Pro-Religion: The Rebirth

[IamthePope]

Its a parody of course, i love it because of the amount of times ive been told im a sinner because im an atheist.

Technically you are. I understand that righteous non-believers go to the first circle of Hell.(see Dante)

Updated members list:
Maron
Mudd
Zenith Darksea
Dzoavits
Evan_Kikla
Jesu_follower
Hub'ite
CrimsonKing0
IamthePope
scottishranger
Keresztes
tnick777
Confederate Soldier
bdh
Valentinian
Zapp
Oldgamer
Rush Limbaugh
Dionysios II The Great

[Lee1026]

So who have more people?

[IamthePope]

So who have more people?

I'm guessing S.I.N., but since they don't publish a members list we can't really know.

[mongoose]

Technically you are. I understand that righteous non-believers go to the first circle of Hell.(see Dante)

But what you don't see is that you're also going to hell for not being a pastafarian. I'll see you in the 1st layer, I think I'm going to the 2nd atleast...

[Hub'ite]

But what you don't see is that you're also going to hell for not being a pastafarian. I'll see you in the 1st layer, I think I'm going to the 2nd atleast...

When we die we'll see who was right.

[RZZZA]

We do actually have a members list, its on the first post of our thread.

Say, you guys are pretty well established now wouldnt you say? Are we allowed to speak freely in this thread now, or not yet?

[Maron]

well guys I have returned...

I would like to first of all thank the archbishop of the list, IamthePope, for keeping track of the members list in my absence.(give him a round of applause)

The list on the first post has been updated and I am truly proud to see such prestigious members have decided to join!!!

in response to the SIN members request that we start debating in here, I say okay. I believe that we now have enough members and if anyone wants to post the opening argument, THE FLOOR IS YOURS!!!!!!!

thnx
-Maron

[Lee1026]

Debate over WHAT?

[Lord Rahl]

Meh, count me in. I'm on God's side. I actually have an action figure of Jesus duct taped to the dashboard of my car. He is awesome. There is no Lord but the Lord God Almighty!

[Artemas Ward the XXIII, Esquire]

So, what IS Jesus exactly? Some sort of demi-god? Or a seperate god altogether? The "avatar" of God? Some sort of Idol to be worshipped in the place of God? What?

[Confederate Soldier]

Great to have ya aboard Lord Rahl. Truly you shall help us here at FAITH bring in a new age of light for all TWCers to witness and embrace. Ok well they must likely wont embrace it but hey its worth a try.

So, what IS Jesus exactly? Some sort of demi-god? Or a seperate god altogether? The "avatar" of God? Some sort of Idol to be worshipped in the place of God? What?

He is the son of the living God, who gave himself up to death for us all, to wash away our sins. So that we may have ever lasting life, and may someday should we chose too join him in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[RZZZA]

So, does Faith stand behind religious actions like these? :

"July 4, 2002 -- MEERWALA, Pakistan - For two nervous hours, the teenage girl worried for her 11-year-old brother as their father pleaded before a Pakistani tribal council that the boy had done no wrong in walking unchaperoned with a girl from a different tribe.

The council was unconvinced and ordered a brutal punishment: The boy's sister would be gang-raped to shame her whole family.

Shortly afterward, four members of the council took turns raping the 18-year-old sister in a mud hut as hundreds of people stood outside, laughing and cheering.

"I touched their feet. I wept. I cried," the young woman told The Associated Press yesterday. "I said I taught the holy Koran to children in the village, therefore don't punish me for a crime which was not committed by me. But they tore my clothes and raped me one by one."

Asef Hayyat, Punjab's deputy inspector general of police, said the top officer at the local police station had been suspended, and several close relatives of the suspects were detained to pressure the perpetrators into surrendering.

"We will soon arrest the real culprits," Hayyat told reporters.

Pakistan has a tradition of tribal justice in which crimes or affronts to dignity are punished outside the framework of Pakistani law. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has demanded an end to punishments by tribal councils.

Among the men on the tribal council was Mohammed Ramzan, the Mastoi girl's uncle."

Truly, a pious people.

edit:Maybe I'll pick on christianity too...

"Catholic order's founder sanctioned


A conservative and sometimes controversial Roman Catholic order with a growing presence in Westchester County will now have to contend with the disciplining of its beloved founder by the Vatican because of sex-abuse allegations.

The Vatican announced yesterday that the Rev. Marcial Maciel, 86, the founder of the Legionaries of Christ, would stop celebrating public Masses as a result of a Vatican investigation into allegations that he molested seminarians decades ago.
Maciel, a favorite of the late Pope John Paul II, may be the most influential Catholic figure to be sanctioned over sex abuse claims."



Moooolester

[Maron]

So, does Faith stand behind religious actions like these? :

"July 4, 2002 -- MEERWALA, Pakistan - For two nervous hours, the teenage girl worried for her 11-year-old brother as their father pleaded before a Pakistani tribal council that the boy had done no wrong in walking unchaperoned with a girl from a different tribe.

The council was unconvinced and ordered a brutal punishment: The boy's sister would be gang-raped to shame her whole family.

Shortly afterward, four members of the council took turns raping the 18-year-old sister in a mud hut as hundreds of people stood outside, laughing and cheering.

"I touched their feet. I wept. I cried," the young woman told The Associated Press yesterday. "I said I taught the holy Koran to children in the village, therefore don't punish me for a crime which was not committed by me. But they tore my clothes and raped me one by one."

Asef Hayyat, Punjab's deputy inspector general of police, said the top officer at the local police station had been suspended, and several close relatives of the suspects were detained to pressure the perpetrators into surrendering.

"We will soon arrest the real culprits," Hayyat told reporters.

Pakistan has a tradition of tribal justice in which crimes or affronts to dignity are punished outside the framework of Pakistani law. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has demanded an end to punishments by tribal councils.

Among the men on the tribal council was Mohammed Ramzan, the Mastoi girl's uncle."

Truly, a pious people.

The only "religious action" that occured in your post was that the girl taught the Koran to young children. I personally do not follow the religion of Islam but I certainly support any "non-fanatic" that does.

edit:Maybe I'll pick on christianity too...

"Catholic order's founder sanctioned


A conservative and sometimes controversial Roman Catholic order with a growing presence in Westchester County will now have to contend with the disciplining of its beloved founder by the Vatican because of sex-abuse allegations.

The Vatican announced yesterday that the Rev. Marcial Maciel, 86, the founder of the Legionaries of Christ, would stop celebrating public Masses as a result of a Vatican investigation into allegations that he molested seminarians decades ago.
Maciel, a favorite of the late Pope John Paul II, may be the most influential Catholic figure to be sanctioned over sex abuse claims."



Moooolester

how can you consider molesting a child a "religious act"...that is just ridiculous. All kinds of people molest children. It was most unfortunate that this happened and I feel sorry for the victims, but to think that this is a religious act or that all religious people molest children is ludacris

[RZZZA]

Let us take a closer look at the Koran, page one.

The Cow
In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful

"This is the book! There is no doubt therein; a guide to the pious, 2 who believe in the unseen, and are steadfast in prayer, and of what we have given them expend in alms; 3 who believe in what is revealed to thee, and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. 4 These are in guidance from their Lord, and these are the prosperous. 5 Verily, those who misbelieve, it is the same to them if ye warn them or if ye warn them not, they will not believe. 6 God has set a seal upon their hearts and on their hearing; and on their eyes is dimness, and for them is grievous woe. 7 And there are those among men who say, ‘We believe in God and in the last day;’ but they do not believe. 8 They would deceive God and those who do believe; but they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. 9 In their hearts is a sickness, and God has made them still more sick, and for them is grievous woe because they lied. 10 And when it is said to them, ‘Do not evil in the earth,’ they say, ‘We do but what is right.’ 11 Are not they the evildoers? And yet they do not perceive. 12 And when it is said to them, ‘Believe as other men believe,’ they say, ‘Shall we believe as fools believe?’ Are not they themselves the fools? And yet they do not know.... "

So already, beginning of the book we have an aggresive, holier than thou attitude set by the koran. Believe what we believe, or youll be punished. Nice message, I feel bad for all the kids who read this and think this is truly God's word.

edit: I'm reminded of the last stars wars movie when Obi Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"...."This is the book! There is no doubt therein..."

[RZZZA]

"how can you consider molesting a child a "religious act"...that is just ridiculous."

Consider the mans position, for one. This is not a cab driver or a vagabond. Molesting a child is not a good religious act, you are right, and that is exactly the problem. When even your leaders are corrupt, imperfect beings how can you have faith? and have faith in what? Men are corrupt, people are scum, why represent organizations that have come to decay and ruin?

[Maron]

Let us take a closer look at the Koran, page one.

The Cow
In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful

"This is the book! There is no doubt therein; a guide to the pious, 2 who believe in the unseen, and are steadfast in prayer, and of what we have given them expend in alms; 3 who believe in what is revealed to thee, and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. 4 These are in guidance from their Lord, and these are the prosperous. 5 Verily, those who misbelieve, it is the same to them if ye warn them or if ye warn them not, they will not believe. 6 God has set a seal upon their hearts and on their hearing; and on their eyes is dimness, and for them is grievous woe. 7 And there are those among men who say, ‘We believe in God and in the last day;’ but they do not believe. 8 They would deceive God and those who do believe; but they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. 9 In their hearts is a sickness, and God has made them still more sick, and for them is grievous woe because they lied. 10 And when it is said to them, ‘Do not evil in the earth,’ they say, ‘We do but what is right.’ 11 Are not they the evildoers? And yet they do not perceive. 12 And when it is said to them, ‘Believe as other men believe,’ they say, ‘Shall we believe as fools believe?’ Are not they themselves the fools? And yet they do not know.... "

So already, beginning of the book we have an aggresive, holier than thou attitude set by the koran. Believe what we believe, or youll be punished. Nice message, I feel bad for all the kids who read this and think this is truly God's word.

this doesnt help your previous argument at all....what was being practiced in the first story was a primitive form of "tribal law" which is independent of pakistani national law. I do not agree with this however nothing is mentioned about it being religiously motivated. If you can show me in the koran where it says to "rape a girl because her brother walks with someone" then I would be happy to submit that point to you...until then, this aint cuttin it.

but lemme ask you something...

does S.I.N. support anti-religious actions such as these which are labeled as such

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/civilrights/a121102.htm

[RZZZA]

Touche. My point was that I wanted you guys to make it clear, what you support and what you dont support, because as it stands now it seems the group is targeted to people who practice a religion, and thats all, no other criteria for joining seems to have been laid out. Theres all kinds of religious people out there, all kinds of religious groups, what kind are you? Where do you stand, on religious issues, like gay marriage for instance?

this doesnt help your previous argument at all....what was being practiced in the first story was a primitive form of "tribal law" which is independent of pakistani national law. I do not agree with this however nothing is mentioned about it being religiously motivated. If you can show me in the koran where it says to "rape a girl because her brother walks with someone" then I would be happy to submit that point to you...until then, this aint cuttin it.

I'm only about 1/4th of the way through an english version of the koran, but rest assured once I finish it I will have a lot more ammo. In response, since you seem to think islam has nothing to do with those peoples overreaction, heres some quotes.

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

I havent yet encountered anything mentioning rape, but I'll let you know when I do. Is this the type of thing FAITH stands for?

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Maron]

Touche. My point was that I wanted you guys to make it clear, what you support and what you dont support, because as it stands now it seems the group is targeted to people who practice a religion, and thats all, no other criteria for joining seems to have been laid out. Theres all kinds of religious people out there, all kinds of religious groups, what kind are you? Where do you stand, on religious issues, like gay marriage for instance?

i cannot speak for the whole group due to the fact that our "official position" has not yet been discussed. I can tell you what I stand for and believe in. I believe in the right of ANYONE to choose to believe in a higher power, and to be able to openly discuss their beliefs and express their viewpoint without fear of ridicule or persecution from the politically protected minority that choose not to believe and demand that the world change for and cater to them. Im sure that most members "probably" feel about the same.

apart from that I also support the right of someone to not believe, however I do not believe that they should be allowed to impose on anyone's religious beliefs.(especially by means of the court system) I am a firm believer in majority rule and guess what...the majority of the country (or the world for that matter) wants their religion.

I'm only about 1/4th of the way through an english version of the koran, but rest assured once I finish it I will have a lot more ammo. In response, since you seem to think islam has nothing to do with those peoples overreaction, heres some quotes.

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

I havent yet encountered anything mentioning rape, but I'll let you know when I do. Is this the type of thing FAITH stands for?

once again I only speak for myself.

I do not have a problem with someone believing these scriptures. I would have a problem if someone decided to act upon them in a violent way, however I dont think any of the good, decent, mainstream muslims would ever act upon this violently.

[RZZZA]

i cannot speak for the whole group due to the fact that our "official position" has not yet been discussed. I can tell you what I stand for and believe in. I believe in the right of ANYONE to choose to believe in a higher power, and to be able to openly discuss their beliefs and express their viewpoint without fear of ridicule or persecution from the politically protected minority that choose not to believe and demand that the world change for and cater to them. Im sure that most members "probably" feel about the same.

apart from that I also support the right of someone to not believe, however I do not believe that they should be allowed to impose on anyone's religious beliefs.(especially by means of the court system) I am a firm believer in majority rule and guess what...the majority of the country (or the world for that matter) wants their religion.

But ridicule is exactly the thing that stops bad ideas from growing to be even worse ideas. Nobody is proposing persecution, but ridicule is healthy and needed to weed out the bad ideas, the dead end conclusions, to help men become greater than they were yesterday. Your belief that someones personal preference not be imposed via government is a belief we share,one of S.I.N.s core principles is the idea that religiously inspired government decisions are usually bad ones. I take it you must agree then? It surely must work both ways, if the courts cannot impose on someones beliefs than so too should courts not impose their beliefs on others. What else can prohibiting gay marriage be, then, but courts imposing the beliefs of what is most likely the minority, onto the rest of us?

once again I only speak for myself.

I do not have a problem with someone believing these scriptures. I would have a problem if someone decided to act upon them in a violent way, however I dont think any of the good, decent, mainstream muslims would ever act upon this violently.

Then you concede that religious text is fallible, it is not 100% morally acceptable in modern day society and since God is said to be omnipotent and omniscient, and cannot be wrong, so then religious texts cannot be the word of God. You admit that most christians, jews and muslims do not abide by 100% of what their religious texts say, they tend to pick and choose what to believe and follow and what to ignore. If you do agree that picking and choosing is the way to go, then how can you support the adoption of certain BAD IDEAS found in the various sacred texts? This is why its important to point out exactly what parts FAITH believes, and supports, and what parts you guys reject and will not support.