Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[karo]

Not in the books it's not. In the books, they all have more or less RL gear.

Also, there is no such thing as feudal armor.

No it is not in the book that they have a RL armour it is only in your own imagination that they do. Every person sees it totally differently when they read the books.

[EireEmerald]

Not in the books it's not. In the books, they all have more or less RL gear.

Also, there is no such thing as feudal armor.

Jesus stop being so pretentious, armour that people would have worn at the time that the series is based! There. ing hell.

[Manco]

Blatta has the kiddy version of the books that come with pictures.

[Bobz]

Blatta has the kiddy version of the books that come with pictures.

No, that's definitely not the kiddy version...

[Mangalore]

Not in the books it's not. In the books, they all have more or less RL gear.

Also, there is no such thing as feudal armor.

What I remember the few more descriptive armor and equipment in the books is actually way more fantasyish, e.g. the reason for the ridiculous tournament armor of Loras.

Also the Northmen have pretty slick brigantine types of plated armor, the Greyjoys have surprisingly reasonable types of armor (even though I imagined them less with armor though they make fun of sailors not wearing armor on a ship in the books), the Dragonstone troops have reasonable chainmail plated types (pretty close to Ottoman/Arab heavy armor types) and the only unfitting part of armor about the Lannisters are their helmets.

The standardization is simply so you can easily distinguish where a soldier belongs. I was more annoyed about the Borgias - you know, the real history show - having the whole French army in the same suit of armor wearing blue cloaks than some fantasy kingdoms doing so. The way feualism seems to work is shaky best anyway (e.g. you don't have the clear hierarchy of titles you would usually need to properly distribute responsibility and land for a feudal society... you usually only get Houses and knights).

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

What I remember the few more descriptive armor and equipment in the books is actually way more fantasyish, e.g. the reason for the ridiculous tournament armor of Loras.

The tournament armor of Loras isn't fantasy, since some real-lofe examples were just as ridiculous. The rest is more or less realistic - a mix of plate, mail and some other random bits all mashed together. Halfhelms, full-helms - presumably open faced and closed helmets. Not a single passage suggests that Lannister troops wear laminated Samurai armor and rodoculously wide, bug-looking helmets, or that every single Stormlander has a cheek-guarded one-piece helmet with a stag on top. Considering that GRRM actually cites a bunch of historical references in his website, makes the proposition that his world has to have HBO style armor is really unfounded.

As for the feudalism - I suggest you read the books, again if necessary. It's pretty damn clear that the world has feudalism, or at least a bastard feudalism-ish thing going on. Closer to late medieval than high medieval, judging by the large amounts of troops personally fielded by magnates, rather than a levy of various-ranked men owing allegiance only to the king or lord paramount.

[Bobz]

As for the feudalism - I suggest you read the books, again if necessary. It's pretty damn clear that the world has feudalism, or at least a bastard feudalism-ish thing going on. Closer to late medieval than high medieval, judging by the large amounts of troops personally fielded by magnates, rather than a levy of various-ranked men owing allegiance only to the king or lord paramount.

It is actually quite a simple feudal system compared to historical examples. In Westeros, the nobility is either ranked as a Lord or a Knight, whereas in real life there was a large hierarchy of titles, Dukes, Earls, Viscounts, etc, plus the temporal power the church and it's Bishops sometimes held. Then in real life it was common for landowners to hold titles and property across the Kingdom, and even in multiple countries - such as they were in Medieval times. This of course led to all sorts of interesting situations, such as the Norman Kings of England nominally being vassals of the King of France, or in the Holy Roman Empire when Lords held land both in and out. There isn't much of that in George's world, every vassal seems to hold land within the territory of his immediate lord right up to the top, so the lords seem to be easily unified behind one of the great houses.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Except for one notable exception we shall see soon...

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

It is actually quite a simple feudal system compared to historical examples. In Westeros, the nobility is either ranked as a Lord or a Knight, whereas in real life there was a large hierarchy of titles, Dukes, Earls, Viscounts, etc, plus the temporal power the church and it's Bishops sometimes held. Then in real life it was common for landowners to hold titles and property across the Kingdom, and even in multiple countries - such as they were in Medieval times. This of course led to all sorts of interesting situations, such as the Norman Kings of England nominally being vassals of the King of France, or in the Holy Roman Empire when Lords held land both in and out. There isn't much of that in George's world, every vassal seems to hold land within the territory of his immediate lord right up to the top, so the lords seem to be easily unified behind one of the great houses.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Except for one notable exception we shall see soon...

Well, no, cadet branches scattered around the North suggest that at some point, a lord of one house or another inherited scattered pieces of land. Also, the dukes, counts, marquesses, viscounts and whatnot were just cosmetic titles - what mattered was the amount of land they owned, and the number of retainers they had. The only lords we ever see in Westeros would be the equivalent of dukes (Bolton, Manderly, Tarly) or hereditary viceroys (lords paramount). The more minor nobility act like retainers of their lords, which is again detailed by Manderly, who has about a dozen barons under him and a large number of knights banneret. aren't even necessarily his by feudal obligation, but by favor and such - typical of bastard feudalism. All lords within a kingdom follow their great lord, because the great lord of one of Westerosi kingdoms is on the same level as the king of France, power and hierarchy wise. And even then there's infighting, as seen in the Bolton gambit. It's the only such case we can observe directly, but nothing suggests it's not common elsewhere (Blackwoods and Brackens, anyone?).

Finally, I already told you several times that this is more reminiscent of late medieval than early medieval feudalism, since the power is concentrated in the hands of the upper echelon nobility, as can be seen by the leadership and organization of armies - rather than having lots of small retinues of individual levied barons and knights, the forces of Westeros, much like those of Wars of the Roses or the HRE, consist of rather large armies belonging to the major noble houses/individuals. Even though they are raised from among the minor nobility (and possibly rural gentry), they are outfitted in the liveries of their overlord - which suggests that they are not doing regular feudal duty, in which case their colors would be those of their immediate superiors, if any, but serving as indirect retainers. Another shout out to the wars of the roses is the use of retainers in politics, espionage and such - like the various mercenaries and civilians working for Tyrion, Varys, Cersei and Littlefinger in King's Landing.

Yes, GRRM's feudalism is simplified, but it's not nearly as distant from real life examples as you might think.

[TheDarkKnight]

http://www.spoilertv.com/2012/10/gam...et-photos.html

Set photos for season 3. Good to see some stuff going on.

[beckyolt]

Where are they going to film the Slaver's Bay scenes? Unsullied look pretty weird though. I thought those guards in the scene at Qarth's gates were Unsullied.

Missandei and Daario were horribly casted BTW.

And I'm really worried with the path they're taking the Tyrion/Shae relationship. It just feels stupid and unrealistic. I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin kills Shae and the producers make this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tyrion's motivation to kill Tywin.

since most viewers don't know who Tysha is - they should've brought her up more times in season 2.

[Soviet]

Those photos look like absolute . I'm done. *retrieves revolver and blows ing brains out*

[Bobz]

[COLOR=black]Where are they going to film the Slaver's Bay scenes? Unsullied look pretty weird though. I thought those guards in the scene at Qarth's gates were Unsullied.

Missandei and Daario were horribly casted BTW.

The Slaver's Bay scenes are filmed in Morocco, and I believe they've almost finished now.

On Missandei, you might want to remember she is a different character from the child in the books. She is meant to be Dany's replacement handmaiden, since the others have been killed off.

[beckyolt]

The Slaver's Bay scenes are filmed in Morocco, and I believe they've almost finished now.

On Missandei, you might want to remember she is a different character from the child in the books. She is meant to be Dany's replacement handmaiden, since the others have been killed off.

I always pictured slaver's Bay as Egypt. And they're making her a different character? Wow,great,more idiotic changes, that's exactly what we need after season 2.

[EireEmerald]

Those photos look like absolute . I'm done. *retrieves revolver and blows ing brains out*

cumon bro! Maybe people in Slavers Bay just look like .

and you like SONS OF ANARCHY?? I am watching it right now, really enjoying tit!

[Soviet]

and you like SONS OF ANARCHY?? I am watching it right now, really enjoying tit!

Who doesn't like tit? Yeah, I haven't started season five because I'm at college and my schedule is retarded, but I'm all about that . One of my favorite shows. I bet you're liking that Ireland visit in there aren't you??

[EireEmerald]

Who doesn't like tit? Yeah, I haven't started season five because I'm at college and my schedule is retarded, but I'm all about that . One of my favorite shows. I bet you're liking that Ireland visit in there aren't you??

Actually no I hated that Ireland visit. It painted Ireland in a weird light, and the accents were . Also, Unionist Policemen don't have southern Irish accents, xD. The IRA are not as active as the show would suggest either.(which is a good thing). Unless I am being kept out of the loop on whats going on in this country.

I do love tits, but I also love the show. I much prefer the portrayal of the Irish in Boardwalk Empire

[Soviet]

Actually no I hated that Ireland visit. It painted Ireland in a weird light, and the accents were . Also, Unionist Policemen don't have southern Irish accents, xD. The IRA are not as active as the show would suggest either.(which is a good thing). Unless I am being kept out of the loop on whats going on in this country.

I do love tits, but I also love the show. I much prefer the portrayal of the Irish in Boardwalk Empire

I actually do agree. Season 3 was kind of poor. Considering the IRA is disarmed (correct?) I found the whole storyline kind of poor too. Season 4 is better than 3 by far, and I love Boardwalk Empire except for the fact that the best character is ing dead (I haven't started Season 3 on that one). But there are tits in that one.

[Mangalore]

The tournament armor of Loras isn't fantasy, since some real-lofe examples were just as ridiculous.

Not the types you wore when you went to a place where you might get killed. That armor is pretty consistent in its protection suite of the time if shifting in some fashion aspects. Most important feature for plate: You don't have nicks and cranies anywhere it might catch a blade/lance and get you killed.

The rest is more or less realistic - a mix of plate, mail and some other random bits all mashed together. Halfhelms, full-helms - presumably open faced and closed helmets. Not a single passage suggests that Lannister troops wear laminated Samurai armor and rodoculously wide, bug-looking helmets, or that every single Stormlander has a cheek-guarded one-piece helmet with a stag on top. Considering that GRRM actually cites a bunch of historical references in his website, makes the proposition that his world has to have HBO style armor is really unfounded.

And the proposition something is not mentioned in the books and something is written on a website is not unfounded? GRRM actually does not go into great detail about this kind of stuff and where he does (usual noble/knightly armor) it is leaning towards the fantastic because no sane medieval knight would wear that outside a parade.

All the armor types presented in the show were in use around Europe and the Mediterran. Assuming Westeros of at least this size and the fact they have distinct cultural areas would make it absolutely acceptable to assume that Polish Hussaria, Kievean Rus, Ottoman sipahi, Scandinavian Vikings, English or French knights, German Landsknecht and the odd Khanate would have variation through all these types of armor and prefer specific styles and decoration in their area.

If you remove the feudal aspect and make it a bastard feualism with pretty much random specifications they could just as well be as sophisticated as the Romans to issue standardized equipment requirements and from central magazines and armories overseen by the noble houses.

The easier explanation would be: It helps to visually differentiate between the factions and characterize them: Vain Lannisters get heavily decorated lacquered armor, pragmatic Starks practical brigandine armor, Renly forces again gilded, decorated armor, cool Stannis we again see in practical heavy mail with reinforced plates based on Near Eastern styles.
I'd give you the Lannister helmet as stupid but this and the veiled Gold Cloaks also say something about its wearers aka that they are the most ruthless ones

As for the feudalism - I suggest you read the books, again if necessary. It's pretty damn clear that the world has feudalism, ...

Don't be so obnoxious. Thank you.

Bastard feudalism is precisely the term for the era when the feudal levy had ended. It has as much to do with the feudal levy as national socialism has with socialism. You saw the same thing in the Roman Republic. You get no definitive social / economic structure from the books other than there being nobles who got enough money and patrons to raise bannerets and knights who like to fight. While we know that the seven great houses rule like kings in their own lands we hardly know much about what any lesser vasall can or cannot do or what actual position he has.
The tons of titles during those times actually had meaning, they were only cosmetic when absolutism had been securely established. Before that it determined quite alot, from who your actual superior was (king or duke), wether you were among parliament, if you had tax privileges, what your duties were etc etc. We know none of the titles used by the lesser Houses.

Sure, there is some vasall relationship going on but how it actually works and thus how armies are actually raised is rather fuzzy. GRRM usually paints with broad strokes so you can fill in the blanks with your imagination.


I find it crazy, how people think their imagination or even GRRM's is the only valid one for the show when GRRM didn't even write much precisely in the books. Saying he wanted to write something akin to the War of the Roses doesn't mean any of the stuff which actually not definitely described most of the time has to look or work like the War of the Roses. He could use the same conflict and put it in China and it would work mostly the same.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Not the types you wore when you went to a place where you might get killed. That armor is pretty consistent in its protection suite of the time if shifting in some fashion aspects. Most important feature for plate: You don't have nicks and cranies anywhere it might catch a blade/lance and get you killed.

I take that you have never seen tournament armor from the late medieval period and renaissance. That being said, HBO's version of Loras's helmet would be useless in the joust - the bar-visor was used in melees.

See stuff like this:


The rest I'll answer when I get back home.

[ccllnply]

When you get home can you spoiler that picture as well?

Personally, I prefer this image of Loras Tyrell

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: