The Council of Carthage - Redux!

[El Crumb]

Hello to all and especially fellow Carthaginians.

The motivation behind this new thread is simply, to allow players of Carthage somewhere to voice their views on the faction, progress in their campaigns, tips, stratagies and, of course, a place to curse Romans!

I hope to draw on any advice given here and apply it to a fresh 1-turn campaign with Carthage.

So to business. Carthage is a great faction to start with, it has a number of overseas settlements which I always find challenging, especially at the beginning of a campaign. It has a good recruitment and financial centre with the city of Carthage, plenty of room for expansion in Iberia and Africa and it has an epic foe in the Romans. Everything you need basicly for an exciting campaign.

And did I mention you get Hannibal and war elephants?

Your thoughts, comments and advice please fellow gamers.

[Lt.Speirs]

I cant recall that hannibal actually HAS elephants. When playing as rome you'll almost fight him immediatly and there were no elephants with him

[El Crumb]

I cant recall that hannibal actually HAS elephants. When playing as rome you'll almost fight him immediatly and there were no elephants with him

You are entirely correct in your statement. Hannibal doesn't start with elephants in the campaign, historically too few survived the trek across the alps to feature as a full unit in the game.

What I meant to note was that Carthage does however have access to elephants and can always supply them to Hannibal if he survives long enough!

Personally I'm hoping to ship some to Iberia to scare the bejeesus out of the locals!

[Velico]

Carthage is one of my favorite factions to play as. They have diverse units, imperial ambitions with their sporadic territory, corruption in the far ends of their empire, and a great starting position.

I typically start with ships to ferry Hannibal back for new units and to upgrade them, while building up a fleet to protect against Roman incursions. In the core cities I like to start with money-maker buildings, while on the fringes of the empire I focus on placing governors and building academies/law buildings to combat the rampant corruption. Once Hannibal's army is refitted, I tend to march into Iberia and put all my military focus on the Gallaeci. Solidify the Iberian peninsula, and build up for a war against Rome.

I like to have a strong navy so that I can not only dominate the seas, but ferry troops to wherever I need without hindrance. Once Rome is beaten back (if not completely eliminated) I round up all the free/rebel territories and build up my economy for a while. From there my wrath comes to whomever seems the most dangerous on my borders.

[El Crumb]

Excellent post Velico, sounds like you've enjoyed a campaign or two with the mighty Carthage!

I've only just began my campaign and like you decided to invest what little starting money I had in tax/trade improvements in my core African cities and happiness increasing builds in Iberia. After reviewing the accounts it appears Hannibal has a lot of explaining to do as his forces expenditure accounted for around 80% of my total income! I've had to disband a lot of my garrison troops and ships to try and generate a little more money for building.

I'm going to use Carthage and New Carthage as my military and financial centres, developing my generals and governors there, and my other settlements as tax and trade towns. So to that end I moved all my family members to those two settlements for training.

Now, in Italy I wasn't sure how much I wanted to commit with Hannibal and his troops. I destroyed the legion at the battle of the lake before deciding to march on Rome. Burning my bridges as I went I gifted Genoa to my new allies the Boii. I figured it wasn't a settlement that was going to contribute a lot at this stage of the campaign and that if I lost my battles in Italy an attack by Rome on it's former province would bring the Boii into the fight on my side.

Rome's faction leader led a legion out to give battle with Hannibal but was killed by his Carthaginian rival and his army destroyed. My triumphant troops sacked the city, carrying away its treasures and destroying its great buildings. At this stage of the game I had no intention of trying to hold the city and so I handed over the smoking ruins to the Boii.

If the Romans recover from the loss of their capital they will have to wrest it back from a powerful Boii kingdom. This should leave me clear of their attentions while I develop my own settlements and plan the recapture of the former Carthaginian territories of Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily.

Any thoughts on what I've done so far? Hannibal has had his revenge on Rome, most of his forces are intact and a fleet stands at anchor. Where shall he sail now?

[Velico]

Excellent post Velico, sounds like you've enjoyed a campaign or two with the mighty Carthage!

I've only just began my campaign and like you decided to invest what little starting money I had in tax/trade improvements in my core African cities and happiness increasing builds in Iberia. After reviewing the accounts it appears Hannibal has a lot of explaining to do as his forces expenditure accounted for around 80% of my total income! I've had to disband a lot of my garrison troops and ships to try and generate a little more money for building.

Yeah, that's part of ferrying Hannibal back. I disband the expensive units like the Celtiberian Spearmen and other units that can't be replenished easily (naked fanatics, light swordsmen, etc). They eat up a ton of resources that could be used for better units like the sacred band and early libyan spearmen. I'm more in favor of uniform armies instead of random units. Although it is nice sometimes to have the diversity to counter.

I'm going to use Carthage and New Carthage as my military and financial centres, developing my generals and governors there, and my other settlements as tax and trade towns. So to that end I moved all my family members to those two settlements for training.

Yeah, that's typically what I do as well. I keep New Carthage with Iberian aor troops and a couple Carthage-specific troops so they can be retrained easily. Same goes for Carthage, elephants, sacred band, etc.

Now, in Italy I wasn't sure how much I wanted to commit with Hannibal and his troops. I destroyed the legion at the battle of the lake before deciding to march on Rome. Burning my bridges as I went I gifted Genoa to my new allies the Boii. I figured it wasn't a settlement that was going to contribute a lot at this stage of the campaign and that if I lost my battles in Italy an attack by Rome on it's former province would bring the Boii into the fight on my side.

Yeah, in 1-turn I swap out Hannibal's forces with some of the auxiliary mercenary/celtic, crush Nepos, and use the remaining forces to cause havoc and grind the Roman economy to a halt while preparing a fleet strong enough to sail Hannibal out. I typically don't mess with them too much though because I like a good war with Rome, and prefer to take the Gallaeci out quickly since their units are superior to Carthages.

Any thoughts on what I've done so far? Hannibal has had his revenge on Rome, most of his forces are intact and a fleet stands at anchor. Where shall he sail now?

Seems pretty good. The next question you have to ask is whether or not you want to defeat the Romans now or later. After I cause some havoc I take Emporiae, and sometimes their holds in Sicily, then focus on Iberia. By then your navy should be dominant, and the Gallaeci will have built up a bit. The Romans will most likely be recovering for a while and your economy will start to blossom. The tough part of defeating the Romans that early is full occupation of Italy. The Carthaginian economy just isn't ready for it so, imo, it's not feasible to fully eliminate them. I tend to siege some of their bigger cities and destroy a lot of their infrastructure with the forces that start in Italy then slowly take their imperial gains around the Mediterranean.

[El Crumb]

Well so far, so great! I'm having a tremendous time with Carthage in the opening years of my campaign.

After sacking Rome I marched Hannibal up to Arretium to begin a siege of the town. My spies had done their work however and the gates were open to my forces. Arretium shared the fate of Rome, it's military buildings were torn down and its citizens dispersed. It was then gifted to my allies the Boii, along with some start up capital which would allow them to garrison the town. I can't be sure how successful the Boii will be in holding these former Roman provinces which is why i took the precaution of reducing the settlements militarily, lest they fall back in Roman hands.

With Genoa, Arretium and Rome forming a powerbase for the Boii in Italy and the Romans reeling from their defeats, I decided it was time to move Hannibal on. I will sponsor the Boii as much as is possible as I want them to hold northern Italy for me. They are not at war with anyone else so if the Romans attack they will feel the full wrath of my allies. I will send a diplomat and a spy to keep up to date on the situation.

It's a little tricky to manage but I have enjoyed the diversity of Hannibals forces. The units all look great and do perform well if given the correct roles. My African troops are generally used to hold the line, the Gauls are my offensive arm, my flankers, and my Iberian troops fulfill both roles as and when required.

I marched for Emporiae. The town was held by half a legion and was without fortifications. It was quickly surrounded and the defenders fought to the last in the town square. I decided to continue my approach of gifting former Roman territories to new allies, this time signing over Emporiae to the Arverni who I intend to have fight alongside me against Romans or the Gallaeci.

The Iberians have offered a truce and trade agreements which suits my approach to an Iberian campaign perfectly for now. While my hold on my Iberian possesions grows stronger and my military capability develops in New Carthage I am more then happy for the Galleaci to employ their resources against rebels and the free peoples. When my forces reach full strength and theirs are stretched I shall march on their heartlands.

I think Hannibals next task will be to rearm at New Carthage and then set sail for Sicily. Lilybaeum will be my first target and a staging post for a war to wrest control of the island from Rome.

I'd also like to seek an alliance with the Macedonians and assist them in taking Dyrrachium. Possibly by making use of a marine force, though I'm not clear in my mind the exact composition of such a force. I've seen other players put a whole stack of marines together and send them all over the Mediteranian but I'm thinking of a smaller more elite force. A general, no more then five units of marines, maybe some bowmen and light horse. It's not going to be a force for capturing settlements but a raiding party for taking out small enemy forces and fighting alongside my allies.

[TheJim]

I disbanded and or re-assigned all of my garrison troops. Been consolidating in Spain whilst Hannibal destroys the Romans in Italy. Completely wiped out 5 legions between his and the supporting army. Destroyed Nepos first, then marched to Cannae, annihilating 3 legions on the way down. The supporting army took arretium. Hannibal then captured first Cannae, then Capua. Now, his depleted force has been put on the defensive as Roman stacks are conjured out of nowhere, and Capua remains the only town on the Italian peninsula still in Carthaginian hands. However, a freshly recruited, strong and uniform army from Carthage is only one turn away from lifting the second siege of Capua!

[Velico]

I'd also like to seek an alliance with the Macedonians and assist them in taking Dyrrachium. Possibly by making use of a marine force, though I'm not clear in my mind the exact composition of such a force. I've seen other players put a whole stack of marines together and send them all over the Mediteranian but I'm thinking of a smaller more elite force. A general, no more then five units of marines, maybe some bowmen and light horse. It's not going to be a force for capturing settlements but a raiding party for taking out small enemy forces and fighting alongside my allies.

I've never liked full armies of one troop unit. For marine forces I like to go with this:

1x General
1x Stone Thrower
4x Early Libyan Spearmen
4x Marines
4x Sacred Band
2x Libyan Skirmishers
2x Archers
2x Skirmisher Cav (flank protection from heavy cav in sieges/run down enemies)

If you wanted it to be a dual-purpose, light field army you could sub the stone thrower + 1 sacred band for some heavy cavalry. And perhaps replace Early spearmen with late so you can face stronger opponents in the field. I like the early for their cost effectiveness, but late are great if you can afford them.

[El Crumb]

I disbanded and or re-assigned all of my garrison troops.

I've been employing Caetrati as garrison troops in Iberia. I thought they were pretty good value for money as they are full size infantry units with a very low upkeep cost and they may prove useful as reserves if called upon. Not sure yet what make the best garrison troops in Africa, perhaps the light libyan spearmen? My core settlements are happy with just a governor and his guard for now.

Been consolidating in Spain whilst Hannibal destroys the Romans in Italy. Completely wiped out 5 legions between his and the supporting army. Destroyed Nepos first, then marched to Cannae, annihilating 3 legions on the way down. The supporting army took arretium. Hannibal then captured first Cannae, then Capua.

Congratulations on your run of victories against the legions. What do you find are your most effective tactics? I usually try and engage the cohorts in a single line with my spearmen. I let my skirmishers or slingers soak some of the pilum showers initially and try and work my light infantry into flanking positions. My cavalry take out the opposing skirmishers/archers/cavalry and generals before hitting the engaged cohorts in the rear. Simple but effective. I'm going to experiment with deploying horsemen behind enemy stacks as battle reinforcements. Not sure how the A.I. will use them though. I hope they will skirmish and draw away enemy units from my main army and not charge hell for leather into spearmen!

Now, his depleted force has been put on the defensive as Roman stacks are conjured out of nowhere, and Capua remains the only town on the Italian peninsula still in Carthaginian hands. However, a freshly recruited, strong and uniform army from Carthage is only one turn away from lifting the second siege of Capua!

What is your long term strategy in Italy? Do you think you can hold what you capture against Rome?

My plan is to keep Rome fighting on a number of fronts, stretching their resources and attention. Once I've taken Sicily, or at least Lilybaeum, I'll consider striking for Sardinia and Corsica.
As you can see my short term plan is to recover the lost possessions of the first punic war. After that I should be in a strong enough position to invade southern Italy and hold some of the settlements there. Thats what I'm hoping anyway!

[El Crumb]

I've never liked full armies of one troop unit. For marine forces I like to go with this:

1x General
1x Stone Thrower
4x Early Libyan Spearmen
4x Marines
4x Sacred Band
2x Libyan Skirmishers
2x Archers
2x Skirmisher Cav (flank protection from heavy cav in sieges/run down enemies)

If you wanted it to be a dual-purpose, light field army you could sub the stone thrower + 1 sacred band for some heavy cavalry. And perhaps replace Early spearmen with late so you can face stronger opponents in the field. I like the early for their cost effectiveness, but late are great if you can afford them.

Some good ideas there. I don't care for single unit stacks either, I find them really unappealing. I've decided against naval siege forces as the A.I. can rarely guard against them and I want to give myself a real challenge with this campaign. I'll tinker around with my compositions, but I may just go with a few units of marines to act as reinforcements for my land forces. How are you employing your marine forces?

I've not used the sacred band yet but I'm going to recruit some for the invasion of Sicily and look forward to seeing how they perform. Any tips?

[Velico]

Some good ideas there. I don't care for single unit stacks either, I find them really unappealing. I've decided against naval siege forces as the A.I. can rarely guard against them and I want to give myself a real challenge with this campaign. I'll tinker around with my compositions, but I may just go with a few units of marines to act as reinforcements for my land forces. How are you employing your marine forces?

I've not used the sacred band yet but I'm going to recruit some for the invasion of Sicily and look forward to seeing how they perform. Any tips?

Yeah I hear you on "pirating" the AI, I do it when I have an open front with them and am containing them well enough to send an auxiliary force. I figure, if I can handle them at a main front, and have enough money to support an auxiliary force, then it's fair game.

As for using marines, since the Carthaginian ones launch javelins I use them in the second line either to support the first line or act as shock troops on the flanks when they're secure.

Sacred band are, imo, one of the most cost effective units in the game. Use them, they are awesome. Both the infantry and cavalry are superb, the only thing that sucks is retraining them. Since they're "elite" units, I tend to only have 2-4 units and use them mainly when things are not going my way. I think they have "inspire nearby troops" and "frightens enemy" so even just sitting behind the main line they are worth having.

[TheJim]

I've been employing Caetrati as garrison troops in Iberia. I thought they were pretty good value for money as they are full size infantry units with a very low upkeep cost and they may prove useful as reserves if called upon. Not sure yet what make the best garrison troops in Africa, perhaps the light libyan spearmen? My core settlements are happy with just a governor and his guard for now.



Congratulations on your run of victories against the legions. What do you find are your most effective tactics? I usually try and engage the cohorts in a single line with my spearmen. I let my skirmishers or slingers soak some of the pilum showers initially and try and work my light infantry into flanking positions. My cavalry take out the opposing skirmishers/archers/cavalry and generals before hitting the engaged cohorts in the rear. Simple but effective. I'm going to experiment with deploying horsemen behind enemy stacks as battle reinforcements. Not sure how the A.I. will use them though. I hope they will skirmish and draw away enemy units from my main army and not charge hell for leather into spearmen!



What is your long term strategy in Italy? Do you think you can hold what you capture against Rome?

My plan is to keep Rome fighting on a number of fronts, stretching their resources and attention. Once I've taken Sicily, or at least Lilybaeum, I'll consider striking for Sardinia and Corsica.
As you can see my short term plan is to recover the lost possessions of the first punic war. After that I should be in a strong enough position to invade southern Italy and hold some of the settlements there. Thats what I'm hoping anyway!

Tactics have varied somewhat based on Terrain, enemy army composition and my own troop depletion. The general tactic, up until the last field battle before the seiges started when I had few troops, was as follows:

African infantry in the centre, with Hannibal behind, Celts/Gauls on the left flank (with infantry in front and cavalry behind and to the flank) and Iberians on the right flank (same setup as the gauls, but with numidians supporting the spanish cavalry.) The skirmishers and slingers would screen the entire front, spread out and used to absorb pila and harrass the enemy right flank, concentrating the far left unit. As the lines closed, and the enemy stopped to start throwing pila, the gallic infantry would charge, whilst the spanish and numidian cavalry would engage the roman cavalry, keeping its distance and isolating it before charging to destroy it. The rest of the infantry would engage, with the Libyans and heavy spanish spearmen absorbing much of the roman attack with few casualties, while the gauls press hard on the roman right, substantially weakened now, and begin to turn that flank. With the roman cavalry destroyed, the spanish and numidian cavalry return to throw what remains of their missiles into the backs of the roman infantry, whilst the heavy gallic cavalry wheels around the roman left, and charges when Roman morale begins to waver. This normally results in a chain rout, and not more than 6 romans have left the field alive in any of my battles so far.

[TheJim]

In terms of my long term plans, I don't plan to hold Capua. It will be very costly for me to do so, so I'll relieve the seige with the relief force, destroy the remaining Legions in the area and then march Hannibal and his fresh army south, burning Capua and sacking all of the southern Roman cities on the way, before heading to Sicily and hopefully wresting control of it from the Romans. With Carthage itself so close and Hannibal commanding a large, fresh army against the almost non existent Roman presence on the island, it shouldn't be hard. The Romans, although having been able to force me out of Italy, have been left reeling by the expenditure of creating so many armies and having them destroyed more quickly than they can be raised. This has allowed me to secure my position in Iberia, and will soon take Emporae. The other advantage is that their war with me has made them unable to expand to the North and unable to hold their settlement on Macedonian lands. When I also control Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, and have all of their ports blockaded, they will be surrounded by enemies and landlocked, whilst being severely weakened. At this point, my plan will be to seal off Northern Italy with two full stacks, whilst invading from southern Italy and making my way up. The two Northern stacks will then take Arretium and Arminium and all that will be left to fall is Rome itself! I don't know what my plans are for after I've defeated the Romans just yet.

[El Crumb]

Yeah I hear you on "pirating" the AI, I do it when I have an open front with them and am containing them well enough to send an auxiliary force. I figure, if I can handle them at a main front, and have enough money to support an auxiliary force, then it's fair game.

Just to be clear, are you describing attacking an enemy city with an auxillary force which is operating behind enemy lines? I think that's fair enough, because as you are looking to outmanouver the enemy's forces they are still able to react to your actions. I wouldn't condemn anyone for landing, sieging and sacking an enemy city in one turn but I want the challenge of fighting my way past the foe or at least winning past them with some shrewd manouvering to put their cities under direct pressure.

As for using marines, since the Carthaginian ones launch javelins I use them in the second line either to support the first line or act as shock troops on the flanks when they're secure.

Yea, I think they'll be perfect as a supporting line, flankers or A.I. led reinforcements. I'm not used to fighting with the A.I. in control of my reinforcements, too many bad memories of my prized general and elite units being flung into combat by the A.I. unsupported and way before I can reach them. Ack. But, I'm going to try it out as I think having a few units attacking from the enemies rear at a crucial time in the battle will be a game winner. I'll also put these units ashore to fight alongside my allies when possible.

Sacred band are, imo, one of the most cost effective units in the game. Use them, they are awesome. Both the infantry and cavalry are superb, the only thing that sucks is retraining them. Since they're "elite" units, I tend to only have 2-4 units and use them mainly when things are not going my way. I think they have "inspire nearby troops" and "frightens enemy" so even just sitting behind the main line they are worth having.

Sweet! I'll recruit a few units for the Sicily campaign. I'm really looking forward to how they perform. I should be able to retrain at Carthage, it's a short trip after all, so they should be back in the field for the following campaign season.

for all the advice and insight into this great faction!

Have you had much success in deploying elephants in battle? Whenever I've used them they've been shot up, taken down by skirmishers or spearmen and generally had a really tought time of it.

Any advice from all elephant commanders is welcome!

[El Crumb]

In terms of my long term plans, I don't plan to hold Capua. It will be very costly for me to do so, so I'll relieve the seige with the relief force, destroy the remaining Legions in the area and then march Hannibal and his fresh army south, burning Capua and sacking all of the southern Roman cities on the way, before heading to Sicily and hopefully wresting control of it from the Romans. With Carthage itself so close and Hannibal commanding a large, fresh army against the almost non existent Roman presence on the island, it shouldn't be hard. The Romans, although having been able to force me out of Italy, have been left reeling by the expenditure of creating so many armies and having them destroyed more quickly than they can be raised. This has allowed me to secure my position in Iberia, and will soon take Emporae. The other advantage is that their war with me has made them unable to expand to the North and unable to hold their settlement on Macedonian lands. When I also control Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, and have all of their ports blockaded, they will be surrounded by enemies and landlocked, whilst being severely weakened. At this point, my plan will be to seal off Northern Italy with two full stacks, whilst invading from southern Italy and making my way up. The two Northern stacks will then take Arretium and Arminium and all that will be left to fall is Rome itself! I don't know what my plans are for after I've defeated the Romans just yet.

Sounds like a good plan! You're smashing through those legions in real style. I think and it seems to be the consensus around here that Sicily is your best bet for a take and hold style campaign at this stage. I'm really hoping the Romans try and stop me there when I land as I want some epic tussles in Pyrhus' old stomping ground.

How do you plan to get to north Italy? Are you going to march overland or sail there? I was planning to strike Rome from the south, via Sicily, concentrating on wresting the southern settlements from roman control. If by that stage I've taken the coastal settlements in southern Gaul and I'll march troops from Spain into the north of Italy to split the foe and support the forces in the south.

After winning Iberia and Italy I guess my next move would be Greece or possibly Egypt. Or you could look to subjugate the whole of Gaul and add Britannia to your posessions.

[Velico]

Have you had much success in deploying elephants in battle? Whenever I've used them they've been shot up, taken down by skirmishers or spearmen and generally had a really tought time of it.

Any advice from all elephant commanders is welcome!

Yeah I use them in some armies. Mostly depends on who I'm fighting. If the enemy has a lot of skirmishers/ranged units I tend not to use them and sub them out for light or heavy cavalry. It is nice to have one unit in an army though, I wait until the main lines meet, and once the flanks are secure I'll send in the elephants on the weakest enemy unit. The devastation is wholesale, it's pretty much an insta rout for the whole line if timed well. Especially if you have fear bonus nearby, I prefer the Libyan Cavalry because they're cheap, their stats are good for what you get, and they have frighten enemy which is just awesome.

My usual course of battle when using elephants is to skirmish their skirmishers so that they're occupied, use my sacred band cavalry and libyan cavalry to smash theirs, and lock main lines. Once their cavalry are routed, I bring them back for the bonuses they give and send in the elephants. By then there is usually a unit of theirs that is close to breaking and that's where I send the elephants. As long as they can be protected, they don't die easily.

[El Crumb]

I'm going to post some pics here of my fledgling empire as I'm really pleased with how things have gone so far.

My Boii allies have held the northern Italian cities and Rome, they have reinforced their garrisons and are now looking to expand from there at the expense of the local free peoples. A battle took place at Mediolanum, although it look slike the Boii have been repulsed for now. They are still at peace with the Romans, but...

The Romans are mustering forces around Capua, they have two or three legions gathered and are most likely readying for an assault on their former provinces. Macedonia has taken Dyrrachium from them, although I see two full legions in the area of the balkans. I'm not sure, however, in which direction they are marching. They may be marching against the Macedonians or heading north to fight the Boii.

In Iberia my towns grow and prosper. The mines are in full production and my coffers fill with the proceeds each turn. Governors and fresh troops are deployed from New Carthage bringing extra stability to the area.

The Galleaci have not expanded anywhere as yet, so the free people are still acting as a buffer between our two nations. If they do attack I intend to take their nearest town and gift it to the free people, denying them access to my lands except through hostile territory. Then when my towns are secure I'll take the fight to them.

My profits are running at around 15,000 Denerii per turn and so I have plenty of money for garrisons, buildings and supporting and retraining Hannibals veteran stack. Corruption is still an issue in some areas but I'm trying to whittle this down whenever I can. I'm using governors and buildings which help reduce the levels of corruption, not sure what, if anything else I can do about it. I certainly don't intend to move my capital!

Hannibal has arrived back in Carthage after his exploits in Italy and Iberia. His troops are being re-armed before I send them to Sicily and our former province of Lilybaeum. Sicily is under garrisoned by the Romans from what I can see, so their will be little resistance at first but I hope the Romans will put up a fight for the island once i've taken another town from them.

So there we are. It's all ticking along nicely!

[El Crumb]

Here are a couple of screenies showing how things are after the start of my campaign



This is how I've left things in Italy with the Boii running things in the north.



My African territories prosper and taxes flow.

[Ferdiad]

So how strong is Carthaes economy in relation to Romes?