The Sekigahara Campaign II: The Roads to Sekigahara - Open Development Thread

[AngryTitusPullo]

(Just to highjack LestaT's thread, this will be a open development thread for "Roads to Sekigahara", intended to change some of the current details of the original Sekigahara Campaign to draw a focus on the historical battle and surrounding campaign of Sekigahara as well as combat in general.)

Okay. Ignore the thread title. I don't know what else to name it.

Just wondering since I never actually modded myself warscape before how hard it would be if I wanted to do a time limited Sekigahara campaign starting from the death of Toyotomi in 1598 until maybe end date in 1603.

Is it possible to make a weekly campaign (48 turns per year) so for the total combination of roughly 240 turns altogether ?

Can it use FOTS type of RD feature where you can choose either eastern or western side towards the final conflict ?

[Akaie]

Weekly campaign = completely possible. Lots of adaptation needed there, but sure, it's doable . If I were to do this, and I have to say that since I have a bit more motivation for modding now, I'd seriously consider it, it wouldn't get updated as much. I'd make it completely stand-alone from the original Sekigahara Campaign, and perhaps take the time to get rid of some things like units that I don't want to remove from the original. Let the extent of samurai on the battlefield be the general's guard/hatamoto and one samurai guy at the head of each ashigaru unit, as it should be .

If you want, let's start spit-balling. "The Roads to Sekigahara", or something that uses the "The X Campaign" structure. Whatever, that's not entirely important .


FOTS RD can't be ported to another campaign. The only way to make use of it would be to dump as much of Seki into FOTS as legally possible, which is what The Tokaido Campaign aims to do .

[AngryTitusPullo]

Yeah. I thinking of totally abandoning the buildings etc whatsoever because you can't build 5 level of castles in less than 5 years. Replace it with something like forts is possible. This will be campaigns about politics and battles only.

I don't think many building turns need changes also because Japanese buildings from what I understand if something easily destroyed (due to earthquakes etc) but easily rebuild. That's why they have papers for walls.

*I don't know whether it's fun or not but making the forts/castle stay on the same level throughout the campaign (that is if we can make custom TEd map works in campaign). Meaning if a province have a 3rd level castle it will stay that way until the end. We can however 'upgrade' it by giving more auto garrison unit the longer we hold the province.

I really need to go to mod workshop to actually see what can be done and what can't. Life was much easier when modding Rome and Med2.

[Akaie]

Good idea with the buildings. We could have the fortresses stuck at the fifth tier, so we get awesome siege battles with barely any emphasis on the building side of the forts. As for the electable building chains, what ones do you think should stay? I figure the bow, cav, sword, spear, theater and builders chains can be removed.

We can do what FOTS does, and stop the game from giving an additional recruitment slot for each tier, so if we do stick every province with a fifth-tier fort, we should only have the one slot available. That one slot can be used for agents. Or maybe it's better to just do away with every single electable building chains and stick the agents in with the province specialty buildings (i.e. metsuke to gold mine, ninja & geisha to hideout, dairinin to intellectual center).

As for units, there's so much to cut out:
-Any samurai unit,
-Any wako/bandit unit,
-Any cannon unit except European Cannons,
-Katana & Yumi-Naginata Ashigaru

...and:
-limit great/red/yellow/golden guard to one,
-limit european cannons to one

[AngryTitusPullo]

Yeah. A more battle oriented. It's best if warscape (or any TW games) allowed to use vassals unit but unfortunately can't be done. For me I always preferred limited but strong army rather many multiple stacks all over the place. Would it be possible if unit limit can be tied to province owned. The more province you owned the more units that you can have. This to represent you vassal or former owner of the fief you conquered to provide you with soldiers.

I agree with the samurai unit. Only Daimyos should actually have samurais or maybe some special crack named unit of each clan. The problem is I could not find any special mention about any stand out units on their own. The Japanese and to a wider extend the Asian culture don't really give a damn about rank and files. Always only the leader gets mentioned.

I haven't played ROTS much (just purchased it 2 days ago) but I like requesting allegiance function in ROTS. Gaining a fief without bloodshed is a good way to represent the political manipulation in gathering vassals/alliance before the battle. In this case agents should have greater roles in the campaign itself.

The normal alliance/vassals should stay also. What's greater despicable treachery than having your best ally or vassal change side before RD happened. Much like clans changing sides during the course of the Sekigahara battle itself.

In my personal view the Toyotomi (or Ishida) and Tokugawa clans should not be be playable. In this scenario we choose to start the game from one of the clans supporting either one of them like choosing between Shogunate and Imperial in FOTS.

When the RD happened we can be either the vanguard for one of them or just abandon both and fight everyone to be Shogun ourselves (like going republic in FOTS).

This will be heaven !

[Erwin Rommel]

The Seki using FOTS mechanics like weekly turns..

Hmm, I guess the Tokaido Campaign is the best bet for the OP, but not using the Shogun 2 campaign map. But this time like Anton said, dump as many Sengoku Jidai units in it......but what of Naval Battles and the odd occurrence of...............foreign vets and train tracks.

Hmmmm I wonder.........how about using the ROTS map along with its mechanics.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Not sure what's the legal standing in this since one does not have to own Shogun to have some FOTS data itself and vise versa. Even if one don't have ROTS the data itself is already there. Different when using Kingdoms feature into Med2 like retrofit mod since one need to have Med2 to install Kingdoms and the mod is using kingdoms.exe to run it.

If a smart installer that can detect if one person have all 3 installer before allowing the installation process to be completed will it work ?

If it can be done and a message will pop up saying something like "The installer detected that you do not have S2/ROTS/FOTS installed. Click 'Cancel Installation' and Please purchase S2/ROTS/FOTS before installing the mod"

I'm sure CA/SEGA will not object.

[Akaie]

Hmm. I don't know about that last point. I hardly think SEGA would leave it to us to ensure their content is protected, and on top of that I doubt they'd do anything to help us out.

I think two concepts are starting to get blurred together here, so I'll try and separate them. FOTS RD could only be used in FOTS. We can't go porting units like "Yari Ashigaru" since it's a campaign-specific concept made by CA.

For now, we'll use this thread in discussing an alternate design of the original Sekigahara Campaign which will overwrite the original Shogun 2 campaign, just as the original Sekigahara Campaign does.

Use The Tokaido Campaign thread when talking about FOTS-related concepts.

Hmmmm I wonder.........how about using the ROTS map along with its mechanics.

A third pending project? Robin's going to kill me.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Hmm. I don't know about that last point. I hardly think SEGA would leave it to us to ensure their content is protected, and on top of that I doubt they'd do anything to help us out.

This can be left out until the mod actually exist. Anyway to use as precedents during Med2 days I believe I can still dig up threads where CA reps did not object to using Kingdoms stuff into vanilla Med2 provided the mod uses Kingdom.exe

It's easier back then because Med2 and Kingdoms uses different executables. Now with Steam..

I think two concepts are starting to get blurred together here, so I'll try and separate them. For now, we'll use this thread in discussing an alternate design to the original Sekigahara Campaign which will overwrite the original Shogun 2 campaign, just as the original Sekigahara Campaign does. This would cover matters like Yari Ashigaru, which couldn't possibly be ported into FOTS since it's a campaign-specific concept.

In this case maybe knowing which stuff that can be borrowed through scripting for example might help. Stuff like requesting allegiance should be okay I guess since it's just different wordings on the bribing function on the original Shogun.

Use The Tokaido Campaign thread when talking about FOTS-related concepts. Things like the FOTS RD can only be used in that campaign, so there's no need to mention them here .

A third pending project? Robin's going to kill me.

I'm not actually asking you to do this. I may make it myself, maybe some sort of sub-mod for Sekigahara if you don't object.

The only thing is that after Med2 and beginning Empire I have sworn myself never to learn to mod anymore since I wasted nearly 4 years of my gaming time by modding RTW and then Med2.

Even until now I really can't play those game either modded or vanilla because I will stop the game after few turns and change something somewhere along the line.

It kinda help that warscape is more complicated than simple text base modding that I'm used to. Now I just play and let other people mod.

[Akaie]

This can be left out until the mod actually exist. Anyway to use as precedents during Med2 days I believe I can still dig up threads where CA reps did not object to using Kingdoms stuff into vanilla Med2 provided the mod uses Kingdom.exe

It's easier back then because Med2 and Kingdoms uses different executables. Now with Steam..

In this case maybe knowing which stuff that can be borrowed through scripting for example might help. Stuff like requesting allegiance should be okay I guess since it's just different wordings on the bribing function on the original Shogun.

Yeah. Over time the FOTS-based Tokaido Campaign project will look at clearing up just what can be used under various levels of permission.

I'm not actually asking you to do this. I may make it myself, maybe some sort of sub-mod for Sekigahara if you don't object.

The only thing is that after Med2 and beginning Empire I have sworn myself never to learn to mod anymore since I wasted nearly 4 years of my gaming time by modding RTW and then Med2.

Even until now I really can't play those game either modded or vanilla because I will stop the game after few turns and change something somewhere along the line.

It kinda help that warscape is more complicated than simple text base modding that I'm used to. Now I just play and let other people mod.

I honestly like the idea. Unless you object, I'm quite happy to see this realized. The original Seki is great, but damn, the focus ideas you've proposed are really quite excellent . Not to mention it stands to make things appealing to a larger crowd.

[AngryTitusPullo]

If you want (and have the time) to do it then be my guess. Truth is I have downloaded PFM and all those stuff since ETW days but haven even once open it.

Trying not to get the modding curse again, hopefully.

However I will help in whichever way I can whenever I can. It's just times is much much more limited with work and family especially with 2 small kids to have even have time to actually play games, much less modding these days.

* would it be possible to base on ROTS campaign because I don't think it will be an issue using assets from vanilla to ROTS since ROTS on it's own will not function without vanilla.

[Akaie]

For formalities sake, I'll consider you a team member for this project. As it is with everyone else, you won't have a set of demands and a time period in which to complete them; just contribute what you can whenever you can .

Now we just need a name to formalize it!

[AngryTitusPullo]

For formalities sake, I'll consider you a team member for this project. As it is with everyone else, you won't have a set of demands and a time period in which to complete them; just contribute what you can whenever you can .

Thanks. I consider this an honour and will commit internet seppuku if I fail in this task,

[Akaie]

Alrighty. Just to formalize it, I'll label it "The Sekigahara Campaign II: The Roads to Sekigahara" until we come up with something better .

[AngryTitusPullo]

On the train coming back from work just now I was thinking of naming this Road to Osaka but then it might sound like TROM's Road to Kyoto.

Then I'm thinking, why not Crimson Sky ? To diffrentiate a bit (or further) from the main Sekigahara campaign I'm thinking of a campaign base on James Clavell shogun though purist like Erwin might have a fit.

Instead of Ishida vs Ieyasu why not have Ishido, Master of Osaka castle team vs Toronaga, Lord of Kwanto.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

A third pending project? Robin's going to kill me.

purist like Erwin

There is something you're not realising about him..

[AngryTitusPullo]

Is there hard coded limits of units that can be cloned in game ? I was thinking of having units named after provinces so there's no more generic ashigarus but specific units like Owari Goshi Ashigaru for lowest rank of samurais recruitable from Owari provinces only and so on. If there is no limit at all then possibly added something 1st Regiment ~ Owari Goshi Ashigaru recruitable by clan A only followed by 2nd Regiment ~ Owari Goshi Ashigaru recuitable by clan B and so on, so on.

[Akaie]

Nope. We can have lots of ashigaru depth. That's naturally something we'll want, after all we've just killed many units .

[AngryTitusPullo]

Anyone knows where can I find online reference regarding samurai ranks and status especially pre-sekigahara period ? Is the rules that only samurai class allowed to wear swords enforced during Tokugawa shogunate or already started during Hideyoshi ?

If during Hideyoshi then it means that by Sekigahara then armies are made of samurai class already, right ?

[Akaie]

Have a gander at this. It has Hideyoshi's katana-giri in there. I also have an alternate version in English, though it's in a book.

There's another thing I'd like to cite, though I'll refrain until I actually find where I read it .