CA Modding Summit

[Drtad]

Just to be clear on expectations: this is an opportunity for us to explain to you why things are how they are and get some key modders a glimpse into how we do things, and why we do them the way we do. That information will be useful, no doubt.

I think this is primarily going to be about the campaign map and why it's seemingly impossible to mod now.

[jonny duck]

Or it could be, as this mod summit is due to be held after the suspected announcement of their next game, that this modding summit is a way to create a two way dialogue to help modders to get to grips with the older games and for CA to make the next title easier to mod.

[Rorarii]

I think this is primarily going to be about the campaign map and why it's seemingly impossible to mod now.

Yes probably so but how in the hell did they achieve that!? M2TW strategic map was full of features and easy to mod !


hmmm If CA used the M2TW engine, with improved graphics & animations + naval, for Rome 2, they'd solve alot of issues with one policy. Game engine designed for melee warfare - sieges already working - strategic map that's linked to battle terrain - game system that's fairly easy to mod - etc etc etc ... but SEGA would probably say .. NO!!!! NO!! no!

R

[MathiasOfAthens]

Thats old technology and the engine prob wasnt very well designed for naval warfare.

The graphics in ETW is a VAST VAST improvement over M2 battle graphics. And there are a host of new features? I bet its prob even easier to add new factions and units than in M2.... well for the developers that is because they have tools. Anyway, the warscape engine has unlimited regions and factions. Too bad we just didnt get more regions...


CA just needs to fix their campaign map so its moddable. Or easier to mod.

[Ludicus]

CA just needs to fix their campaign map so its moddable

It will never happen.

Is it a "public relation" summit to explain to modders why they can not mod some parts of the game ?

I may be wrong, but that´s my opinion. C'est pour épater le bourgeois.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Craig basically said the guests will be shown how things are done at CA so while that does sound like a PR event for why we cant mod ETW so well we will at least get some valuable info. And its also a chance to talk to CA about how to design future games. What to make the campaign look like for example. I am 90% confident CA wont make North Africa Borders like in M2 again:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

See how the borders extend into the Sahara. Gay. ETW was better designed in terms of desert borders that dont extend into the desert. Its just bad eye candy. I wanted to rebuild the Roman Empire. Instead I was forced to conquer the deserts.

Unfortunately, they failed in terms of number of regions in ETW and settled on towns that pop up and large administrative centers. While I get the idea they were trying to portray it just didnt fit with the region borders that show on the map. If you capture a town you dont see a border appear around the town representing your control. If CA did this it would of been better.

I kinda suspect they went for the RTR 7 effect with important cities and minor towns that could not recruit units. The important cities had large region borders while the towns were small as they should be.

I didnt see CA repeat their large regions in Shogun II but maybe that was because the game is more regional.

[Drtad]

Yes probably so but how in the hell did they achieve that!? M2TW strategic map was full of features and easy to mod !

With the new engine they combined some complex pathfinding with the map. Don't ask me what that means.

hmmm If CA used the M2TW engine, with improved graphics & animations + naval, for Rome 2, they'd solve alot of issues with one policy. Game engine designed for melee warfare - sieges already working - strategic map that's linked to battle terrain - game system that's fairly easy to mod - etc etc etc ... but SEGA would probably say .. NO!!!! NO!! no!

R

I hate the Med 2 engine.

[Hazbones]

The more I read about this "summit" the less optimistic I am getting.

It appears that CA is wanting to bring some of the fans over to take a look at the operation, try to "explain" things that they might not fully understand and talk about company policies and direction rather than try helping us create anything useful.
With a few people like Darth and such all singing the same song as CA, it will hopefully improve fan relations which appears to be their ultimate goal. So calling this a "modding summit" really is a bad term to use IMO.

Now if they invited over people like TAW, Uanime, and the other unsung heroes who have been working non-stop to crack the maps, build tools, and make the lives of the superstar modders easy then I would be willing to apologize to CA and take back my conspiracy theories. Until then, I will just sit here wearing my tin-foil hat.

[Huberto]

Now if they invited over people like TAW, Uanime, and the other unsung heroes who have been working non-stop to crack the maps, build tools, and make the lives of the superstar modders easy then I would be willing to apologize to CA and take back my conspiracy theories. Until then, I will just sit here wearing my tin-foil hat.

But it's not up to CA to invite them. Hell, everyboy's "invited." It's up to us as a community to put them forward as leaders so that CA will deal with them as such.

[Bethencourt]

I think that coments should respect the work made by any modder in any field. I find this debate of modders of mods and modders of tools very sensless as both activities are needed to make mods. I do not think CA is inviting people to see how they argue which of them is more important.

[Lord Baal]

Everyone able to go should go, we as consumers have nothing to loose! Now having said that, having the right questions for what could be a one in a life time opportunity seems important.

[Muizer]

Everyone able to go should go, we as consumers have nothing to loose! Now having said that, having the right questions for what could be a one in a life time opportunity seems important.

Perhaps CA are already aware of what questions modders have. Yet they feel the need to explain to us how they work. That could mean:

A) The questions are the right ones, but CA are just unwilling to answer them and organise this event to put a nice PR spin on it.

B) CA believe explaining what they did might help to put us on the right track, or at least help to create a realistic perpective of what's possible and what isn't.

I've been making maps for years (for RTW in this case), and the most basic requirement to do the work is to be able to convert data in and out of a programme able to handle spatial data. Current research on the Warscape map is happening at database level. This may enable us to make piecemeal adjustments to the existing map. For anything more, we can only hope CA have something to offer. So, optimistically, I'm picking option B.

[Rorarii]

I suppose the question we should ask is - has any other develop firm held a modding pow-wow ? i cannot recall any, other than firms creating game builder tools on request.

R

[AngryTitusPullo]

Modders have always been invited to CA usually before new game is released especially one which uses new engines. If people still remember there was one who was flown from Australia (IIRC) before the release of Med II.

However this new summit seems more bigger event.

[Kwis]

Hi everyone, I am a scrutinous observer of economy and politics, as my conducting own business and political involvement require, and, for hobbistic reasons, of the gaming industry. I am also a veteran Total War player, dating to the release of original Shogun. Here is my insight, as level-headed as I can muster:

First of all, it seems that you have got a little bit carried away on your expectations unfortunately, as a few have also noticed - from what was written by TWcraig it does not seem they are to present You with any sort of an amazing opportunity, BUT, for some reason, they do see a reason in suddenly talking to you NOW about mod development.

And why not before?
And what do mods do in a long run? Well, they allow a long run to happen. Once the devs run out of immediate ideas to profit from the product and it gets old (and they start prepping for a new project), it is on its way to marketing oblivion. It means the interest in a product may be picked up by a competitor or even a different kind of a product altogether. So how to keep a dedicated consumer base by them and not spend a penny in the process and maybe even attract e.g. George RR Martin or J.R.R. Tolkien fans to their titles?

That's what mods and modding community are about in the eyes of the game developer: a fan base nexus that is self-propelling.

And you yourself are speaking of Shogun 2 mods as of some marginal entity? Let's take DarthMod, the single most popular mod and the best example of collaboration between all the community modders. Look at the v3.4 download statistics. It is clear that roughly 200.000 Shogun 2 owners have downloaded only this one mod from listed sources (moddb and twcenter.net). And what were the sales of the game at the end of the fiscal year 2011 (including crazy Steam christmas sale which drawn some give-this-prize-a-go enthusiasts)? 400.000 copies according to this analysis, 600.000 copies according to little more insightful that. And 80k copies sold of FotS (what a decline! But I'm waiting for the discount too ^_^).

It seems like the wole 1/3 (one third!) of S2:TW purchasers have installed DarthMod v3.4 for their SP and I believe many of them actually share this insight: Gosh, it is a shame and a disgrace that while playing my modded campaign, I am not able to receive any drop-in battles or conduct a multiplayer match easily! And I'm missing out on the Avatar conquest, but I cannot take vanilla anymore! You know what's more? I WOULDN'T even HAVE BOUGHT this game without ensuring first that there is DarthMod for this game as well, because i have not trusted CA's sweet promises "it's going to be fully awesome vanilla style" at all! If not for all you guys here, whose work is more important than any patches we receive during a year of "support", I would still be waiting for this game to be playable. Thank you project coordinators, thank you gfx and sfx artists, thank you programmers, thank you tweakers, thank you suggesters.

Following, where's the plain and proper mod support for a whole year since release? I have been keeping quiet because I believed that if there was something to do about it, you would have already done that, years in the service and all. And I have anticipated the time would come, with mods being widely encouraged by Valve, Bethesda, Paradox, and even sold over Desura now!

You have suggested that they may wish to apologise and make it all go better from now on. Why? Did they stop being overprotective about their marketing success all of a sudden? Didn't they promise that before? How much are they actually promising now? I rather suppose they are wishing to make a new TW engine for their next product, and, once not afraid of Shogun 2 sales, they are ready to give in some of the secrets in exchange for the product longevity. That's right, not much in the means of a new engine, just possibly some information about the old one. And this is your current greatest hope? I must say, I respect You too much to watch this.

Meanwhile they may generously recognise how much dedicated you are and grant You with sweet explanations of their righteous obfuscation, maybe putting it all down on Sega, as in: we Tsar are good, those were just our evil Sega henchmen?

Are they gonna share their work now or even take you on a payroll? Think again, were they to present a deal, wouldn't they have specific persons in mind they wish to collaborate with? They would see the code crackers and content makers as seperate entities and make more detailed invitation to either groups. They denied DarthVader a position in the company a few years before, ask him for his impression of their expectations for a cooperation.

There may very well be that, they wish You to continue your evening job of providing tons of exciting goodness to the players, while keeping the interest of fans and The Creative Assembly's future secured, while you are still not getting any for it and they are getting it all.

This "invitation" sounds very much casual, however, in the light of what was said, it may still be a very devious agenda they have come up within the sales/marketing dept. Read their communicate again, they are so unclear in their conduct, suggesting but not promising, offering but not granting! They simultanously wish: to not raise too much expectations, to pretend they do not perceive modding as something that significant, but to also to be the ones that give out the present; oh so glittering in the eyes of ones so dexterous as You modders, now finally enabling (?) to forge your dreams into slightly softer matter of the code. To me, they seem to be jealous of your accomplishments and greedy of its spoils at the same time.

Be wary then: they need you more than you need them. We need You more than we have ever needed them and will be needing You ever more. I am still looking forward to great updates of your work. I wish You were getting a fair fraction of the money I have paid for their titles, as I have spent tenfold the time with your creations than with the basic products and I am happy with 95% of Your decisions.
However, as successful and proud as you are with Your creations, you're also keen and hopeful to participate in the meeting. Which is something CA are very much aware of, something they were hoping for. They know very well that in your enthusiasm, you could be more pliant to their wishes than reason would allow.

Let me advise you this: contact Desura - the people quite experienced in conductiong such deals I believe, and ask how You can bite on some of the deals suggested: getting the information You want, getting the collaboration You want, and getting the changes We want.

[Captain Grimes]

Hope the Darthmod team can go

[The Hedge Knight]

And you yourself are speaking of Shogun 2 mods as of some marginal entity? Let's take DarthMod, the single most popular mod and the best example of collaboration between all the community modders. Look at the v3.4 download statistics. It is clear that roughly 200.000 Shogun 2 owners have downloaded only this one mod from listed sources (moddb and twcenter.net). And what were the sales of the game at the end of the fiscal year 2011 (including crazy Steam christmas sale which drawn some give-this-prize-a-go enthusiasts)? 400.000 copies according to this analysis, 600.000 copies according to little more insightful that. And 80k copies sold of FotS (what a decline! But I'm waiting for the discount too ^_^).

Incorrect I believe, the download is cumulative across all versions hence the 200000 number should be divided approx by the number of versions. Its probably somewhere around 50000 unique down loaders. Still a lot, but not quite that many.

[Lord Baal]

What you said

[bobbin]

I'm not sure what guys like us who mod the older titles will get out of this but it would be a great opportunity to understand/influence the way CA make their games, plus I only live about a hour away which is handy.

Incorrect I believe, the download is cumulative across all versions hence the 200000 number should be divided approx by the number of versions. Its probably somewhere around 50000 unique down loaders. Still a lot, but not quite that many.

Not to mention that a portion of that will be repeat downloads from people reinstalling the mod for whatever reason.

[alhoon]

Yeah, but even if we take "repeat downloads" as 10K out of the 50K downloaders, we don't include people that got the mod from their friends. I know I've given DMUC to a couple of friends in a USB stick. That's probably true about DMS too.

And even 40K users out of 600K people owning S2TW is a huge number, showing the potentional of modding.