The Battle For Middle Earth - Hotseat Campaign [TATW 3.2]

**The Norseman** · March 17, 2013, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nice

Cheap trick or common knowledge? There was never ever a complain or a rule against it and as Dux wrote me in AoM it's something normal that he uses himself. I assume that I and Dux are not the only 2 guys that know about pulling an army out of an ambush.
Btw there is an easy trick against getting your army pulled: Don't put them in a place were they try to ambush if a dangerous enemy army is near.
Why implement a rule for something that can be avoided without rule?

If it was just planning then redoing want take to long. You can just look what you did or you may even still know it. There was no battle against me in the Dale, Dwarves or SE turn so nobody loses any good battle outcomes.

I don't completly understand what you ment but it seems like you say that I moved a defeated army one turn ago. If you show me that I did this I won't claim that you redo your turn. You played your turn before the "no moving of defeated army" was brought up? The discussion was like 3 weeks ago and it seems like everyone agreed with those rules back then.
Also it seems like I am not the only one who thought this rule is active.

What about Mordor then? Who once his army was defeated at Dol Goldur, and bear in mind, that was ALL of his best generals with 10 command stars, with Witch-King and Nazguls, moved his army after it was defeated? We could have taken all his generals out and then I could be safe and secure on my way to Isengard without having to change my tactics outside Mordor which I had to and which now led to a huge loss in numbers for me because now I had to fight him with a full stack instead of just a couple of units. Will there be no compensation for me and the dwarves losing a thousand men because he removed his defeated army?

And when he in Osgiliath moved his men back to Minas Morgul making it way harder for to enter with spies as well as later being led to its destruction because Mordor had just enough troops to take Rhuns army out. Without all those troops he retreated and retrained it is unlikely he would be able to win against Rhun or hold it back. Basically Mordor would be dead, yes dead if not the units had retreated because then Rhun could have just sieged Minas Morgul, taken it, then camped there and retrained his units and fighting off any army.

Or in the far east where when his stack was defeated once more it retreated again back to Mordor, that was about half a stack right there which could have been defeated. Shall he not be punished for all those moves who would for sure lead to his destruction and would be way more critical than moving my Dale army back? If he had not been able to move his men back Mordor would be as good as dead now and all stacks headed towards you. So, what now? All of this happened within two weeks, and the rules were discussed 3 weeks ago as you say.

Give me back my legions would not be a fitting quote, but give me and the dwarves back our soldiers in Mordor and I wont move Dale`s general army back.

**Dwarven Berserker** · March 17, 2013, 06:41 AM

Wait, what o.0 You managed to take out the witch king? How on earth did you do that? He should have been way out of range of any army. Did you seriously have another hidden stack or something?

**The Norseman** · March 17, 2013, 06:42 AM

Nah, +movement points for the dwarven general. That is one thing I dont understand, if the leading general has +movement points should not the army also have it? It seems only the general has +movement points and not the army...

**knicolas2** · March 17, 2013, 07:04 AM

ok:
It is first of all a GAME which engine is not perfect. But what do i say nothing in life is perfect.
Some of nice movements and what he did was really cheating i agree on that.. other things like pulling the dale army out of an ambush are quite and realistic movement which is also used in reality. This is no cheap trick this is tactic.

The problem now in my opinion is that you do not want to lose this hotseat. Yes i can understand it but as i said it is a game. Try again until you found a way to beat nice. But please not because this discussions are totally annoying by implenting one rule after another. If you think he uses cheap tricks then goddammed ban him from this hotseat, or ban yourself because looking back i guess this discussion about what movements he did ... will never never end.

**Dwarven Berserker** · March 17, 2013, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Nah, +movement points for the dwarven general. That is one thing I dont understand, if the leading general has +movement points should not the army also have it? It seems only the general has +movement points and not the army...

Unless he had like double movement for himself + the army that... should have been impossible. My army was hidden in the forest to intercept rhun's army, far away form the dwarven army

EDIT: ...I just looked at my save files, and let's say... I may or may not have kinda uploaded the wrong save...

Ah well, I was probably going to die anyways, but I was actually hoping for something more glorious than this...

**Emperor of Hell** · March 17, 2013, 08:20 AM

No your army was on the middle of Dagorlad.

**The Norseman** · March 17, 2013, 08:21 AM

you just have to move the general with the most movementpoints and attack your army, then send in the rest of the men to combine forces with the general.

+ your army was in the middle of Dagorlad?

**Dwarven Berserker** · March 17, 2013, 08:24 AM

*Ahem* yeah, turns out I may have sort of screwed up

(See edit of my post above)

**Gallus** · March 17, 2013, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dwarven Berserker

Unless he had like double movement for himself + the army that... should have been impossible. My army was hidden in the forest to intercept rhun's army, far away form the dwarven army

EDIT: ...I just looked at my save files, and let's say... I may or may not have kinda uploaded the wrong save...

Ah well, I was probably going to die anyways, but I was actually hoping for something more glorious than this...

That is just too funny, the exact same thing happened to me when you massacred my forces Nurn.

**Dwarven Berserker** · March 17, 2013, 08:26 AM

@Gallus: Oh yeah, I rember that

I guess karma's a female dog

**Nice** · March 17, 2013, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

What about Mordor then? Who once his army was defeated at Dol Goldur, and bear in mind, that was ALL of his best generals with 10 command stars, with Witch-King and Nazguls, moved his army after it was defeated? We could have taken all his generals out and then I could be safe and secure on my way to Isengard without having to change my tactics outside Mordor which I had to and which now led to a huge loss in numbers for me because now I had to fight him with a full stack instead of just a couple of units. Will there be no compensation for me and the dwarves losing a thousand men because he removed his defeated army?

By bringing this up you are annoying me even more.
If we mean the same battle than it was the battle were the bad sub destroyed all ambitions of Mordor in the Silvan regions.
Back then it was also allowed to move armies after they were defeated and more importantly I wouldn't have lost this army.
Mordor just had to wait for his 2 spys to open the gates of Dol Guldur, take it and kill the dale army afterwards(which I also told the sub).

Originally Posted by Aldor

If Mordor would have continued to aid you, he would have slowly died off while securing your victory. Don't think the Mordor player is that stupid. Agreements have been made against you which lead to me being able to sends stacks in your direction.

Mordor wasn't in such a bad position when I looked at the saves back then. I don't think Mordor would have lost that many regions or one of the armies if I subbed him. Also now he has absolutly no chances on victory as none of his surrounding players will allow him to grow again.
Back then he was the second strongest nation and I also started to help him as Eriador was defeated.

I use a mercenary ship to sink a single Corsair ship -> forbidden to use Mercenary ships (BTW Aldor The rule you wrote would have allowed me to do this)

No it doesn't. It says you can't attack with transport ships.

Originally Posted by Aldor

- mercenary transport ships: cannot attack, only lone ships not guarded by other ships (so a ‘one-ship’ fleet)

It was one mercenary ship against a lone corsair ship.

Originally Posted by Aldor

Apart from the OotMM fullstack... Which was very important strategically.

I defeated the OotMM fullstack with just 10 units(I won that battle everytime I reloaded and Witchking also had a look at it)
I assume he would still have continued to attack me because I also didn't imagine to win that battle against a fullstack.
I probably would have defeated that army in the next turn.

Forgot one thing: I think Norseman wrote that it would also be forbidden to move an army that was defeated in your own turn(you fail an attack) in the next turn. I think this isn't needed as anyone can move their army in the next turn if they were defeated in their own turn.

The warg unit that drew Norsemans army out of ambush could have reached the army easily this turn but i think that my army could also reach it without the warg. If you redo I promise I won't move that warg.

**Gallus** · March 17, 2013, 11:12 AM

OMG get a room you two. Defeated armies cannot move, I thought that was clear? I suggested that rule so we implemented it in February. If it was violated before, that should have been brought up when it happened. Look at me and DB, we both uploaded wrong saves and lost an entire stack because of it and we moved on. We are not going to win this HS, so what? HS are played for fun, not for winning. And it sure is hard to have fun if turns are delayed for WEEKS because some players can't even agree on what the rules are.

**The Norseman** · March 17, 2013, 11:14 AM

By bringing this up you are annoying me even more.
If we mean the same battle than it was the battle were the bad sub destroyed all ambitions of Mordor in the Silvan regions.
Back then it was also allowed to move armies after they were defeated and more importantly I wouldn't have lost this army.
Mordor just had to wait for his 2 spys to open the gates of Dol Guldur, take it and kill the dale army afterwards(which I also told the sub).

That changes nothing? Still "broke" the rule. Back then? If it was implemented in febuary then I should now get my troops back at BG and I will not move my army to safety. That is the only fair decision. You are taking this game way too seriously. I lost a stack because you drawed my army out with 1 unit and you lost nothing, only the chance to maybe defeat my Dale army. I on the other hand lost the chance to destroy Mordor a long time ago.

2 sec reading what he edited just now.

The warg unit that drew Norsemans army out of ambush could have reached the army easily this turn but i think that my army could also reach it without the warg. If you redo I promise I won't move that warg.

Ugh you know what, I am sick and tired of this. Fine, I will redo my turn even though it is absolute ******** because the rule was implemented after my turn was played. I will just be the bigger man and let you have your will, even though it means losing all of my 7 generals and my 10-command king for something that he should not die for. For the sake of the hotseat. And just now, I have changed the tide of war, now that you have the advantage by removing all of my best generals, well I hope my 2 - star general can work wonders.

**knicolas2** · March 17, 2013, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gallus

OMG get a room you two. Defeated armies cannot move, I thought that was clear? I suggested that rule so we implemented it in February. If it was violated before, that should have been brought up when it happened. Look at me and DB, we both uploaded wrong saves and lost an entire stack because of it and we moved on. We are not going to win this HS, so what? HS are played for fun, not for winning. And it sure is hard to have fun if turns are delayed for WEEKS because some players can't even agree on what the rules are.

I totally agree with Gallus. Please bring this insane discussion to an end now. If needed kick one of the players but please bring it to an end.
When my fullstack was defeated i didn´t started a discussiion lasting for weeks. I only asked if it is allowed then i asked Nice how he managed it. That is all.

**Emperor of Hell** · March 17, 2013, 11:43 AM

We shall implement this rule next turn. So everybody has played xx amount of turns with the same rules. No need for replaying and I certainly won't.

**Aldor** · March 17, 2013, 12:44 PM

It was one mercenary ship against a lone corsair ship.

~~- mercenary transport ships: cannot attack, only lone ships not guarded by other ships (so a ‘one-ship’ fleet)~~

Here is a more clarifying explanation. This rule is better phrased, so scratch the former.

- mercenary transport ships can never be used to attack other ships. In addition they can only be used as lone ships (one ship fleet), not accompanied with other ships/fleets.

**Gallus** · March 17, 2013, 02:08 PM

Is Dux playing any faction in this HS? He's a great admin, maybe he could take over from WitchKing?

**Nice** · March 17, 2013, 03:27 PM

The turn doesn't have to be redone if you just send the army out of your settlement into the range of my army in the next turn.
If you move the rest of your army slightly into my attackzone then I can just attack your army and you can still decide if you want to fortify your settlement with other units or if you leave the remains of your army to die because defence is hopeless.

Like this we would get what would actually have happened even though it will take me one turn more and probably a few more casualities because your 10 generals will have regained most of their loses.
Are you fine with this Norseman?

Originally Posted by Noreseman

If it was implemented in febuary then I should now get my troops back at BG and I will not move my army to safety. That is the only fair decision. You are taking this game way too seriously. I lost a stack because you drawed my army out with 1 unit and you lost nothing, only the chance to maybe defeat my Dale army. I on the other hand lost the chance to destroy Mordor a long time ago.

I looked it up. The subbing of Mordor was in January. The rule was brought up by Gallus on 20th February when the subbing was already over.

**The Norseman** · March 17, 2013, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Nice

The turn doesn't have to be redone if you just send the army out of your settlement into the range of my army in the next turn.
If you move the rest of your army slightly into my attackzone then I can just attack your army and you can still decide if you want to fortify your settlement with other units or if you leave the remains of your army to die because defence is hopeless.

Like this we would get what would actually have happened even though it will take me one turn more and probably a few more casualities because your 10 generals will have regained most of their loses.
Are you fine with this Norseman?

I looked it up. The subbing of Mordor was in January. The rule was brought up by Gallus on 20th February when the subbing was already over.

Sure, still the same thing, all of my best generals will die nonetheless, because then you get to attack them outside the city, have them retreat into my city, then siege it and kill off all my generals. And the war in Isengard is lost now. I am not fine with anything, only not bothering to argue anymore. I will move them in your reach next turn.

And cant find anything by Gallus talking of this on the 20th of Febuary...

But I did not know Isengard troops had +movement points? Look in the pic below, for some reason, even though your general has no +movementpoints he can travel way longer than my general. Do the units have +movement points or something? Or has it something to do with roads? Your army can move to only 1 tile away from my army, but my army can only move to 4 tiles away from your army.

Ive also told the admin to check if the victory could happen within the first 5 reloads. King Bard should have been able to keep your men off with 10 star command and 7 of the best units Dale has to offer...

DONT YOU SHOW EM YOUR SITUATION!!!! SILLY NORSEMAN

**Nice** · March 17, 2013, 06:29 PM

Harad up

Ofc you can let it get checked.
I was able to win this battle without doing anything else then changing the unit order. Didn't have to do any fancy stuff like spying or saving.
If you find a new admin I can send him the unit order and he should get the same result.