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Thread: stat_health for cavalry

  1. #1
    Byg's Avatar Read The Manual
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    Default stat_health for cavalry

    stat_health 1, 3 (used for heavy)
    stat_health 1, 2 (used for light)

    As above I see that cavalry has a separate number of hit points (the second figure), more for Heavy cavalry than for Light.

    The EDU says:
    ; stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
    ; Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points

    So does this mean that the first value goes unused if the unit in question is cavalry?

    Presumably it also means that a light cav unit with exactly the same armour, attack etc as a heavy cav unit will die quicker. So does this extra hitpoint somehow represent horse size/strength?
    Last edited by Byg; May 08, 2012 at 08:13 AM.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    I thought that only affected auto_resolve? Originally it was supposed to do nothing but then someone claimed with testing that it affects auto_resolve results but I'm not sure if that is true. I do know that in battles only the 1st number matters for the real HP. If you look at TATW or CoW etc mods that make extensive use of units that have multiple hitpoints the first line is the main one changed.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    But are they mounted units?

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  4. #4

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank
    STAT_HEALTH
    First stat is always 1.
    Unless unit is Elephant, second stat varies as below to assist in Autoresolve:

    Foot Unit 1
    Mounted Unit 2
    Missile Unit +1
    Skirmisher Unit +1
    Peasant quality -1
    Peasant Militia quality -1
    Heavy Cavalry +1
    MAXIMUM IS 3
    MINIMUM IS 0

  5. #5
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Right, so using using hit points in is way skews the effects of attack and defence stats and this is why heavy cavalry can kill ten times their own number in human player hands. Even though I am new to exploiting heavy cavalry I now find that all other units are pretty redundant in my battes. I might try unit numbers rather than hit points.
    Last edited by Byg; May 09, 2012 at 03:03 AM.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    ...

    Every unit has 1 HP!

    The secondary HP stat is used for auto-resolve.

    Heavy cavalry can get so many kills because they can charge over and over again and kill huge amounts of enemies each time. Steps have been taken in RC 2.0 to reduce that ability.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Do you know that as a result of testing done as I have now read three completely different explanations?

    If it is as you say then it isn't working well as horse archers are notoriously poor in auto resolve, yet have two hit points at least.

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  8. #8

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by Byg View Post
    Do you know that as a result of testing done as I have now read three completely different explanations?

    If it is as you say then it isn't working well as horse archers are notoriously poor in auto resolve, yet have two hit points at least.
    The auto resolve HP are not worth as much as primary HP. HA also have small numbers and very low overall stats. 4 missile attack 0 armor 0 shield 5 defense skill 4 melee attack 4 charge and small numbers... compared to urban militia with 2-2-7-1-2 for 14 overall stat x 151 numbers 2114 vs HA 17 x 36 = 782 which if you give them 2 secondary HP = 3 HP which might make them 2346 and better than urban militia barely but I don't think the secondary HP are worth as much. Would require more testing but I have tried a few auto resolve battles using HA and they normally lose badly fighting even militia stacks unless +6 XP or more and led by a strong general. Take Scoutatoi- 23 total stats x 102 numbers = 2346 without contribution of secondary HA but they demolish HA in auto resolve despite HA having secondary HP so obviously some of the primary stats are more weight or the unit class also plays a large role. IE- heavy, light, missile, spearman. It would take alot of testing to establish more accurately that no one has done accurately.

    However playing CoW where Orcs have many 2 primary HP heavy units the Orcs own every other faction in autoresolve despite many of the other factions having additional secondary HP and units with far higher total stat counts but classified as "light" such as Elves. In my opinion the secondary HP contributes very little in autoresolve. I have not tested it extensively but just campaign experience leads me to that.

    Heavy cavalry dominate in battles not due to HP- the HP only saves your general from an early death but the relatively high armor, speed, and shock of the charge allow HC to dominate. Discipline attribute I believe allows some units to take a charge better than others where if you charge HC into a disciplined heavy unit even a few seconds into the charge HC begin to fall whereas light units seem to just stand around until charge is nearly over. As far as I can tell the charge value in SS for heavy cavalry is usually waaay to high. I don't think its +12 for the whole units but for each man in the unit so charging in a wide front that puts the most men into contact with the receiving unit kills the most. 24 man unit in 12x2 row vs 6x4 usually the 12x2 will kill 8-12 per man in contact 12 x 10 = 120 kills vs 60 for the other formation which is about true from my experience where a single good charge kills majority of a large unit leaving 20-30 survivors who fight for a few seconds causing 1-2 casualties on the cavalry and then rout.

    Cavalry charge should be powerful but as you know I've killed 2-3,000 enemy with about 200 cavalry in some battles. That seems extreme to me. I know there are some battles in history where such outcomes do occur but they are the rarity and usually involve commander going down in the first clash or the 2-3,000 are poorly trained levies. For 1390 all heavy cavalry move at between .75 and .85 rate so they still outrun infantry but take much longer to position and reform for charges. Much higher penalties in poor terrain as well. They also have normal stamina not all very hardy. Medium cavalry are .85 to 1 speed with a few very good units having hardy trait but none very hardy. Light cavalry move at .9 or 1 speed with often having very hardy and lower penalties in rough terrain. So far it seems to help balance alot as the costs are also much raised for medium and heavy cavalries.
    Last edited by Ichon; May 09, 2012 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    I concur with Ichon and k/t. Mount hit points do not exist for non-elephant cavalry (unless the auto-resolve hit points are in fact hit points of the mount?). I haven't tried it out specifically but I have changed some (cavalry) units secondary hit points without spotting any change on the battle map.

    Yes, horse archers are pathetic in auto-resolve. Spear militia beat horse archer forces that would have annihilated them in the field without any casualties except friendly fire

    Ichon, is it known how fast cavalry really were historically?

    And another thing about speed changes. Most missile cavalry is light. If heavy cavalry is made slower, horse archers will rule (even more?) supreme until plate armour appears. Right now heavy cavalry like feudal knights are about the only really dangerous adversary in my experience.

    I have always assumed that the vigorously defended enormous charge bonuses for cavalry were set in stone among everyone in the Stainless Steel forum.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    I tested anyway. 2nd hitpoint makes no difference in fought battles. What was interesting though was that it appeared in my few tests that the less distance I charged the better result I got ( I charged after the frech started their charge and had barely got moving before impact and initially had less casualties. When i did a longer charge I did less well). Possibly a fluke. I pitted an english feudal knight vs the superior french, having removed the hp bonus from the french. The french did still win as expected in all 3 tests.

    I suppose it is also possible that the lack of 2nd hp reverses the effects of receiving a charge, but that would need more testing and seems unlikely they would have allowed it to do that.
    Last edited by Byg; May 10, 2012 at 02:14 AM.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    I doubt anyone would care to make precise rules about charge speeds of cavalry as it probably varied alot depending on terrain, type or horses, climate, formation being charge, confidence of the men, etc. Generally from what I've read it seems that heavy cavalry were frequently outran. Whether its due to only weight of gear or fatigue its difficult to say as some chronicles say fatigue, others blame slower horses or heavy weight but in modern horse racing the handicaps are relatively small compared to weight of horse armor, weapons, and an armored and shielded rider. The most important point is that what was considered heavy cavalry changed through time. In 1100 a heavy cavalry would be a rider with mail and some light underpadding, relatively large shield on an nearly completely unarmored horse. By 1200s that would be medium cavalry and by 1300s its nearly light cavalry in most regions. So for 1390 mod it is an easier distinction to say heavy cavalry is .8 speed because we are talking about larger horse wearing more armor and bearing a rider also more heavily armored. In 1100 I wouldn't make the distinctions so large but still a bit more than currently. Steppe nomads I would probably have at 1 speed with heavy cavalry at .9 or .95 while perhaps only some Arab, Jinete, or Desert light cavalries getting 1.1 speed and good stamina. So nomad HA could have a very slight speed advantage over early era heavy cavalry while being equal with medium cavalry and a bit slower than lancer light cavalry riding Arabian or other swift horses.

    Yes, 2nd HP in battles makes no difference I am sure. As far as charge distance- if the charging cavalry is impetous or has lower cohesion a lower charge distance = more casualties makes sense as longer distance they charge more space opens between the riders and less men per area of contact.

    If anyone wants to make some tests with 2nd HP in auto resolve battles I'd be interested to hear results because I'm not convinced it has much effect there either.

  12. #12

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank
    MOUNTED CHARGE WEAPONS
    Weapon Type Base ... Base ..Attack
    ......................Attack Charge Delay
    -------------------------------------------------
    spear 2 6 45 0
    non-couched light lance 3 7 60
    couched light lance 1 11 90
    couched lance 0 13 105
    braced lance 0 14 105
    heavy lance 0 15 120

    The high charge bonuses are still there, but PB tried to make it harder for cavalry to pull off good charges.
    Last edited by k/t; May 10, 2012 at 12:35 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    The high charge bonuses are still there, but PB tried to make it harder for cavalry to pull off good charges.
    Yes but to me at least that doesn't slow down charges nearly enough. If we think about it either the cavalry has to get some new lances or at the very least reform their lines which when only communication is by limited means of voice, flags, or trumpets to signal men engaged in melee or chasing routing enemy to reform for another charge somewhere else that is a difficult task accomplished in only a few seconds in the game currently. Slowing down the movement of the HC and lowering stamina eventually makes this task take alot longer and in my test battles at least its not such an easy question to throw in the lancers immediately because now with slower charge and getting tired earlier which slows even more putting lancers in too early is at least some risk instead of nearly guaranteed killing of 20% of the enemy army with hardly any risk. Medium cavalry also becomes much more useful because they move fast enough to charge archers or light cavalry but you have to be careful because they will still fall really quick in a fight with AP heavy infantry.

  14. #14

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Yeah, heavy cavalry have higher heat stat and lower stamina now. I'm not sure about how much their speed has been lowered, but I also hope light cavalry will become more useful. Perhaps light cavalry could get move_speed_mod +0.05 or 0.1?

  15. #15

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Some of these issues are addressed in RC2.0, but yes the secondary HP effect on autoresolve is not as much as it could be. Not much else we can do about that unfortunately.

    I agree a crucial issue is what stamina to allow to different categories of cavalry. RC2.0 has largely re-worked heat penalties but I agree there is a case to allow max stamina to be just normal, ie not hardy etc, for Heavy Cav. Its a complex issue because the mechanism for interaction between heat stat and stamina stat is not entirely clear.

    RC 2.0 cav move speeds range between 0.75xslow_horse_animation and 1.1xfast_horse_animation, this is a very large range.

    Note that in RC2.0 move speeds and indeed all mount stats are modified by the tactical role of the unit, whether Horse Archer/Javelin, Lancer, Charger or Brawler.
    Last edited by Point Blank; June 07, 2012 at 12:20 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Some of these issues are addressed in RC2.0, but yes the secondary HP effect on autoresolve is not as much as it could be. Not much else we can do about that unfortunately.

    I agree a crucial issue is what stamina to allow to different categories of cavalry. RC2.0 has largely re-worked heat penalties but I agree there is a case to allow max stamina to be just normal, ie not hardy etc, for Heavy Cav. Its a complex issue because the mechanism for interaction between heat stat and stamina stat is not entirely clear.

    RC 2.0 cav move speeds range between 0.75xslow_horse_animation and 1.1xfast_horse_animation, this is a very large range.
    RC 2.0 does a great job in most respects. I've only tweaked the values a tiny bit (.05 slower for heavy cavalry and heat a bit higher), also horse armor for me gives at most +1 otherwise its a detraction of -2 up to barded horse which is -1 and eastern armored horse is 0 while cataphract is +1.

    Unit sizes, missile attack, infantry armor, etc most everything except mental stats I follow RC 2.0 exactly. For mental stats I simply made the base 5 for everyone so overall morale is a bit lower though a few units still get up to 16 more have between 7-11 now instead of 10-14.

    Well I am not sure exactly how heat and stamina interact though there is some connection in testing I found the values had to be a bit further apart to be very noticeable. IE- at the end up battles before the heavy cavalry would be exhausted after running over the entire field several times. Now with most heavy cavalry having no extra stamina and higher heat they are exhausted about halfway through the battle.

    I read somewhere that the fast_pony animation was already about 30% faster so giving movement mod increase really makes it much faster- do you know if that was ever true or its fixed now to normal 1.0 speed without any movement mod change? Because in tests it does appear faster but not 30% faster...

  17. #17

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Let's race them and see.

    However, it would make sense for "fast_pony" to be faster than "pony".

  18. #18

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    It is, fast pony uses the 'fast_horse' animation set, pony just uses 'horse'. 'fast_horse' is really meant for thoroughbred Eastern Horses etc, so in RC2.0 fast pony uses 'fast_horse' anim set x mov_speed_mod 0.9 or 0.95, and pony uses 'horse' x 0.95.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    Hi PB, nice to see you again, is it possible to upload your files to other places since my ISP apparently think I don't need to access gamefront
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  20. #20

    Default Re: stat_health for cavalry

    I'm thinking of uploading my entire folder, but its about 11GB

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