Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[Adar]

I was starting to get really worried about the show after episode 9 and I am surprised that the Battle of the Bastards is seen as an epic moment of the show by many fans. A fantasy show can of course never be realistic but for me it is incredibly important to maintain a reasonable level of internal believability to make a show enjoyable. This mean that I do not worry about the lift coefficient of a dragon wing, but I get quite annoyed when lazy script writing mean that characters make illogical decisions in order to advance the plot. Game of Thrones is one of the best TV-shows in the world to avoid this kind of issues but episode 9 got me really worried about the future of the show as it contained so many cases where they relied on the viewers suspension of disbelief.

• Ricons death was stupid (why not just fire one arrow at a time and then finish him off with a volley?).
• Jon Snow mainly came off as childish by blowing the entire battle plan.
• Jamie Lannister is apparently the only man in Westeros familiar with concepts such as "scouts" and "flank coverage". This is the 4th battle ending with the underdog being saved by the unexpected arrival of an ally that immediately charge into battle and crush the enemy army.
• The entire battle plan of Ramsey Bolton.
• Jon Snow have by now picked up so much plot armour that a protracted death scene does not come off as a heart gripping.
• The whole sub-plot with the giant was just plain terrible. He was treated as pretty much indestructible up until he crashed through the gates of Winterfell, then he looked a bit taken and promptly got shot by the main villain.

Luckily I think E10 showed just how good GoT can be. I have been looking forward to learn more about the true character of both the High Sparrow and Queen Margery. Normally a show become predictable as you can see which plots the writers focus on. But GoT is unique in how plots are allowed to literally die as their characters fall victim to other plots that kill off the story arc regardless of if it is finished or not.

[athanaric]

I was starting to get really worried about the show after episode 9 and I am surprised that the Battle of the Bastards is seen as an epic moment of the show by many fans. A fantasy show can of course never be realistic but for me it is incredibly important to maintain a reasonable level of internal believability to make a show enjoyable. This mean that I do not worry about the lift coefficient of a dragon wing, but I get quite annoyed when lazy script writing mean that characters make illogical decisions in order to advance the plot. Game of Thrones is one of the best TV-shows in the world to avoid this kind of issues but episode 9 got me really worried about the future of the show as it contained so many cases where they relied on the viewers suspension of disbelief.

• Ricons death was stupid (why not just fire one arrow at a time and then finish him off with a volley?).
• Jon Snow mainly came off as childish by blowing the entire battle plan.
• Jamie Lannister is apparently the only man in Westeros familiar with concepts such as "scouts" and "flank coverage". This is the 4th battle ending with the underdog being saved by the unexpected arrival of an ally that immediately charge into battle and crush the enemy army.
• The entire battle plan of Ramsey Bolton.
• Jon Snow have by now picked up so much plot armour that a protracted death scene does not come off as a heart gripping.
• The whole sub-plot with the giant was just plain terrible. He was treated as pretty much indestructible up until he crashed through the gates of Winterfell, then he looked a bit taken and promptly got shot by the main villain.

I see your points and I mostly agree with them, what irked me most about the battle though was the fact that practically none of Jon Snow's faction - including himself! - was wearing helmets and shields. This is hugely unrealistic, as pointed out in the review by Matt Easton. I get that they do it with main characters for dramaturgical reasons (so that the audience can recognize them better, and can pick up on their emotions better), but this could be averted if those main characters just wore more distinctive clothing and/or armour. Or, you know, a distinctive helmet and shield. And it is possible - Karl Urban did it twice, in Lord of the Rings (which has Aragorn and Legolas running around without helmets, though) and in Dredd.
And there's no excuse for Jon's Northern allies not being equipped properly. Even the Wildlings should have had more spears and primitive shields.

[Condottiere 40K]

Dredd never removes his helmet.

It is ... the Law.

[athanaric]

Dredd never removes his helmet.

It is ... the Law.

And yet he was able to make viewers empathize with him. If the actor is good enough, his/her wearing a helmet is not a problem.

Speaking of "her", Brienne also runs around with no helmet.
And another thing - there should be way more people wearing caps or hats. Especially the Wildlings and Bran's party. The way it is now, it makes the show look like it's made by people who've never experienced cold weather.

[SorelusImperion]

Jamie Lannister is apparently the only man in Westeros familiar with concepts such as "scouts" and "flank coverage". This is the 4th battle ending with the underdog being saved by the unexpected arrival of an ally that immediately charge into battle and crush the enemy army.

It happened often enough in history to be considered a common occurence. Communication was extraordinarily difficult and so was keeping oversight and Control. Even Napoleon lost exactly for the same reason: Unexpected reinforcements of the enemy appearing on the battlefield.

[Captain Jin]

You also have to consider cost and time though when you want all of these extra props. This isn't a movie that has a massive budget, nor does it have a lengthy schedule for shooting. This is one episode of ten, and it's a tv show, a well-funded one, but still a tv show. When you consider the fact that they have to dress the corpses, bring in the horses, equip all of Ramsay's men, all of Snow's men, all the Knights of Vale, pay for CGI to make the battle bigger, etc you see why they start to make cuts in some areas. That's why Ghost wasn't there. Literally time and money. They only had the time and money for Wun Wun or Ghost, they chose Wun Wun.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yeah, about that previous post being my last (Schwarzenneger voice): I lied.

Someone on Reddit made these handy-dandy banners that provide a quick recap of each season's episode #9, followed by each season's episode #10.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I see your points and I mostly agree with them, what irked me most about the battle though was the fact that practically none of Jon Snow's faction - including himself! - was wearing helmets and shields. This is hugely unrealistic, as pointed out in the review by Matt Easton. I get that they do it with main characters for dramaturgical reasons (so that the audience can recognize them better, and can pick up on their emotions better), but this could be averted if those main characters just wore more distinctive clothing and/or armour. Or, you know, a distinctive helmet and shield. And it is possible - Karl Urban did it twice, in Lord of the Rings (which has Aragorn and Legolas running around without helmets, though) and in Dredd.
And there's no excuse for Jon's Northern allies not being equipped properly. Even the Wildlings should have had more spears and primitive shields.

Good points, you guys. I did not consider Karl Urban in Lord of the Rings, which also had King Theoden wearing a helmet, yet all was well. You could easily tell who he was. Boromir and Faramir never wore helmets, though to the movies' credit nearly each and every Gondor soldier had one (aside from the Rangers of Ithilien).

[athanaric]

Yeah, about that previous post being my last (Schwarzenneger voice): I lied.

lol. The way you spelled his last name, it means "black negro" (in accusative case). Arnie's name is one of those cases where spelling is really important.

Good points, you guys. I did not consider Karl Urban in Lord of the Rings, which also had King Theoden wearing a helmet, yet all was well. You could easily tell who he was. Boromir and Faramir never wore helmets, though to the movies' credit nearly each and every Gondor soldier had one (aside from the Rangers of Ithilien).

I guess they wanted to convey the "underdog" and "rag-tag band of survivors" feeling with Jon's forces. But I think they went a bit overboard with that.

[saxdude]

So a theory in reddit suggested that Jon's name as per Lyanna is:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jahaerys III Targaryen, based on lyanna saying a three syllable word that apparently starts with a J, and a whole host of metaphorical reasons based on the last 2 Jahaerys on the Iron throne.

Also, am I the only one that dislikes Rhaeghar? Never mind that I don't think he actually loved Lyanna and was just stubbernly desperate to fulfill a silly prophesy, but also voluntarily causing the death of Lyanna's two brothers, an extremely costly war and the death of thousands of civilians, stupidly provoking Robert Baratheon at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and disgracing Ellaria and her two children. Lyanna is even worse, an idiot if she didn't understand the consequences of her actions, and a monster if she did.

I mean jesus christ man, kill the Mad King, hire the faceless men or something to kill Robert Baratheon, or just suck it the up.



Also Tyrion is totally not gonna make it.

[Condottiere 40K]

Don't sell him short.

[Gäiten]

Good points, you guys. I did not consider Karl Urban in Lord of the Rings, which also had King Theoden wearing a helmet, yet all was well. You could easily tell who he was. Boromir and Faramir never wore helmets, though to the movies' credit nearly each and every Gondor soldier had one (aside from the Rangers of Ithilien).

Seriously, did armour even somewhat protect Orcs or Uruk-Hai in the battles?

[RedGuard]

So a theory in reddit suggested that Jon's name as per Lyanna is:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jahaerys III Targaryen, based on lyanna saying a three syllable word that apparently starts with a J, and a whole host of metaphorical reasons based on the last 2 Jahaerys on the Iron throne.

Also, am I the only one that dislikes Rhaeghar? Never mind that I don't think he actually loved Lyanna and was just stubbernly desperate to fulfill a silly prophesy, but also voluntarily causing the death of Lyanna's two brothers, an extremely costly war and the death of thousands of civilians, stupidly provoking Robert Baratheon at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and disgracing Ellaria and her two children. Lyanna is even worse, an idiot if she didn't understand the consequences of her actions, and a monster if she did.

I mean jesus christ man, kill the Mad King, hire the faceless men or something to kill Robert Baratheon, or just suck it the up.



Also Tyrion is totally not gonna make it.

I like Rhaegar, but I like Young Robert more. So Im torn in my loyalties. I do believe you correct in that it not being "true love" that Rhaegar had for Lyanna, but neither did Robert have true love for her either. She was an object to Robert, something he desired. in the same way Rhaegar needed her to fulfill the prophecy. So I think the only one in the scenario that actually loved was Lyanna, And I do think she really loved Rhaegar. I also dont buy the Robert lie that Rhaegar took her and raped her, I think its obvious she ran off with him because she didn't want to be with Robert.

And Rhaegar was trying to overthrow Aerys II peacefully by getting all the lords together at the Tourney, but Varys messed that up and told the Mad King to attend. Thats why I have never bought that Varys is a good guy or that he is an unquestioning Targ supporter.

[+Marius+]

I also agree with the helmet argument.

One of the greatest examples is the movie Troy, where not only most of the cast wear helmets during combat, but even Brad and Bana wore helmets in nearly ever combat scene they were in, apart from the last duel ofc.

Heck, they even managed to put one on Russel Crow in Gladiator.

HECK, they even managed to put a ing facemask on Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven.

It can be done.

[Condottiere 40K]

Once you lose what's important in life, there's very little anybody has to hold over you.

[Roma_Victrix]

lol. The way you spelled his last name, it means "black negro" (in accusative case). Arnie's name is one of those cases where spelling is really important.

Too late! I'm not changing it to Schwarzenegger as I should. I like it better this way. Besides, it gives him a hip urban feel that the kids will love.

I guess they wanted to convey the "underdog" and "rag-tag band of survivors" feeling with Jon's forces. But I think they went a bit overboard with that.

They certainly did. It was the only questionable thing about Sapochnik's directing, I would say, but I don't think he had much control if any over the costume department and the budgeting designated to the wardrobes and costumes worn by hundreds of extras on set.

So a theory in reddit suggested that Jon's name as per Lyanna is:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jahaerys III Targaryen, based on lyanna saying a three syllable word that apparently starts with a J, and a whole host of metaphorical reasons based on the last 2 Jahaerys on the Iron throne.

Also, am I the only one that dislikes Rhaeghar? Never mind that I don't think he actually loved Lyanna and was just stubbernly desperate to fulfill a silly prophesy, but also voluntarily causing the death of Lyanna's two brothers, an extremely costly war and the death of thousands of civilians, stupidly provoking Robert Baratheon at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and disgracing Ellaria and her two children. Lyanna is even worse, an idiot if she didn't understand the consequences of her actions, and a monster if she did.

Wasn't she really young and impressionable? We all did stupid things based on our raging hormones when we were teenagers, didn't we?

Also Tyrion is totally not gonna make it.

Tyrion will be just fine. His plot armor is at least several inches thicker than characters like Brienne and Tormund, although perhaps slightly thinner than Sam's plot armor. That fat boy is going to be the last one to die. Mark my words. In fact, according to a theory cited on a previous page, he might be the last person we see in the last shot of the show, in the final episode of season 8.

Heck, they even managed to put one on Russel Crow in Gladiator.

HECK, they even managed to put a ing facemask on Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven.

Even if I hadn't seen the credits, I would have known that was Edward Norton right away. He's got a very distinctive voice. Even if you'd only seen a movie like Fight Club or American History X one time, you'd still probably recognize him through that face mask. In that case they perfectly casted him as a voice actor; I think only Kevin Spacey or someone else with a really distinguishable voice could have pulled that off so easily.

[Kyriakos]

There was also that agent Smith guy as VVendetta, and that alien-killed guy as The Elephant Man

[saxdude]

Wasn't she really young and impressionable? We all did stupid things based on our raging hormones when we were teenagers, didn't we?

Yes, and that shouldn't really excuse us, especially if it ends with the deaths of tens of thousands.

Tyrion will be just fine. His plot armor is at least several inches thicker than characters like Brienne and Tormund, although perhaps slightly thinner than Sam's plot armor. That fat boy is going to be the last one to die. Mark my words. In fact, according to a theory cited on a previous page, he might be the last person we see in the last shot of the show, in the final episode of season 8.

Harrenhall claims all who own it, and the Lannisters owned it good. Kingslayer Part II: Hand of the King edition is but a season away.

I like Rhaegar, but I like Young Robert more. So Im torn in my loyalties. I do believe you correct in that it not being "true love" that Rhaegar had for Lyanna, but neither did Robert have true love for her either. She was an object to Robert, something he desired. in the same way Rhaegar needed her to fulfill the prophecy. So I think the only one in the scenario that actually loved was Lyanna, And I do think she really loved Rhaegar. I also dont buy the Robert lie that Rhaegar took her and raped her, I think its obvious she ran off with him because she didn't want to be with Robert.

And Rhaegar was trying to overthrow Aerys II peacefully by getting all the lords together at the Tourney, but Varys messed that up and told the Mad King to attend. Thats why I have never bought that Varys is a good guy or that he is an unquestioning Targ supporter.

I like Robert about as much as I like Rhaeghar (I could share a beer with either of them), but my main support of him over Rhaegar is simply that Robert Baratheon was a dudebro that fell, by no fault of his own, into the morally correct side of the war. Sure he didn't really love Lyanna, but then again she was the one to leave without so much as a warning into what looked like a kidnapping, caused the death of Roberts bestfriends brother and father, and plundged Westeros into civil war. Lyanna and Rhaeghar were horribly selfish, and together with Aerys justified every action Robert took after the fact until his marriage with Cersei.

Frankly, the only morally upright, good person to survive the whole shebang was Ned Stark. And what did he get for his upstanding honour, undying love for his family and moral support for his best friend and his time of need? A "bastard" son to tarnish his reputation with his wife, and a head in a basket.

Also I'm pretty sure Varys is a Blackfyre, and that would be a pretty great reveal in the book, me thinks. Still, Rhaegar should have been ore proactive with the destitution of the king.

[Halie Satanus]

Even if I hadn't seen the credits, I would have known that was Edward Norton right away. He's got a very distinctive voice.

He's not credited for that movie. Norton said as his face was never seen he didn't want to be credited, later he said he thought it added to the mystery of the character. It was sometime after the movie was released that it was revealed as Norton. He got the part because Scott wanted someone who sounded like 'James Mason.' Norton said he could do a pretty good Mason.

[Adar]

It happened often enough in history to be considered a common occurence. Communication was extraordinarily difficult and so was keeping oversight and Control. Even Napoleon lost exactly for the same reason: Unexpected reinforcements of the enemy appearing on the battlefield.

Do you mean the Prussian arrival at Waterloo? Because Napoleon was well aware of the dangers posed by the Prussians at Waterloo and prepared accordingly even if he was unable to win the battle.

At situations like the Battle of Blackwater bay it may be acceptable that the attacking army is unable to prepare for the arrival of the relief force. But in an open field battle it is unheard of as far as I know, even surprise attacks from the flanks such as in the battle of Jankau (30 year war) or the surprising advance of the Swedish army at Fraustadt were slow enough to allow at least some preparation prior to the attack.

[GreyFox]

There is a theory doing the rounds, and it makes sense, and there is some evidence from the books pointing at it, that Ser Arthur Dayne is Qhorin Halfhand. Which would be pretty cool, and makes sense.

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comm..._arthur_dayne/