Chinese Communist Party - biggest disgrace in Chinese history?

[bushbush]

by gaming the system you mean illegally producing copies of foreign goods which the Chinese judicial system then finds are in no way similar?#

Unfortunately China will remain a third world country until its terrible leadership is swapped for something better.

Come on, that's a rather uninformed post. Are you saying the 6 trillion USD economy is basically a massive counterfeit operation? Let's look at the facts. China's largest export markets are EU, US and Japan. These are all regions/countries with strict laws. If what you are saying is true, why are trillion dollar worth of export not all seized? It is true that China has massive piracy issues but it is wrong to dismiss Chinese economic growth as merely illegal copying.

Using your logic, I can say Ireland is just a land of real estate bubble and Irish people are all fraudsters that cheat bailouts out of other good Europeans. Is that fair?

[bushbush]

http://www.forbes.com/2011/09/14/china-rich-lists-opinions-contributors-john-lee.html

90%+ of them are party member. Don't forgot most Chinese government official will use their wife, family, children name to hide their rich. That's the most basic way to hide money or get lucrative government contract.

I think you need to differentiate between party members (pretty much most working adults in cities), versus party elites (several thousand, or tens of thousands if you include the military elites).

None of the people in the list are GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS or HIGH-RANKING PARTY MEMBERS. You can make a case that they got their wealth partially through gaming the system and maintaining good relations with government officials. But they are not really party elites.

One thing for sure, high government official or party member in china usually filthy rich.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-03-01/the-chinese-communist-partys-capitalist-elite

oh god this is getting silly.

Membership of Chinese legislature is basically a ticket to a meeting once a year with 3000 other people…These people are not government officials and they are not remotely comparable to legislative members in other countries. Yao Ming is a member of legistlature. Is he comparable to John McCain now? It is a rubber stamp massive TV show.

In fact, this article supports what I am saying above. The party is trying to get capitalists in as members and capitalism is now legitimately part of the "communist" party.

[bushbush]

They were up until the premiership of Deng Xiaoping in the 80's when he underwent a massive set of market reforms which privatised small areas of China's industry and services. The reforms also, allowed individuals to set up their own private businesses, created a Chinese stock market and allowed foreign enterprises to invest in the Chinese economy. The CCP called it "socialism with Chinese characteristics". It's worth noting that at this point, China was not completely capitalist. The majority of it's industry and services were still in government hands.

It wasn't until the next decade that the industry would begin a massive privatisation campaign which would bring forth China's massive burst in it's economy. From that point China ceased to be anything remotely communist or socialist and the term "socialism with Chinese characteristics" meant nothing. China became as capitalist as the West.

Good post. People are still rather uninformed about China overall in the West. I don't blame them. It is a big country with a long history. Most people are uninformed about their own countries' history.

But my suggestion is that before people rush to judge and label China based on their perceptions from elsewhere, at least make an effort to understand China's history and political structure. We have people here labelling China "maoist" or comparing China's politics to Angola...it is silly.

A good book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Governing-Chin...ref=pd_sim_b_4

[Ak1980]

I think you need to differentiate between party members (pretty much most working adults in cities), versus party elites (several thousand, or tens of thousands if you include the military elites).

None of the people in the list are GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS or HIGH-RANKING PARTY MEMBERS. You can make a case that they got their wealth partially through gaming the system and maintaining good relations with government officials. But they are not really party elites.

Not all adult, only 80m is party member, still plenty but it's less than 10% of China population, apparently it's one of the requirement to be rich.

oh god this is getting silly.

Membership of Chinese legislature is basically a ticket to a meeting once a year with 3000 other people…These people are not government officials and they are not remotely comparable to legislative members in other countries. Yao Ming is a member of legistlature. Is he comparable to John McCain now? It is a rubber stamp massive TV show.

In fact, this article supports what I am saying above. The party is trying to get capitalists in as members and capitalism is now legitimately part of the "communist" party.

Of course, but it's clearly show that there's close relation ship between the wealthy and the party. Beside i'm only quoting both of that to disprove your statement.

If you think the richest folks in China are party members, you are wrong.

About government official, you will never convince me that their government official is not rich/corrupt. One of my friend married with the son of tax department head in China big city, suffice to say, life is very good for her now.

[bushbush]

Not all adult, only 80m is party member, still plenty but it's less than 10% of China population, apparently it's one of the requirement to be rich.

First I said all adults in the city. Also, 80 million are "party" members. But don't forget the youth league, and other parties "under the leadership of CCP". It used to be a requirement for any decent job before the 90s.

But nowadays, no. It is most important if you want to work in the government. My parents haven't paid party dues in 20 years. They are doing fine.

There is a big difference between party elites and ordinary party members, which if you count party-affliated groups, include just about everybody.

f course, but it's clearly show that there's close relation ship between the wealthy and the party. Beside i'm only quoting both of that to disprove your statement.

It depends. Is buying a badge to sit in a meeting once a year with 3000 random people really "close relations"? It is mostly a publicity stunt for a lot of private businessmen to promote themselves and get their brand names out there. It gives them no real say in terms of policy or anything. They get much more by bribing local officials than sitting in the People's Hall dozing off at Hu Jintao's 8 hour speech.

The relationship between Party and the wealthy is actually not too great. Private entrepreneurs complain mightily about lack of loans from state banks, which favor state-owned enterprises more.

About government official, you will never convince me that their government official is not rich/corrupt. One of my friend married with the son of tax department head in China big city, suffice to say, life is very good for her now.

That's not really "wealthy". By wealthy I am talking about at least 100 million RMB or more. It is very hard for a party official to amass that kind of wealth without getting their heads chopped off. They better be very good at hiding or rise to top positions. China executes hundreds of officials each year.

Private businessmen can get there much easier, if they are good at gaming the system. You are right that government officials are richer than ordinary people and are definitely corrupt. But the party core itself is not a club of super wealthy like people imagine here. In fact, the party has an uneasy relationship with the wealthy, many of whom want greater rule of law to protect their wealth.

[Ak1980]

First I said all adults in the city. Also, 80 million are "party" members. But don't forget the youth league, and other parties "under the leadership of CCP". It used to be a requirement for any decent job before the 90s.

But nowadays, no. It is most important if you want to work in the government. My parents haven't paid party dues in 20 years. They are doing fine.

There is a big difference between party elites and ordinary party members, which if you count party-affliated groups, include just about everybody.



It depends. Is buying a badge to sit in a meeting once a year with 3000 random people really "close relations"? It is mostly a publicity stunt for a lot of private businessmen to promote themselves and get their brand names out there. It gives them no real say in terms of policy or anything. They get much more by bribing local officials than sitting in the People's Hall dozing off at Hu Jintao's 8 hour speech.

The relationship between Party and the wealthy is actually not too great. Private entrepreneurs complain mightily about lack of loans from state banks, which favor state-owned enterprises more.

China adult in city is more than 80m, i believe that number is only for China Communist party member.

I doubt your father already in forbest list yet, so you won't know the effect for sure.

It could be close relation, i doubt 'ordinary' rich can attend even if they want, remember only 3000 people out of 1 billion can come. At least they have chance to start relationship with real official in capital. A picture together or relation with someone powerful can go a long way to create even deeper relationship with local official.

Most economy magazine agree with you bank always favor state-owned enterprises at the expense of ordinary private entrepreneur. But it also help if you have the right name holding share or working at your company.

That's not really "wealthy". By wealthy I am talking about at least 100 million RMB or more. It is very hard for a party official to amass that kind of wealth without getting their heads chopped off. They better be very good at hiding or rise to top positions. China executes hundreds of officials each year.

Private businessmen can get there much easier, if they are good at gaming the system. You are right that government officials are richer than ordinary people and are definitely corrupt. But the party core itself is not a club of super wealthy like people imagine here. In fact, the party has an uneasy relationship with the wealthy, many of whom want greater rule of law to protect their wealth.

Yes, it's hard for ordinary government official to corrupt to much, but princeling maybe is another question. I read somewhere (business week, nyt or economist forgot which one) that Bo XiLai wealth is 'modest' for China princeling standard, they quote Bo Xilai have somewhere around 150m-160m.

Can't find the article again, my free pass read for this week is over

Problem with Chinese family ties, it's hard to differentiate between outright corruption or not. To be fair, it's not only in China, more like Asia way

[Mortality]

This would be implying China, or rather the Chinese Communist Party, is in fact Communist. If anything, it's mostly Capitalism, with a hint of Socialism.

[hellheaven1987]

This would be implying China, or rather the Chinese Communist Party, is in fact Communist. If anything, it's mostly Capitalism, with a hint of Socialism.

I wonder which part of CCP actually relates with Socialism.

[aqd]

I wonder which part of CCP actually relates with Socialism.

They teach psychotics to sing Chinese red song for medical treatment! Is this not socialistic!

[Exarch]

music's actually a proven therapy for some psychological/mental disorders.

@topic,
to quote billionaire investor Jim Rogers: 'some of the best capitalists in the world are in China'

and as i've said before, the only 'ideology' that can properly be applied to modern China today is the Scientific Development Concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti...opment_concept

[Erwin Rommel]

The development concept is a stepping stone to attain the goal of a Harmonious Society run by River Crabs, of course there are dissidents like the Grass Mud Horse, they should be purged and their families subject to sippenhaft or at least reeducation camps.

[aqd]

music's actually a proven therapy for some psychological/mental disorders.

But who is crazier? psychotics or communists?

[Exarch]

But who is crazier? psychotics or communists?

scientologists,

it is known.