US threatens sanctions on Somalis who block peace plan

[Snoopy]

Al-Shabab didn't come about because of US or UN intervention. It became a real threat after Ethiopia invaded Somalia and messed everything up.

And btw the current international forces i believe involved in Somalia come form the African Union, not UN.

The UN has been supporting the TFG both directly through financial aid/governmental recognition and indirectly through backing up Ethiopia and the African Union. Ethiopia's interventions have been a major cause of problems recently, but they wouldn't have gone ahead without UN support.

[Vanoi]

The UN has been supporting the TFG both directly through financial aid/governmental recognition

Who else are they supposed to support?

Ethiopia's interventions have been a major cause of problems recently, but they wouldn't have gone ahead without UN support.

Still can't blame the UN for everything thats happening. You can't really just believe that if the UN didn't involve itself everything would have just got better?

[Ferrets54]

It's worth noting that groups like Al Shabab, the ICU, etc only really became powerful after the US and UN intervened to strengthen the government (if it can be called that, controlling maybe half of Mogadishu). It's pretty clear that getting involved in the first place creates just as many problems as it solves.

That's nonsense. The UN, AU, Kenya and Ethiopia have taken a situation where the Government was down to its last neighbourhood in the capital and pushed al-Shabab back on every front. The advance is continuing.

[Snoopy]

That's nonsense. The UN, AU, Kenya and Ethiopia have taken a situation where the Government was down to its last neighbourhood in the capital and pushed al-Shabab back on every front. The advance is continuing.

They've taken a situation where the government was down to its last neighbourhood and replaced it with a situation where the government is down to its last handful of neighbourhoods and only controls anything at all because there are African Union troops running parts of the country.

Who else are they supposed to support?

No one. An attempt to impose a government on Somalia like that only motivates those who oppose it to band together against it. They probably would have come to do so in their own time, and with much less violence, were there not intervention trying to speed up the process.

Still can't blame the UN for everything thats happening. You can't really just believe that if the UN didn't involve itself everything would have just got better?

Certainly better than the way things have been since then, though.

[Ferrets54]

They've taken a situation where the government was down to its last neighbourhood and replaced it with a situation where the government is down to its last handful of neighbourhoods and only controls anything at all because there are African Union troops running parts of the country.

Spoiler for Somalia, May 2012: 

As you can see from this map, you're wrong. The Government is under control of the capital and the surrounding area, Puntland and the borders of Ethiopia and Kenya, and is expanding its control.

That the Government has relied on international support to get to this point is neither here nor there.

[Snoopy]

Spoiler for Somalia, May 2012: 

As you can see from this map, you're wrong. The Government is under control of the capital and the surrounding area, Puntland and the borders of Ethiopia and Kenya, and is expanding its control.

That the Government has relied on international support to get to this point is neither here nor there.

You sure you're reading the same map? The TFG controls a pocket of land around Mogadishu and nothing else. International forces, especially the African Union, and mostly autonomous forces (eg. Puntland) control the vast majority of the so-called TFG land.

The "Government" is relying on international support to the point where it's less a "Government" and more a "puppet" or "gang". Wikipedia sez:

Government is the means by which state policy is enforced, as well as the mechanism for determining the policy of the state.

The TFG does not enforce state policy, international forces attempting to prop it up do. It has no authority whatsoever except in what foreigners are willing to enforce on it's behalf. Were it not for UN insistence that it is so, it would be no more a government than the Crips or Christiana.

[Ferrets54]

You sure you're reading the same map? The TFG controls a pocket of land around Mogadishu and nothing else. International forces, especially the African Union, and mostly autonomous forces (eg. Puntland) control the vast majority of the so-called TFG land.

Not "so called". Just is. Dunno why you're in denial about this, really.

[hellheaven1987]

Update: Somali and Somaliland presidents meet in Dubai

The presidents of Somalia and Somaliland have held their first formal talks since Somaliland broke away more than two decades ago.

The meeting, in Dubai, followed talks in Britain where their representatives discussed ways of clarifying their relationship.

The two men, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed and Ahmed Silanyo, said steps have been taken to continue the dialogue.

Mogadishu wants Somaliland to be part of a single Somali state.

But the northern territory, which broke away in 1991, wants to be a separate country and is awaiting international recognition.

Since declaring independence, Somaliland has enjoyed relative peace in contrast to the rest of Somalia, which has been plagued by conflict.

The first formal direct contact in 21 years between the authorities in southern Somalia, formerly governed by Italy, and the Somaliland administration, which used to be a British colony, happened on 21 June near London.

Britain, Norway and the European Union have said they want the two sides to negotiate a settlement.

Somaliland agreed to enter into the talks during a February meeting in London, when 40 global leaders met to tackle piracy, terrorism and political instability in Somalia.

But its administration says its priority is to remain separate from the rest of Somalia - and wants Mogadishu to recognise its independence.

Somaliland unilaterally declared independence after the overthrow of Siad Barre - who led Somalia's last functioning national government.

It is relatively stable and holds regular elections which have seen peaceful transfers of power - unlike the rest of the country, which has been racked by continued conflict ever since.

Source

[Humble Warrior]

What`s the logic of this action? From what I last saw, Somalia is a chaotic, murderous state with pirates kidnapping Westerners! How the hell are sanctions going to help?

Or is it just the action of a country that knows it can`t do anything at all after its last mess-up in Somalia? Truth is the West need stay out since it`s its fault why Somalia is in the mess it`s in.

[Bobz]

Or is it just the action of a country that knows it can`t do anything at all after its last mess-up in Somalia? Truth is the West need stay out since it`s its fault why Somalia is in the mess it`s in.

It's the West's fault? Last time I checked Somalia started the fighting by itself, and various factions have continued resisting against any attempt to reform a proper government.

[Humble Warrior]

It's the West's fault? Last time I checked Somalia started the fighting by itself, and various factions have continued resisting against any attempt to reform a proper government.

Go read on Somalia`s history. You`ll find Somalia`s problems mostly came from the West. Nothing of their problems started in isolation, you gotta look at the history. It`s the old story.

[Future Filmmaker]

Whoa, I didn't realize the central government had made that much progress against Shabaab. Shabaab used to be the supreme power in the peninsula and its neck and neck now in terms of territory.