Thread: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Does Stannis really have a reason to use such a brutal execution method other then "Yay religion!"?
    Except her god really does do stuff for its followers. As the god of Death seemingly for the Faceless Men and the Old Gods of the North for those in the North. The show very much minimizes 'magic' except for red chic (for example I don't believe they have made any reference to skin changing by widlings or starks or other powers - just Bran which makes him look unique vs just at the high end of the scale). But any case of execution is likely to be ugly no matter what - that is why the Guillotine was invented. In case from standpoint of utility the only gods who don't deserve any sacrifice of any sort as has far as I see can are the seven gods of the most of Westros since they seem to do nothing for anybody.
    Last edited by conon394; May 13, 2015 at 07:09 AM.
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  2. #5322

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by SLN445 View Post
    Does Stannis really have a reason to use such a brutal execution method other then "Yay religion!"? Its hard to sympathize with someone of sound mind when they do such things.
    Dany on the other hand has the excuse of being an inexperienced ruler trying to deal with everything going to and everyone contradicting each other, though it was still a rather big WTF moment when she had that guy horrificaly killed that way just to send a warning...

    Being inexperienced is no excuse for committing crimes and atrocities. Otherwise you could just as easily say the same thing about for instance Joffrey or Ramsay when they were doing their share of torture and murder. And as if everything is not going to at Castle Black. In fact, Dany is merely reaping what she sowed; the Night's Watch did not choose for the sticky situation it's in

  3. #5323

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post

    from Khaleesi's standpoint though, burning random family members is the fastest way to turn them all against you. so it was an asinine decision.
    Are you kidding? They are already against her. She showed some mercy and tried to pursue a just course and they supported an insurgency that led to the death of some of her troops and one of her closest advisers. Even the guy she is marrying is probably supporting the the Sons of the Harpy despite the facade of loyalty and all of that nonsense that he puts on. Bringing the heads of the most important and richest families in to see her dragons and then having one of them get gobbled up sends just as an effective message as anything Stannis has done. It shows she means business. And despite the fact that the guy eaten probably did have something to do with the Sons, it's certain that at least some of those men there did. Seeing that, and having the fear of God put into them by dragons serves a purpose. It could at least make some of them pull their support, or put pressure on those that do support the Sons to stop so things don't get out of hand. Of course it could backfire on her too.

    Stannis burning Mance was no less asinine by your own judgment because "He showed them who was boss" is exactly what Dany did with the dragons. And you don't think burning the one man that was ever able to unite the Wildlings together is a way to get them to turn on you? In reality all he accomplished was feeding the Red God, which in and of itself is superfluous, given the fact that Mance was not a real King and had no royal blood in his veins. The Northerners had no dog in the fight against Mance, if you've noticed they're busy with everything going on in the North as it is. It's quite evident throughout that literally NO ONE cares about what's happening at the Wall. And lastly, he got nothing from the Night's Watch. Oh, yay, he sated some desire they may have had for revenge. What did that earn him? Did he get Jon Snow's support to help him take Winterfell? No. Did he get more men to fill his ranks? No. All he got out of the whole venture is that he can say he got off his ass to save the realms of men from the Wildlings when no one else did and that he bailed out the Night's Watch. That might buy him some legitimacy south of the wall, but he didn't need to burn Mance to get any of that.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Are you kidding? They are already against her. She showed some mercy and tried to pursue a just course and they supported an insurgency that led to the death of some of her troops and one of her closest advisers. Even the guy she is marrying is probably supporting the the Sons of the Harpy despite the facade of loyalty and all of that nonsense that he puts on. Bringing the heads of the most important and richest families in to see her dragons and then having one of them get gobbled up sends just as an effective message as anything Stannis has done. It shows she means business. And despite the fact that the guy eaten probably did have something to do with the Sons, it's certain that at least some of those men there did. Seeing that, and having the fear of God put into them by dragons serves a purpose. It could at least make some of them pull their support, or put pressure on those that do support the Sons to stop so things don't get out of hand. Of course it could backfire on her too.
    And what proof do you have that ALL of them are against her? The fastest way to get people to join an insurgency is to put them all in the same boat. What effectively is murdering a few people gaining her? no one told her anything about the harpies because their plan is likely so subordinate that the heads of families aren't even really in control of whats going on. And what is the point of marrying hizdahr at this point? or reopening the fighting pits? the families aren't going to care because they've just been shown a brutal message of what happens to them whether they support dany or not (case in point hizdahr. In the end he was grouped with everyone else who hadn't supported dany from day 1).

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Stannis burning Mance was no less asinine by your own judgment because "He showed them who was boss" is exactly what Dany did with the dragons. And you don't think burning the one man that was ever able to unite the Wildlings together is a way to get them to turn on you? In reality all he accomplished was feeding the Red God, which in and of itself is superfluous, given the fact that Mance was not a real King and had no royal blood in his veins. The Northerners had no dog in the fight against Mance, if you've noticed they're busy with everything going on in the North as it is. It's quite evident throughout that literally NO ONE cares about what's happening at the Wall. And lastly, he got nothing from the Night's Watch. Oh, yay, he sated some desire they may have had for revenge. What did that earn him? Did he get Jon Snow's support to help him take Winterfell? No. Did he get more men to fill his ranks? No. All he got out of the whole venture is that he can say he got off his ass to save the realms of men from the Wildlings when no one else did and that he bailed out the Night's Watch. That might buy him some legitimacy south of the wall, but he didn't need to burn Mance to get any of that.
    Mance was actually guilty of a crime though, which is leading an insurection against the realm and for desertion. He was destined to die either way. All Stannis did was burn him, though he could have killed him a myriad of other ways though none would of had the same effect as burning. Stannis isn't trying to win any PR battles like dany. The Wildlings weren't going to follow him and neither was mance because he would have demanded they kneel like all normal people would after surrendering, but they were too prideful. The Northerners had no dog in the fight? did you watch season 4? It was not only the nightswatch which suffered casualties and the wildlings are the sworn enemies of the North. they've raided it intermittently for almost 8,000 years. Also,what exactly were you expecting the nightswatch to give him? they are sworn to protect the wall and stay out of the affairs of the realm. The most they could have really granted him was asylum and food as he is a King, but they couldn't have provided him much more than that (and there are even characters in the books that think that was going to far)

    and aslo since the changes to the storyline from the books, apparently Stannis already has his army ready to go and doesn't really need the northerners help to take the north. Also, Sansa Stark would have a better claim to Winterfell than Jon would so legitimizing him is kind of a irrelevant, though it would have been a nice gesture. But Jon is sworn to the watch and Stannis didn't force him.
    Last edited by RedGuard; May 13, 2015 at 10:34 AM.

  5. #5325

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    And what proof do you have that ALL of them are against her?
    I didn't say they were all against her, just that most of them were. Odds are they're all against her, though. Although she didn't need proof to make her point. The situation was clear. The Harpies don't exist without significant support from the Wise Masters. She took a hardline with the most influential of the of the Masters and gave them an opportunity to reconsider their positions. Anyway, we don't need absolute proof. There is no right to due process in this world, during these times.

    The fastest way to get people to join an insurgency is to put them all in the same boat. What effectively is murdering a few people gaining her? no one told her anything about the harpies because their plan is likely so subordinate that the heads of families aren't even really in control of whats going on.
    Not necessarily true. That really depends on the moderates. Either they tacitly allowed the others to support the insurgency, because they had no reason to oppose it, or they were active supporters. Now they have reasons to oppose it because she is specifically targeting those men that probably figured they were untouchable, or at least safe from any sort of retribution. If those that didn't like the previous system were not supporting the Harpies there's no reason to continue doing so now. It would force them to pick sides. If they were against Dany from the outset it will probably further entrench them, but it's obvious that doing things the just and lawful way wasn't going to get her anywhere. She wasn't trying to get information out of them. She was trying to scare them into stopping their illicit activity, or to put pressure on those who are so that they would stop. She provided incentive. A strong one, in the form of two hulking dragons that provide her with a certain degree of persuasion.

    And what is the point of marrying hizdahr at this point? or reopening the fighting pits? the families aren't going to care because they've just been shown a brutal message of what happens to them whether they support dany or not (case in point hizdahr. In the end he was grouped with everyone else who hadn't supported dany from day 1).
    The fighting pits thing is stupid. It's a weak plot line from Martin and it really doesn't serve a realistic purpose to provide 'peace', unless you were trying to distract a mob of plebs. In which case it would only serve to lower the temperature that's been rising among the freed slaves after she executed one. It wouldn't solve the Harpy problem. The marriage is also a bit silly in my opinion, but remember this is based on time when marrying into regimes and dynasties and so forth were supposed to created unions and political alliances. It might soothe some ruffles feathers among the Wise Masters because they could see it in a few different ways; a., it's an opportunity for one of their own to get the ear of the queen and he could either manipulate her, or one of them could manipulate him to do so. It also opens up an avenue for further plots to undermine her down the road. B., it illustrates that she's serious about being a part of Meereen, like she's not just passing through but instead is going to be there for a long time so they should understand that the time's are changing and they should pursue new means of the way in which they rule. And of course any number of others way they could see it. It is what it is. But he wasn't grouped in with them in support of them. He just didn't plead for his life in front of them. He still did when they were in private.

    Mance was actually guilty of a crime though, which is leading an insurection against the realm and for desertion. He was destined to die either way. All Stannis did was burn him, though he could have killed him a myriad of other ways though none would of had the same effect as burning.
    Yes, he was guilty of desertion. But the insurrection is a push. In reality he was just trying to get his people to safety. That's not an insurrection against the realms of men. They weren't a conquering army, either. They're just fleeing the White Walkers. In terms of the desertion, given what a minor infraction that was when weighed against the potential benefits Wildling support could garner Stannis it's rather asinine to do what he did. "All he did was burn him", yes, burn him alive. One of the most horribly painful ways to possibly kill someone. A favorite of the Mad King in fact. That just sends loads of good vibes out to all the Lords that Stannis wants to support him.

    Stannis isn't trying to win any PR battles like dany. The Wildlings weren't going to follow him and neither was mance because he would have demanded they kneel like all normal people would after surrendering, but they were too prideful.
    Who said Dany is trying to win a PR battle? Dany is trying to rule in a different kind of way than the realm has traditionally seen. Of course she's going to stumble and make mistakes along the way. Of course she's going to have to deal with the repercussions of her actions even if they were just. Stannis SHOULD be pursuing a PR battle. If there's anything we know about Westeros it's that justice does not always prevail. In fact it rarely does. Why would any Lord with scruples want a King that is pitiless and unremitting when it comes to delivering the King's justice, when we know that many of the Lords in Westeros aren't the most lawful citizens around? Beyond that, we already see the Night's Watch maneuvering to settle the Wildlings on the Gift. And they've got the Tormund guy essentially doing Jon's bidding. It really wouldn't have taken much to get the Wildlings to fight for Stannis in order to get what they wanted, which was safety from the White Walkers. Instead he burned their only King in front of them, which probably just reinforced their bias against bending the knee even more.

    The Northerners had no dog in the fight? did you watch season 4? It was not only the nightswatch which suffered casualties and the wildlings are the sworn enemies of the North. they've raided it intermittently for almost 8,000 years. Also,what exactly were you expecting the nightswatch to give him? they are sworn to protect the wall and stay out of the affairs of the realm. The most they could have really granted him was asylum and food as he is a King, but they couldn't have provided him much more than that (and there are even characters in the books that think that was going to far)
    And yet the North sent no troops to the wall. No men to bolster the defense. We don't even know who those peoples' Lord was. That you would think because one raid in a little village in the far North meant the North had a serious dog in the fight is silly. Especially against the back drop of what's going on with Roose Bolton, the recent betrayal and murder of Robb, etc etc. They have clearly have more important concerns. In terms of support, I didn't say I expected anything from the Night's Watch. But YOU listed it is as if killing Mance was good for Stannis because it sated a this lust for revenge that the Night's Watch had. Who cares? It gained Stannis nothing. Not killing Mance and trying to figure a way to bring the Wildlings over to his side would have served him better, and the Night's Watch and their arguments against that be damned. They can sit on top of their wall.

    and aslo since the changes to the storyline from the books, apparently Stannis already has his army ready to go and doesn't really need the northerners help to take the north. Also, Sansa Stark would have a better claim to Winterfell than Jon would so legitimizing him is kind of a irrelevant, though it would have been a nice gesture. But Jon is sworn to the watch and Stannis didn't force him.
    He doesn't have the men. If he had the men he wouldn't have tried to get the Wildlings, would he? Besides, his fight isn't done and over if he takes Winterfell. Beyond that how would Sansa have a better claim? She's a woman. Do you not realize that the North is agnatic succession? Like all of Westeros is agnatic except Dorne. Whether he's a bastard or not, if he's legitimized then he's Ned's son and has the better claim. The only reason Sansa's claim is even relevant right now is because it's thought that there are no Starks left but her.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    I didn't say they were all against her, just that most of them were. Odds are they're all against her, though. Although she didn't need proof to make her point. The situation was clear. The Harpies don't exist without significant support from the Wise Masters. She took a hardline with the most influential of the of the Masters and gave them an opportunity to reconsider their positions. Anyway, we don't need absolute proof. There is no right to due process in this world, during these times.
    well they're definitely all against her now so theres that. Her actions did nothing to improve their opinion of her, and her actions were quite hypocritical. At least Stannis is consistent in his punishments. Whether you agree with them or not is debateable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Not necessarily true. That really depends on the moderates. Either they tacitly allowed the others to support the insurgency, because they had no reason to oppose it, or they were active supporters. Now they have reasons to oppose it because she is specifically targeting those men that probably figured they were untouchable, or at least safe from any sort of retribution. If those that didn't like the previous system were not supporting the Harpies there's no reason to continue doing so now. It would force them to pick sides. If they were against Dany from the outset it will probably further entrench them, but it's obvious that doing things the just and lawful way wasn't going to get her anywhere. She wasn't trying to get information out of them. She was trying to scare them into stopping their illicit activity, or to put pressure on those who are so that they would stop. She provided incentive. A strong one, in the form of two hulking dragons that provide her with a certain degree of persuasion.
    All shes really done so far was invigorate the resistance against her. But she was doomed pretty much the moment she nailed the leaders of the city to crosses and let there sons roam free. If you are to injure someone, do it so that there is no possible way that they can take revenge. Her problem isnt necessarily that shes ruthless (as ruthless as Stannis) bu that she flip flops on every major issue. The Wise Masters see her as weak, and now they see her as a tyrant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    The fighting pits thing is stupid. It's a weak plot line from Martin and it really doesn't serve a realistic purpose to provide 'peace', unless you were trying to distract a mob of plebs. In which case it would only serve to lower the temperature that's been rising among the freed slaves after she executed one. It wouldn't solve the Harpy problem. The marriage is also a bit silly in my opinion, but remember this is based on time when marrying into regimes and dynasties and so forth were supposed to created unions and political alliances. It might soothe some ruffles feathers among the Wise Masters because they could see it in a few different ways; a., it's an opportunity for one of their own to get the ear of the queen and he could either manipulate her, or one of them could manipulate him to do so. It also opens up an avenue for further plots to undermine her down the road. B., it illustrates that she's serious about being a part of Meereen, like she's not just passing through but instead is going to be there for a long time so they should understand that the time's are changing and they should pursue new means of the way in which they rule. And of course any number of others way they could see it. It is what it is. But he wasn't grouped in with them in support of them. He just didn't plead for his life in front of them. He still did when they were in private.
    well I agree that by itself is a weak reason, but they'ved removed the other things which the masters demanded that she also grants in the books. She makes some compromises which are to both the freed slaves and masters benefits, not just reopening the magical arena that will solve all the problems.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Yes, he was guilty of desertion. But the insurrection is a push. In reality he was just trying to get his people to safety. That's not an insurrection against the realms of men. They weren't a conquering army, either. They're just fleeing the White Walkers. In terms of the desertion, given what a minor infraction that was when weighed against the potential benefits Wildling support could garner Stannis it's rather asinine to do what he did. "All he did was burn him", yes, burn him alive. One of the most horribly painful ways to possibly kill someone. A favorite of the Mad King in fact. That just sends loads of good vibes out to all the Lords that Stannis wants to support him.
    So if Edward Snowden managed to unite an army of a 100,000 men and invade america, he wouldn't be an insurrectionist as well as a deserter and a traitor? Its important to remember that Mance was once a man of the nights watch, which desertion from is punishable by death. The fact that he went north instead of south to bring wildlings back to attack the wall is a double-whammy, in todays lingo multiple life sentences. Stannis wouldn't have gotten wildling support, period. And if he had, he would have made the north turn against him for maybe a few thousand troops. The north could likely still scrounge together 10,000 plus if he had all the houses fighting for him, and he would need the north's support to go farther south, which he hopes to get by removing roose bolton. Also just because both Stannis and the Mad King burned people doesn't make them paralleled. The mad king burned people because he was crazy and he liked it. Stannis does it to please the followers of R'hollr and to send a message- there will be no mercy for those that defy me or seek to prey on the realm. Which makes LF "support" of Stannis equally baffling.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Who said Dany is trying to win a PR battle? Dany is trying to rule in a different kind of way than the realm has traditionally seen. Of course she's going to stumble and make mistakes along the way. Of course she's going to have to deal with the repercussions of her actions even if they were just. Stannis SHOULD be pursuing a PR battle. If there's anything we know about Westeros it's that justice does not always prevail. In fact it rarely does. Why would any Lord with scruples want a King that is pitiless and unremitting when it comes to delivering the King's justice, when we know that many of the Lords in Westeros aren't the most lawful citizens around? Beyond that, we already see the Night's Watch maneuvering to settle the Wildlings on the Gift. And they've got the Tormund guy essentially doing Jon's bidding. It really wouldn't have taken much to get the Wildlings to fight for Stannis in order to get what they wanted, which was safety from the White Walkers. Instead he burned their only King in front of them, which probably just reinforced their bias against bending the knee even more.
    Shes trying to keep the shambles of Slavers bay together by pleasing both sides, hence a PR battle. What she forgets is that Slavers bay has had slaves for thousands of years and a few months of conquering isn't going to remove the dogma people have about it. She's not going to change it overnight nor be playing nice, but she should have been burning people and murdering people from the start if she hoped to do that. Now is too late. She should have freed as many slaves as she could and sailed for westeros right away. an army of 10,000 isn't going to remove slavery. THey'll just swoop back in after shes gone. I only hope she'll learn from her mistakes in Mereen and not repeat them in westeros.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    And yet the North sent no troops to the wall. No men to bolster the defense. We don't even know who those peoples' Lord was. That you would think because one raid in a little village in the far North meant the North had a serious dog in the fight is silly. Especially against the back drop of what's going on with Roose Bolton, the recent betrayal and murder of Robb, etc etc. They have clearly have more important concerns. In terms of support, I didn't say I expected anything from the Night's Watch. But YOU listed it is as if killing Mance was good for Stannis because it sated a this lust for revenge that the Night's Watch had. Who cares? It gained Stannis nothing. Not killing Mance and trying to figure a way to bring the Wildlings over to his side would have served him better, and the Night's Watch and their arguments against that be damned. They can sit on top of their wall.
    The north sent most of the able bodied men south to fight in Robb's wars. The only ones left are needed to garrison the cities and castles, and the few hundred that were slaughtered by Ramsey/theon that Rodrick Cassel had with him. Burning Mance actually (in books at least) garners support of the umbers who wanted Mance dead because they are usually the first to feel the wrath of the wildlings when they invade through the bay of seals. What it gained Stannis in the Show is a favorable view from the north. He destroyed a wildling army whose first target would have been the north and he killed the deserter Mance Rayder, a threat to the north for a long time. That is a big PR boost as far as the norht is concerned, and by going after Roose he could easily unite the north against Roose who see him as a traitor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    He doesn't have the men. If he had the men he wouldn't have tried to get the Wildlings, would he? Besides, his fight isn't done and over if he takes Winterfell. Beyond that how would Sansa have a better claim? She's a woman. Do you not realize that the North is agnatic succession? Like all of Westeros is agnatic except Dorne. Whether he's a bastard or not, if he's legitimized then he's Ned's son and has the better claim. The only reason Sansa's claim is even relevant right now is because it's thought that there are no Starks left but her.
    Pretty sure a general always wants more troops if they are available. And if he didn't have enough troops he wouldnt be an utter fool and march south to suicide. He has enough troops but just barely. Their forces are even but Roose has the better position. A couple extra thousand wildlings would have certainly tipped the favor in his side. I think Sansa having the better claim is debatable, but shes a full blooded Stark. Not a half-blooded legitimized bastard. If that were true in all cases William the conqueror wouldn't of needed to take England.
    Last edited by RedGuard; May 13, 2015 at 02:47 PM.

  7. #5327

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Hmmm I seem to have stumbled into the Mudpit on my way to the GoT thread.

    Do continue

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee View Post
    Hmmm I seem to have stumbled into the Mudpit on my way to the GoT thread.

    Do continue
    I think everything that can be said has been said already. Pretty much this:

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Doesn't matter as long as she's hot, she can get away from anything like these.

  10. #5330

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    well they're definitely all against her now so theres that. Her actions did nothing to improve their opinion of her, and her actions were quite hypocritical. At least Stannis is consistent in his punishments. Whether you agree with them or not is debateable.
    Where is she more hypocritical than Stannis?
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
    Mangalore Design

  11. #5331

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    well they're definitely all against her now so theres that. Her actions did nothing to improve their opinion of her, and her actions were quite hypocritical. At least Stannis is consistent in his punishments. Whether you agree with them or not is debateable.
    How do you know if they're all against her? What should she have done instead? What do you think Stannis would have done if he was in her position?

    All shes really done so far was invigorate the resistance against her. But she was doomed pretty much the moment she nailed the leaders of the city to crosses and let there sons roam free. If you are to injure someone, do it so that there is no possible way that they can take revenge. Her problem isnt necessarily that shes ruthless (as ruthless as Stannis) bu that she flip flops on every major issue. The Wise Masters see her as weak, and now they see her as a tyrant.
    Again, it's a matter of her trying to figure out a way of ruling that is different than those that have come before her. She's young, and obviously naive, but that doesn't mean she's a hypocrite. She's just trying to figure things out. If anything it's evidence of how difficult ruling can be, even if you try to do the 'right' thing. Which is what she did by punishing the wise masters to start with. It might have been short-sighted. But to make comparisons to Stannis and say that he's such a better leader/ruler, I just don't see it. Neither are great. They are both making choices that I would not make, and sometimes they make good choices too. But we're the audience and we have the benefit of information they do not possess.


    So if Edward Snowden managed to unite an army of a 100,000 men and invade america, he wouldn't be an insurrectionist as well as a deserter and a traitor? Its important to remember that Mance was once a man of the nights watch, which desertion from is punishable by death. The fact that he went north instead of south to bring wildlings back to attack the wall is a double-whammy, in todays lingo multiple life sentences. Stannis wouldn't have gotten wildling support, period. And if he had, he would have made the north turn against him for maybe a few thousand troops. The north could likely still scrounge together 10,000 plus if he had all the houses fighting for him, and he would need the north's support to go farther south, which he hopes to get by removing roose bolton. Also just because both Stannis and the Mad King burned people doesn't make them paralleled. The mad king burned people because he was crazy and he liked it. Stannis does it to please the followers of R'hollr and to send a message- there will be no mercy for those that defy me or seek to prey on the realm. Which makes LF "support" of Stannis equally baffling.
    Lol, the Snowden comparison is very silly. In any event, Mance was a deserter yes, but there wasn't much known about him south of the wall. Only the Night's Watch talked about him and many didn't believe he'd even united the Wildlings until they were on their doorstep. And again, you say that the rest of country cares so much, if they did they would have stopped their squabbling among one another and sent aid to the wall. They did not. Also, the Stark's made a Wildling their captive and then she served them faithfully at Winterfell and no one there seems to have had any issues with that-- which indicates that most people don't simply hate the Wildlings. He'd certainly gain some enmity by getting them to fight for him, but that doesn't mean everyone in the North would raise arms against him. And it's not a 'few thousand troops'. The Wildling Host was massive.

    Also if you think that Stannis burning people alive to please the followers of a God that almost no one on Westeros supports wouldn't be perceived as crazy or negative by the vast majority of those that he wants to rule then I don't know what to say. It's just as bad. It looks just as crazy as the Mad King, or almost as crazy when the guy is burning people for some foreign god.

    Shes trying to keep the shambles of Slavers bay together by pleasing both sides, hence a PR battle. What she forgets is that Slavers bay has had slaves for thousands of years and a few months of conquering isn't going to remove the dogma people have about it. She's not going to change it overnight nor be playing nice, but she should have been burning people and murdering people from the start if she hoped to do that. Now is too late. She should have freed as many slaves as she could and sailed for westeros right away. an army of 10,000 isn't going to remove slavery. THey'll just swoop back in after shes gone. I only hope she'll learn from her mistakes in Mereen and not repeat them in westeros.
    Maybe, maybe not. I always find it rather stupid when people say "Oh it existed for x number of years it can't ever change". History is littered with leaders that changed traditions, and even religions and none of it ever goes smoothly. It doesn't mean things don't/cannot change. Having things go badly for her is what creates the drama that makes the show/book entertaining. If it just went perfectly/unrealistically and the Wise Masters excepted her rule it would be boring and uninteresting. I just find it funny that people think it's stupid.

    The north sent most of the able bodied men south to fight in Robb's wars. The only ones left are needed to garrison the cities and castles, and the few hundred that were slaughtered by Ramsey/theon that Rodrick Cassel had with him. Burning Mance actually (in books at least) garners support of the umbers who wanted Mance dead because they are usually the first to feel the wrath of the wildlings when they invade through the bay of seals. What it gained Stannis in the Show is a favorable view from the north. He destroyed a wildling army whose first target would have been the north and he killed the deserter Mance Rayder, a threat to the north for a long time. That is a big PR boost as far as the norht is concerned, and by going after Roose he could easily unite the north against Roose who see him as a traitor.
    Which he could have done with Wildling support. In fact in the books most Wildlings DO bend the knee to him. Most northerners don't lend him support despite burning 'Mance'. And only a portion of the Umbers declare for him. And they're the only house to do so besides the Karstarks who are still traitorous pricks anyway.

    Pretty sure a general always wants more troops if they are available. And if he didn't have enough troops he wouldnt be an utter fool and march south to suicide. He has enough troops but just barely. Their forces are even but Roose has the better position. A couple extra thousand wildlings would have certainly tipped the favor in his side. I think Sansa having the better claim is debatable, but shes a full blooded Stark. Not a half-blooded legitimized bastard. If that were true in all cases William the conqueror wouldn't of needed to take England.
    Yes, and as you've said given that most of the North's manpower went south and left only garrisons and so forth in the North then it makes the Wildlings one of the largest pools of manpower in the north. Anyway, what are you talking about with William the Conqueror? That's not even comparable. That's a vastly different situation. He may have been a legitimized bastard, but that was for Normandy, which he became the ruler of (with some difficulty) which only reinforces my point about Jon Snow's claim. Westeros practices agnatic succession. That's it man. Bastard or not. If he's legitimate there you go, because he's a son. The conquering of England was because he said the childless King Edward promised him the throne, he was a cousin, once removed, and he was opposed by Harold. Entirely different situation from Jon Snow being legitimized in the North.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Stannis never would have taken from slavers bay. He probably would have killed the masters and burned the cities to the ground like Dany sould have done. If Stannis had an army of Unsullied and three dragons every knee in westeros would have bent already. I had a long reply to your post captain Jin but my internet went scitzo and I lost it. Don't feel like continuing this converstaion anyway. Point is, Dany has made and is making very decisions in Mereen. I never said Stannis is better than Dany but hes more experienced and actually reads books on ruling and warfare. Maybe dany should read a book on mereen, I'm sure theres a library somewhere close by. Probably in the same pyramid shes usurped. but shes too busy banging daario.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    Stannis never would have taken from slavers bay. He probably would have killed the masters and burned the cities to the ground like Dany sould have done. If Stannis had an army of Unsullied and three dragons every knee in westeros would have bent already. I had a long reply to your post captain Jin but my internet went scitzo and I lost it. Don't feel like continuing this converstaion anyway. Point is, Dany has made and is making very decisions in Mereen. I never said Stannis is better than Dany but hes more experienced and actually reads books on ruling and warfare. Maybe dany should read a book on mereen, I'm sure theres a library somewhere close by. Probably in the same pyramid shes usurped. but shes too busy banging daario.
    You offer pretty crappy advice of what Dany should have done to the point that it makes her errors the far better choice given she did try to do actually sensible stuff.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    Stannis never would have taken from slavers bay. He probably would have killed the masters and burned the cities to the ground like Dany sould have done. If Stannis had an army of Unsullied and three dragons every knee in westeros would have bent already. I had a long reply to your post captain Jin but my internet went scitzo and I lost it. Don't feel like continuing this converstaion anyway. Point is, Dany has made and is making very decisions in Mereen. I never said Stannis is better than Dany but hes more experienced and actually reads books on ruling and warfare. Maybe dany should read a book on mereen, I'm sure theres a library somewhere close by. Probably in the same pyramid shes usurped. but shes too busy banging daario.
    That's all assuming Stannis has the patience to train and thus control the dragons (if that's even possible, although the Targaryens 300 years ago managed it). Something tells me he's not the patient type, seeing how he was quick to attack the capital and quick to leave the Wall to attack the Boltons without building Wildling support. I'll give you the point about the Unsullied, though. To Dany's credit, however, she has managed to take several cities with her Unsullied army.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's all assuming Stannis has the patience to train and thus control the dragons (if that's even possible, although the Targaryens 300 years ago managed it). Something tells me he's not the patient type, seeing how he was quick to attack the capital and quick to leave the Wall to attack the Boltons without building Wildling support. I'll give you the point about the Unsullied, though. To Dany's credit, however, she has managed to take several cities with her Unsullied army.
    Stannis never rushes into conflict without reason though, when attacking King's Landing he had the full support of the Stormlands and only the Tyrells unforseen sidechange allowed the defenders to win, while in the North he has to make his move before winter fully arrives unless he wants to starve in Castle Black. Stannis doesn't lack patience, he just likes to strike first.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    You offer pretty crappy advice of what Dany should have done to the point that it makes her errors the far better choice given she did try to do actually sensible stuff.
    so sitting around waiting to be beseiged by the armies of slavers bay and the armies/navies of the free cities is a better alternative to you than what I suggested? She has enemies within and from without. Shes in a precarious position. I can't believe she really thought dismantling Slaver's bay only source of trade would go smoothly for her and that everyone would suddenly accept her as queen? Its beyond Naive. its foolish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's all assuming Stannis has the patience to train and thus control the dragons (if that's even possible, although the Targaryens 300 years ago managed it). Something tells me he's not the patient type, seeing how he was quick to attack the capital and quick to leave the Wall to attack the Boltons without building Wildling support. I'll give you the point about the Unsullied, though. To Dany's credit, however, she has managed to take several cities with her Unsullied army.
    I think Stannis would be in a better position to train them than dany. At least he has things he can read on "Dragonstone" which could assist him. And who says he need be the one to train them? Im pretty sure by the end of this story Dany won't be the only one with a dragon.

    A good article I found on Stannis (slight book spoilers, read with caution): https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/0...he-mannifesto/
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Wildling Vanguard
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It is revealed in A Dance with Dragons that Stannis intended to use the Thenns as a part of his vanguard during his campaign in the north:
    “The wildling men will form my van. The Magnar will command them, with their own chiefs as serjeants. First, though, we must needs arm them.”
    — JON IV, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
    This is despite the fact that they had only immediately prior been among the most loyal and dangerous of Mance Rayder’s wilding army.
    Stannis even intends to reward Sigorn of Thenn and Rattleshirt with lands:
    “Sire, some claim that you mean to grant lands and castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar of Thenn.”
    “Who told you that?”
    The talk was all over Castle Black.
    — JON I, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
    Once again we have people who imperiled Stannis, his campaign and the realms he means to rule; and he does not punish — he pardons them and offers them lands in exchange for service.
    Stannis explicitly explains the reasons for these choices: its because he finds them useful, they bolster his forces:
    “The Karstarks have sworn to join us at the Dreadfort, and we will have our wildlings as well. Three hundred men of fighting age. Lord Harwood made a count as they were passing through the gate. Their women fight as well.”
    — JON IV, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
    * * *
    The Burning of Mance
    Stannis actually sees quite a bit of value in Mance. However, he declares that he must burn Rayder:
    “I know that,” Stannis said, unhappily. “I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I’ll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder’s life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms.”
    “The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance.”
    “I mean to. I’ll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors.
    — JON I, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
    Mance has done little more than oathbreaking, Jon points out, because Mance was outside the realm of the King’s laws. He suggests that Mance is of great use.
    At one point Stannis goes so far as to point out that it is Mance who is going to sentence himself to death, and that Stannis is reluctant to do so:
    “Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder.” He ground his teeth. “A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames.”
    — JON XII, A STORM OF SWORDS
    And yet Stannis does not actually burn Mance, he executes Rattleshirt in his place, disguised as Mance. Per the previous essays in the Mannifesto, we know that it is because Mance proves invaluable to Stannis’s campaign against the Boltons.
    Why was Stannis so deceptive about it?
    Couldn’t he just declare a pardon for Mance?
    Couldn’t he just have dictated terms to Jon that Mance was to be spared?
    No.
    Stannis had to burn “Mance” because he needed to dismantle the idea of the King-Beyond-the-Wall in order to help compel a wildling surrender. He also needed to do it to display his authority to the northmen and the Night’s Watch.
    The reasons for Stannis’s secrecy regarding Mance’s execution have already been discussed in the Mannifesto, in Operating in the Dark.



    "Spoiler in tags". Its right there in the title. Do it.
    Last edited by Påsan; May 14, 2015 at 05:18 PM.

  17. #5337

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Things are getting real now.

    That ending though. I was hoping for Stannis' army to show up to interrupt though. One of the few times I genuinely felt bad for a character.

    I find myself caring less for Arya's storyline. I felt like that was the low point of the show.

    And Tommen, well he gets a come on man for being the most non existent king he could be.

  18. #5338
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Arya storyline was slow and bad, king's landing stupid and bad, dorne and north embarrassing and bad. Guess it didn't help there's nothing left in the books i cared to see in the show but I'm kinda losing any real motivation to watch the coming episodes. There's what 4 left and really nothing of any consequence has happened.
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    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Tommen needs to grow some balls. He's got an army of dudes in plate armor with swords and shields vs an army of dudes in robes with sticks.
    ttt
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  20. #5340
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 5 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    You would think at that point Tommen would at least say something, but no, complete silence. How are you even suppose to play the name game? Convincingly tell a lie? I heard the rape scene was even more disturbing it the book. I don't think it was the worst thing to watch since a baby got its throat slit in Season 2 and the Red Wedding. The creepy sadistic music didn't help though. Theon's actor was great too.
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