Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[Stavroforos]

Why do we believe everything about Nan's story?

[mike^_^]

Why do we believe everything about Nan's story?

Because it is the only source, at the end of the day. Details she has provided have turned out to be largely true. If approached with the understanding that these stories have been passed down orally over the generations, and are imperfect, if you look at them under that lens, they seem to be pretty faithful. She isn't just some old coot who doesn't know any better, conversely she is not an avatar of Martin to give all the historical details perfectly and without contradiction. For example, according to Old Nan, " The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children. "

We know that is not absolutely true, but isn't it curious how we basically saw that very thing unfold last episode? Craster's wives offer their babies to the Other King who turns them into Others. The core of her stories are largely accurate, so far.

[conon394]

LOL!!! I think it's funny that between this season and last it seems like Tommen aged by like 10 years. Old Tommen plays his cards right and a couple more secret meetings and he'll be rounding the bases.

Well you have to admit the show has a real conundrum in the way the world used to work (and how GRRM decided to describe his world on that basis) vs modern expectations - 10/12 year old prostitutes or nude performers and 8/9 year old midshipmen dying for king and country and being in the chain of command just does not compute well. Not to mention depicting it would amount to breaking laws and present real difficulty in finding actors. I grant they should have aged Tommen from the start knowing the story line.

[Shneckie]

I wouldn't even put down Tommen's older age to what the writers are planning in regards to Margaery. Remember, we were introduced to Tommen and Myrcella in Winterfell right from the start of Season 1. They need to age in relation to the Stark children.

[tarvu]

Because it is the only source, at the end of the day. Details she has provided have turned out to be largely true. If approached with the understanding that these stories have been passed down orally over the generations, and are imperfect, if you look at them under that lens, they seem to be pretty faithful. She isn't just some old coot who doesn't know any better, conversely she is not an avatar of Martin to give all the historical details perfectly and without contradiction. For example, according to Old Nan, " The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children. "

We know that is not absolutely true, but isn't it curious how we basically saw that very thing unfold last episode? Craster's wives offer their babies to the Other King who turns them into Others. The core of her stories are largely accurate, so far.

The books, and I think the series also are very clear that Craster does not see himself as a wildling (of course most wildlings don't see themselves as a singular group and are very different).

It is obvious in all of the chapters on Mance though that they do not understand the others other than needing to burn their dead so they aren't turned into wights by them, and they certainly are not engaging in giving them their male children. That is something only Craster did, as part of his personal "pact" with them.

Mance has rallied the rest of the north to escape them/winter so I think it is clear they are for the most part not working with/reproducing with the others.

[mike^_^]

The books, and I think the series also are very clear that Craster does not see himself as a wildling (of course most wildlings don't see themselves as a singular group and are very different).

That is irrelevant. I'm not concerned whether Craster sees himself as a Wildling, or a pink elephant. He serves the Gods. He gives them male babies, and if he doesnt have any of those, he gives them sheep, then dogs, then they don't know what. Im concerned with what's actually happening and how that might be related to us through a corrupted and imperfect oral history. The ongoings at Craster's fit Old Nan's general theme of the Others quite nicely. Craster is shunned by the Wildlings, but for whatever reason he is allowed to exist peacefully in his little world. Why? He doesn't hide the fact that he gives his sons to White Walkers. Crasters wives identify the White Walkers as Crasters "sons". He is quite open about this, and proud too. The Wildlings must know what he is doing, yet he is allowed to exist there pretty much defenseless. In Wildling culture it's not yours if you can't keep it, why is he left alone?

It is obvious in all of the chapters on Mance though that they do not understand the others other than needing to burn their dead so they aren't turned into wights by them, and they certainly are not engaging in giving them their male children. That is something only Craster did, as part of his personal "pact" with them.

No one claimed that the Wildlings en masse sacrifice their children to White Walkers. Old Nan does imply this, but she is giving us a re-telling of oral histories. It may even be true that the Wildlings as whole did this, far in the past.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

What is the difference between the Others, the White Walkers and the Wights? I was under the impression that these terms are interchangable and that they all refer to the frozen zombies.

[mike^_^]

Others = White Walkers

Wights = Re-animated dead

Some people believe that the Other King we saw may be a "true" Other, and the Others seen before were the "half-human hybrids". Not sure what to make of that, myself

[Captain Jin]

The funny thing is that Natalie Dormer is like 31 and is going to marry a 14 year old... ok.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

How are the White Walkers different from being reanimated dead? That army of corpses which defeated the Night's Watch last season were White Walkers, weren't they?

[mike^_^]

How are the White Walkers different from being reanimated dead? That army of corpses which defeated the Night's Watch last season were White Walkers, weren't they?

^ White Walker/Other

However you want to classify them, they are ice-magic beings of some kind.



^ a wight. He has been re-animated by the "white cold" , which emanates from the Others, or comes out of the Heart of Winter, or beyond, or something. It's unknown if this is something that the Others can choose to control(the white cold), or if it's just the natural state of affairs north of the Wall. They do seem to have some form of control over the re-animated bodies.

The White Walkers are not re-animated dead, and any thoughts otherwise were soundly put to rest this past Sunday. They are basically ice-elves, or faeries

[Caesar Germanico]

They are basically ice-elves, or faeries

Indeed, and for this reason I find the way the WW are usually presented (make up, costumes ecc) in the show is incorrect, they give too much the "zombie" vibe (hence why Timoleon and many tv show only people are confused) and are fairly different from how GRRM describes them in the books.

[Roma_Victrix]

LOL!!! I think it's funny that between this season and last it seems like Tommen aged by like 10 years. Old Tommen plays his cards right and a couple more secret meetings and he'll be rounding the bases.

On this issue I'm such a hypocrite, through and through, I'll readily admit.

I get the creeps when I see the older man Little Finger trying to take advantage of poor little helpless Sansa, trying to get his hands beneath her robes. What a detestable, male pig. It's just plain old pedophilia. Gross!

Yet the moment I see Tommen about to score with the much older Margaery who is basically doing the same thing as Little Finger only she's the opposite sex, I'm all like: "Awwww Yeeaaaah, Boy! YOU GO GET THAT! TOMMEN #1! TOMMEN #1! Niceeeeee. This little guy deserves an ice cream and a pat on the back! Watch out, peoples! We got a little playa up in here!"

I love my double standards.

Margaery even kissed Tommen on the forehead; I'm sure everyone watching was like "Aww! That's so sweet!" Imagine if Little Finger did that to Sansa. Everyone watching would be saying in unison: "Ew! That pervy old PERVERT!"



"Remember...our little secret."

Dude, I would have so many secrets with this chick, like fifty of them before the wedding day, I swear.

That look on Tommen's face: priceless. He's like: "Dude...this 's for real. I'm going to score!"


Ah. I could honestly spend sixty threads talking about this one scene. Sorry for the rant.

[tarvu]

That is irrelevant. I'm not concerned whether Craster sees himself as a Wildling, or a pink elephant. He serves the Gods. He gives them male babies, and if he doesnt have any of those, he gives them sheep, then dogs, then they don't know what. Im concerned with what's actually happening and how that might be related to us through a corrupted and imperfect oral history. The ongoings at Craster's fit Old Nan's general theme of the Others quite nicely. Craster is shunned by the Wildlings, but for whatever reason he is allowed to exist peacefully in his little world. Why? He doesn't hide the fact that he gives his sons to White Walkers. Crasters wives identify the White Walkers as Crasters "sons". He is quite open about this, and proud too. The Wildlings must know what he is doing, yet he is allowed to exist there pretty much defenseless. In Wildling culture it's not yours if you can't keep it, why is he left alone?



No one claimed that the Wildlings en masse sacrifice their children to White Walkers. Old Nan does imply this, but she is giving us a re-telling of oral histories. It may even be true that the Wildlings as whole did this, far in the past.

I think Craster is unmolested by other wildlings because he is so close to the wall and there are regular ranger expeditions that go out at least to his territory, he had a relationship with Mormont and was allowed to live there whereas other wildlings if caught would likely have been killed/driven off.

It is possible it has something to do with the white walkers and other wildlings were afraid of stories they had heard about him, they certainly aren't all afraid of the Night's Watch, but I thought it was pretty clear in the first 3 books or so that his situation had a kind of pseudo protection agreement from the watch in return for giving them temporary shelter/supplies at times. Even if they decided to raid his little house and steal what little livestock he had and his wives, they couldn't hold it being that near to the wall.

Also Craster doesn't tell Mormont or anyone else that he gives the sons to the white walkers, they assume he just kills them by abandoning them to exposure. So I wouldn't say he is open about it, most people seem to doubt white walkers even exist until they are presented with proof even some wildling characters (though they seem less deterministic about their beliefs "you know nothing, Jon Snow. Etc.).

[mike^_^]

Also Craster doesn't tell Mormont or anyone else that he gives the sons to the white walkers, they assume he just kills them by abandoning them to exposure. So I wouldn't say he is open about it, most people seem to doubt white walkers even exist until they are presented with proof even some wildling characters (though they seem less deterministic about their beliefs "you know nothing, Jon Snow. Etc.).

He confirms for Jon that Craster is giving his sons to the "wood" , that he has known for a while , and that all of the rangers know. Mormont states quite clearly that the " Wildlings serve crueller Gods than you or I " to Jon, just like he does in the show, in relation to Craster. Then there's the exchange between Jon & Gilly, and basically the same stuff is said later during the mutiny :

" He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. "
" What gods? "
" The cold gods, she said. The ones in the night. The white shadows. "

To your last point, in Game of Thrones, and this is another bit of dialogue that is recreated on the show, Mormont tells Tyrion that White Walkers have been spotted near East-Watch. Mormont is well aware of the White Walkers, and again who are the crueller Gods than the ones that Mormont and Jon serve (they are Northmen who serve the Old Gods)? That would be the White Walkers. Those boys are Craster's offerings to his crueller Gods. I.E. Others

I think Craster is unmolested by other wildlings because he is so close to the wall and there are regular ranger expeditions that go out at least to his territory, he had a relationship with Mormont and was allowed to live there whereas other wildlings if caught would likely have been killed/driven off.

It is possible it has something to do with the white walkers and other wildlings were afraid of stories they had heard about him, they certainly aren't all afraid of the Night's Watch, but I thought it was pretty clear in the first 3 books or so that his situation had a kind of pseudo protection agreement from the watch in return for giving them temporary shelter/supplies at times. Even if they decided to raid his little house and steal what little livestock he had and his wives, they couldn't hold it being that near to the wall.

Yes, but the watch is weaker than ever, and has been deteriorating for a while.. they complain to Tyrion that they are stretched thin on manpower to patrol the Wall or the wilderness.. surely you can get a couple bad dudes like the Weeper to come through there, huff and puff, blow Crasters pathetic hovel down, steal his goodies - then leave. What use would anyone but the most desperate of brigands have to actually stay at Craster's once you kill the old bastard and take his stuff? Even though Craster is despised by all parties, and basically defenseless, he is allowed to live unmolested. This needs a good explanation in my opinion

[conon394]

On this issue I'm such a hypocrite, through and through, I'll readily admit.

I get the creeps when I see the older man Little Finger trying to take advantage of poor little helpless Sansa, trying to get his hands beneath her robes. What a detestable, male pig. It's just plain old pedophilia. Gross!

...

I love my double standards.

Its even more creepy because of the vibe Sansa is a stand in for her Mother and

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

He has her also pretend to be his daughter its not just old guy hitting on young girl - but layers perv

[EireEmerald]

By today's standards he is a perv, not by the standards of Medieval Europe.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

So if the Others are living beings in their own right, don't the writers need to accord them some proper way of procreating? Turning humans screams zombie from a mile.

[conon394]

By today's standards he is a perv, not by the standards of Medieval Europe.

I grant that in first just random old guy wanting to screw a girl - fair enough, its the fact she is a stand in for mother and that he shows her around as his daughter that makes him a perv in any time.

[Mangalore]

I grant that in first just random old guy wanting to screw a girl - fair enough, its the fact she is a stand in for mother and that he shows her around as his daughter that makes him a perv in any time.

Incidently he is a perv because he is probably the only one who actually doesn't want to do that. Sansa is his only scheme he does for private sentiments instead of personal gain. Already telling in what he admits to her.