RS 2.6

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Thing about the game is, you can't really train up your legions up in battle because they can be trained up to two silver chevrons right off the bat. It is, indeed an interesting argument and I'd agree with m'Lord Tedric. Shame that the game mechanics limit us in this regard.

Two bronze ones, surely?

Curiously I don't think the important point is getting across. The Marian Reforms are a representation of what happened. Like many, I suspect, I quite like mine early - about 40yrs/80turns in. At that point I tend to have a pair of Polybian stacks and a matching pair of Allied (even I decide to do that to simplify the logistics!). They are well trained and experienced - and I continue to use them, often for many years, but they become smaller eventually. These do represent the declining availability of the 'Old & Bold'. The new troops are then recruited and sent forward, gaining experience as they go. However, from recruitment to equipping they are still new troops and, given that they were armed and equipped no better and fought in the same way (tactical & operational unit sizes notwithstanding), they should be no better.

But - there is an upgrade per se that represents the new legions quite well and perhaps is all that's required - the 1st cohort availability which enhances all the units near it. Surely that's enough of a change?

[Agrippa19]

You have just put yourself in the hands of a team who is always trying to make the game more challenging...you actually suggested to lower stats ?? May the wargods have mercy on the roman players. Have you seen what Celtic champions can do to a cohort ?

Okay maybe I didn't explain what I meant very clearly. I simply stated that the Polybian's morale and discipline should not be as high as the later legions who were professionals and spent years of exclusively trainining, campaigning and all the other duties of the army and did not have the seperate responsibility of returning back to maintain farms and households. I'm not suggesting lowering the stats of the polybian cohorts, I'm saying the reforms should grant bonus's to the legions morale and discipline and if be it wouldn't be unrealistilc to increase some stats elsewhere to resemble how these soldiers were always working their skills, instead of being left go home after each campaign.

In reality a newly recrtuited polybian legion would have had the same stats as late republican one. A polybian legion would never have spent enough time together as a late republican one so the latters morale should be increased to represent this. I think in game the only way to represent the professionalsim attained by the later legions would be to grant them higher defence and morale making them less likely to rout. They shouldn't be necessarily superior, just more reliable.

[intel]

But the discipline of the later legions wasn't always high. It did depend on the commander, duty etc. For example, troops in Syria, tasked with garrison duties got married, had second jobs and homes etc. The discipline hit the bottom, until specially assigned commander arrived.

[Agrippa19]

But the discipline of the later legions wasn't always high. It did depend on the commander, duty etc. For example, troops in Syria, tasked with garrison duties got married, had second jobs and homes etc. The discipline hit the bottom, until specially assigned commander arrived.

They are exceptions though that came with complacency,the soldiers of the older legions generally always had second jobs and wives. There are many mutinies also that came from disgruntled legions on the empire's borders but these have all got to do with living conditions and politics that have always been a consequence of permant standing armies throughout history.

[High Fist]

Two bronze ones, surely?

Curiously I don't think the important point is getting across. The Marian Reforms are a representation of what happened. Like many, I suspect, I quite like mine early - about 40yrs/80turns in. At that point I tend to have a pair of Polybian stacks and a matching pair of Allied (even I decide to do that to simplify the logistics!). They are well trained and experienced - and I continue to use them, often for many years, but they become smaller eventually. These do represent the declining availability of the 'Old & Bold'. The new troops are then recruited and sent forward, gaining experience as they go. However, from recruitment to equipping they are still new troops and, given that they were armed and equipped no better and fought in the same way (tactical & operational unit sizes notwithstanding), they should be no better.

But - there is an upgrade per se that represents the new legions quite well and perhaps is all that's required - the 1st cohort availability which enhances all the units near it. Surely that's enough of a change?

2 silver chevrons with a large foundry, plus silver attack/defense. Standard for all of my legions.

How about the generic legions have slightly worse stats than the polybians, and the named legions have better? Seems like a decent compromise. A question: Are the generics more expensive than the polybians?

That's a neat upgrade! Makes the more precious.

[FeralBlueBird]

2 silver chevrons with a large foundry, plus silver attack/defense. Standard for all of my legions.

How do you manage this? I don't get silver chevrons even in my most advanced recruitment centers. I have silver equipment, yes, but not chevrons. The best I get are three bronze.

[Sertorio]

Okay maybe I didn't explain what I meant very clearly. I simply stated that the Polybian's morale and discipline should not be as high as the later legions who were professionals and spent years of exclusively trainining, campaigning and all the other duties of the army and did not have the seperate responsibility of returning back to maintain farms and households. I'm not suggesting lowering the stats of the polybian cohorts, I'm saying the reforms should grant bonus's to the legions morale and discipline and if be it wouldn't be unrealistilc to increase some stats elsewhere to resemble how these soldiers were always working their skills, instead of being left go home after each campaign.

In reality a newly recrtuited polybian legion would have had the same stats as late republican one. A polybian legion would never have spent enough time together as a late republican one so the latters morale should be increased to represent this. I think in game the only way to represent the professionalsim attained by the later legions would be to grant them higher defence and morale making them less likely to rout. They shouldn't be necessarily superior, just more reliable.

You explained yourself clearly, i am the one who was teasing. You are right but defence and morale are already very high gamewise. Routing a player controlled roman unit is no easy task.

[High Fist]

How do you manage this? I don't get silver chevrons even in my most advanced recruitment centers. I have silver equipment, yes, but not chevrons. The best I get are three bronze.

I have no idea. I distinctly remember silver chevrons on my legions... Unless I'm out of my mind...

Perhaps I only remember my experienced legions. I'm thinking of my Rome campaign - I rarely trained, I mostly retrained. I must have got confused because of that.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Okay maybe I didn't explain what I meant very clearly. I simply stated that the Polybian's morale and discipline should not be as high as the later legions who were professionals and spent years of exclusively trainining, campaigning and all the other duties of the army and did not have the seperate responsibility of returning back to maintain farms and households. ...............

No, that's fine - I'm more concerned that I'm not explaining myself clearly.

The Polybian-era troops are already trained and experienced (except, in theory, for their first experiences as velites and young Hastati). Whenever called up the majority already have a good deal of experience and can pass it on; they know how a legion fights. Because the player doesn't (and the Mod couldn't handle well anyway - although this is the one occasion when 0turn could be used semi-realistically) disband his troops at the end of each summer turn (it's not really practicable either), then they will become more experienced as time goes on. Luckily, so things don't become distorted, most people go quickly to the Akragas growth enabled Marian reforms.

Thereafter new legions (the Generic ones in RSII) are raised en masse (so use several recruitment locations)), but they are truly completely inexperienced (the poorer classes never having been expected to fight before) and need to gain that training and experience.

Now, there is no particular evidence (that I am aware of) that legions were of higher morale in any period compared to others - however, the appearance of the 1st Cohort does enable this and that is more than sufficient.

Otherwise it's the gaining of more chevrons - each one giving +1 to Melée and Missile and +1 to Defence - that more than represents the longevity (by experience) of the Late Republic troops. Bear in mind that the Mod does not require the player to disband legions after 30-50 turns! (ie the men are too old) - lots of experience is available. Also note that legions do not lose experience when they don't fight for many years.

All in all the Romans are more than powerful enough - if you're losing to Celtic champions, or Dacian Falxmen, then it's not the troops fault.

[Romo]

I have not finished the game, so I actually dont know if you can get this later lol

Maybe I could go out of history on this but still

I was thinking about the ability of the Roman civilization to absorb and adapt the knowledge of every civilization that they "destroyed" and in the case of the greeks, they in some way stole their religion, maybe every time you get a capital or destroy a faction, you will get a new "roman" unit, not mercs

Like the Chariot, maybe not a general unit but a AoR special one

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Romans probably borrowed chariot racing from the Etruscans, who would themselves have borrowed it either from the Celts or from the Greeks, but the Romans were also influenced directly by the Greeks especially after they conquered mainland Greece in 146 BC. In the Roman Empire, chariots were not used for warfare, but for chariot racing, especially in circuses, or for triumphal processions, when they could be drawn by as many as ten horses or even by dogs, tigers, or ostriches. There were four divisions, or factiones, of charioteers, distinguished by the colour of their costumes: the red, blue, green and white teams. The main centre of chariot racing was the Circus Maximus,[17] situated in the valley between the Palatine and Aventine Hills in Rome. The track could hold 12 chariots, and the two sides of the track were separated by a raised median termed the spina. Chariot races continued to enjoy great popularity in Byzantine times, in the Hippodrome of Constantinople, even after the Olympic Games had been disbanded, until their decline after the Nika riots in the 6th century. The starting gates were known as the Carceres.
An ancient Roman car or chariot drawn by four horses abreast together with the horses drawing it was called a Quadriga, from the Latin quadrijugi (of a team of four). The term sometimes meant instead the four horses without the chariot or the chariot alone. A three-horse chariot, or the three-horse team drawing it, was a triga, from trijugi (of a team of three).

Elephants, even Julius Cesar used one elephant!!! and against elephants legion Alaudea used AXES!! XD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rome brought back many elephants at the end of the Punic Wars, and used them in its campaigns for many years afterwards. The conquest of Greece saw many battles in which the Romans deployed war elephants, including the invasion of Macedonia in 199 BC, the battle of Cynoscelphalae 197 BC,[29] the battle of Thermopylae,[30] and the battle of Magnesia in 190 BC, during which Antiochus III's fifty-four elephants took on the Roman force of sixteen. In later years the Romans deployed twenty-two elephants atPydna in 168 BC.[31] They also featured throughout the Roman campaign against the Celtiberians in Hispania and against the Gauls. Famously, the Romans used a war elephant in the invasion of Britain, one ancient writer recording that 'Caesar had one large elephant, which was equipped with armor and carried archers and slingers in its tower. When this unknown creature entered the river, the Britons and their horses fled and the Roman army crossed over',[32] - although he may have confused this incident with the use of a similar war elephant in Claudius' final conquest of Britain. At least one elephant skeleton with flint weapons that has been found in England was initially misidentified as these elephants, but later dating proved it to be a mammoth skeleton from the stone age.[33]

By the time of Claudius, however, such animals were being used by the Romans in single numbers only - the last significant use of war elephants in the Mediterranean was against the Romans at the battle of Thapsus, 46 BC, where Julius Caesar armed his fifth legion (Alaudae) with axes and commanded his legionaries to strike at the elephant's legs. The legion withstood the charge, and the elephant became its symbol. Thapsus was the last significant use of elephants in the West.[34]

Just an idea =)

[Diocletianus]

Your source mentionned the chariot was not used in warfare, so why make a unit of it ?

Will the multiple rebellions bug will be solved in 2.6 ?

[Romo]

Fun?

[Sertorio]

Will the multiple rebellions bug will be solved in 2.6 ?

Yes.

[CTD_or_Bust]

Will 2.6 ever come out?

[Larkin]

Will 2.6 ever come out?

Yes. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that it's about a month away from release.

[Grimbold]

11 days till a possible release.

[tone]

Actually it turns out DVK is away for the last week of July, so I think the plan is now to release as soon as is possible after his return, which will hopefully be the first week of August.
We've got a fair few testers testing now and giving last bits of feedback. When he gets back we'll have to create the installer from the latest build and then upload. The date won't be slipping the same way that the original release of RS2 did though!

[Darth Bane1]

Yeah! Not that long as I expected. Gives me time to fix my PC problems... *sigh*

[bobbyr]

Actually it turns out DVK is away for the last week of July, so I think the plan is now to release as soon as is possible after his return, which will hopefully be the first week of August.
We've got a fair few testers testing now and giving last bits of feedback. When he gets back we'll have to create the installer from the latest build and then upload. The date won't be slipping the same way that the original release of RS2 did though!

Could you add part of the G5 ReallBadAI battle system like in the CATW mod? That would be great and RS2 desperately needs it imo, the AI in Rome TW is so incredibly dumb, even with Alex.exe. Battles become very boring after like 20 turns into the campaign. I love the unit stats in RS2 and the long battles, but the behaviour of the AI is ridiculous, especially the 'oh let'S charge thie skirmishers....well, we're inside 10 feet now, let's turn around and get killed by their led bullets and spears from behind"-tactics.

RS2 is a seminal mod in many many aspects, but the battle AI sucks to the fullest, making battles very boring quite soon. The campaign balance is hugely off, but I fully expect that to get fixed in 2.6 (you already said so), along with the rebellion bug-fixes it should be almost the finished gem it could (and should) be. Except for the battle AI........I always thought that ReallyBadAI was very good in Medieval II, especially with the hardcore addon. I also niticed huge improvements in CATW on the Alex.exe with part of the G5 script implemented......given the fact it's open source and atleast part of it works with the Rome engine (as proven by CATW) you guys should definitely consider it. It would probably take you one or two days, that's all, but it'S WELL worth that. Trust me.

The first thing I did when I tried De Bello Mundi was implementing ReallyBadAI, it's a whole different experience now.

I think it would refine the RS2 battle experience in a major way.

I love the mod and this is only intended to be constructive criticism. Don't get me wrong folks Just trying to make something very good almost perfect. Cheers

[tone]

Can you point us towards it?