is leaving. But the man did really very little to convince me a Dothraki hoard could go to westeros in anything less than a decade. The show just sorta follows that - really any evidence of the Iron Born transporting any cavalry at all? It's really hard in fact to move horses.

So I guess you are really left with as others said your personal tolerance for seems like well constructed plot narrative in a fantasy world which of course by definition is not really real. I have no expectations for Yara. I've never seen her or Theon or Euron command any fleet - all I know is they were all losers once bettered by Stannis (Show). Yara lost the crown because of tradition Euron was elder. And ran away...

[Gaidin]

Don't forget Littlefinger showing up just in time with the Knights of the Vale cavalry charge to save Jon as he's about to be destroyed by Ramsay outside Winterfell. I did enjoy that scene, but it was very opportune and convenient timing, wasn't it? Especially since it seemed Ramsay had no idea they were even nearby and would enter the battlefield anytime soon (let alone on the same day given the marching and riding distances involved). Surely a competent leader of the North would have had messengers and spies relaying him information about the movements of a giant army of the House of Arryn riding around in the North and approaching Winterfell, and by that I mean days if not weeks before the battle started.

Littlefinger is hardly one to complain about. Sansa sent that message episodes early and Littlefinger manipulated the Lord of the Vale that it should be done. Also, Ramsay was never presented as the most endearing leader in the North nor one to get the most loyalty from the most Houses. Reports and loyalty from Houses and from pre-established Winterfell spies would depend on the route taken by Vale Soldiers. Luck of the timing can happen in any battle. Ten minutes late and that cavalry charge would be burying Jon Snow and riding home to the Vale with Sansa.

I'd have to go back and check when Lannister's army arrived at King's Landing and when they showed them beginning their march just for this reason as well, given they were coming from Harrenhall if I recall correctly.

And Daenerys dealing with the Dothraki took all of season 6 to boot. Then she flew on ahead of the horde while they rode behind. They sort of got there after she'd begun her little demonstration with the dragons. Nice to stop the killing, but not really a part of what she was doing and we know it.

Stannis flanking the wildling army is not exactly anything new nor...extremely difficult when it's that large if you're trying to get 100,000 men over the wall. And we know the wildlings are not exactly military trained to react to this in an organized fashion. You have a lot of time to get where you need to be and position yourself, also pressured by Melisandre to come north to boot(this ALL comes from the books as well) and so likely happening over multiple episodes and worth checking.

The only fickle one mentioned is 20 people burning 6 months of supplies in a night in a sudden gutsy move by Bolton. That raises questions of storage method and guarding procedures of Stannis, but this is also the only battle questioned so far that did not potentially involve a multi-episode arc to set up why the dominoes fell as they did.

[conon394]

Luck of the timing can happen in any battle. Ten minutes late and that cavalry charge would be burying Jon Snow and riding home to the Vale with Sansa.

Any/Every battle of Alexander hinged on a cavalry charge at just right time. His victory over Porus amounted to telling the leader of the cavalry he was not in personal command of (by best historical analysis) more or less amounted to ride around the entire enemy army, avoid the elephants and show up behind just as I launch my cavalry attack... no signals, no radio, no nothing just good luck - the gods - fate - the simple fact that Alexander could not loose, but something not to be if it was show.