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Thread: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

  1. #81

    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    I actually dont think you need to be teaching religion during highschool. It's a time of life when people are often experiencing their first "real" problems, they're in way over their head and are quite vulnerable to suggestion. Hitting them with religion then would, in my opinion be quite unethical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    That may be true for Grade 7-9's but i think you find once you get half way through Highschool you are quite capable of making your own choices and seeing the flaws in things. Teenagers are going to be critical of what the world tells them, better to give them all the options then rather then when they are older with views set in stone

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    I actually dont think you need to be teaching religion during highschool. It's a time of life when people are often experiencing their first "real" problems, they're in way over their head and are quite vulnerable to suggestion. Hitting them with religion then would, in my opinion be quite unethical.

    I disagree and think you're thinking about it the wrong way. In a public high school the students can, and I think should, learn about religion. Learning about the world's religions is different than being told one is right. That would be against the law. I taught my students about religion. No one converted just because they learned about them. If anything, they probably learned more about Star Trek from me than about religion.

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  4. #84

    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    If anything, they probably learned more about Star Trek from me than about religion.
    I would go to that class .Much more interesting then hearing the same stories about Christ and Buda over and over again .

  5. #85

    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by SLN445 View Post
    Still far preferable to have parents teach their own children their views rather then forcing a school to teach it.
    Would you say that if the parents were nazis? Or if they had a religion that compelled them to hate an ethnic minority?


  6. #86

    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Would you say that if the parents were nazis? Or if they had a religion that compelled them to hate an ethnic minority?
    No, but that's a such an extreme example. Besides, children turn to more than just their parents for such teachings. They usually get influenced more by their friends than their family - so unless Nazism is becoming at least a measurable part of that community, such teachings won't take full effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Yeah, it gets complicated when parents teach their kids hateful stuff. What happens at home doesn't stay at home. Kids bring what their parents teach them to the classroom, the playground, and friends' houses.

    That's why I think the US seriously needs to ratify the UNICEF Convention on the Rights of the Child. It's embarrassing that it hasn't done so already.
    Last edited by IronBrig4; May 08, 2012 at 03:04 AM.

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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Would you say that if the parents were nazis? Or if they had a religion that compelled them to hate an ethnic minority?
    Frankly their is a lot of that some parents do that i dont agree with such as having their child circumcised or fatting them up on junk food, still doesnt mean we have the right to interfere unless its harmfull to the Child... which Religion isnt considered to be by most Countries.

  9. #89
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    No one of note has ever claimed that the nonexistence of God is an empirically verifiable fact. Some people have tried to make the converse claim though; that the existence of God is empirically verifiable. For examples see the argument from design, and natural theology generally. So science is not completely irrelevant to the issue of whether God exists or not. Athiests have typically felt the need to respond to the argument from design, and natural theology in general, by showing that nothing in science requires the existence of God. To make that argument it helps to know something about science.

    There is also a further type of philosophical argument, made from some principle of simplicity (often Ocam's Razor), that if God is not needed in any scientific explanation then the rational view to adopt is that God does not exist.

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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    The big bang might be a bit difficult but science can explain how planets, rocks and suns formed and continue to form. Life on Earth can easily have formed without a god. I cant nor do I think Science can really explain how or why the big bang happened but science can show how life formed absent of god.

    Creationism though or any literal interpretation of the bible accepts whatever the bible says that humans coexisted with the dinosaurs, all the dinosaurs were land animals and were created at the same time and to top it off they were vegetarians. But God (being all knowing) decided to wipe out the dinosaurs and then forgive himself later by being born in the womb of a virgin. And despite a lack of evidence for biblical characters and places like Babel (which is prob babylon) the bible is still true - because its the word of god. And if you dont understand then you have not accepted Jesus into your heart yet. And who is Jesus? Jesus is God.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; May 08, 2012 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    There are empirical phenomena that are not explained by science, but that is beside the point. Natural theology holds that there are empirical phenomena that have scientific explanations and that some of those scientific explanations involve God. Atheists take the view that no scientific explanations need to involve God.

    On specific questions like "what caused the big bang" athiests typically take the view that adding God to the picture adds nothing to the explanation except further unexplained complications.

  12. #92
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    There are empirical phenomena that are not explained by science, but that is beside the point. Natural theology holds that there are empirical phenomena that have scientific explanations and that some of those scientific explanations involve God. Atheists take the view that no scientific explanations need to involve God.
    exactly.


    On specific questions like "what caused the big bang" athiests typically take the view that adding God to the picture adds nothing to the explanation except further unexplained complications.
    Well it does. Saying God did it creates even more problems. Creationists cant figure out how dinosaurs could have existed and lived at the same time as man (since earths history is only around 10k years old... so instead of adjusting their timeline they just say God did it but then undid it because he realized he made a mistake... dinos were just too big.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    dinos were just too big.
    Oh stop it.
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  14. #94

    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Saying god created the universe does not create more problems. It solves them. Does not prove anything but does solve the problem.

    Who created the universe? God did.
    Why? Because.

    My father could explain it better.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    They call that the God of Gaps or something don't they? if we cant explain something now with our current knowledge and technology we just say "Oh god must of done it."

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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    Actually Dawkin says that the Universe is not consistent with an intelligent designer in the video I posted, so this is not about disproving particular divine attributes a but a blanker rejection of divinity.

    If ''It is simply a lack of belief'' then we wouldn't be having this discussion, because there is nothing new about disbelief and even opening the Bible and the Coran would provide ample examples of disbelief, so it is not something new that religions have to deal with. The problem here is people like Dawkins giving opinion on the matter with inappropriate qualifications.
    Show me some quotes of Dawkins that makes you believe what you believe please.

    (and PM me about my books, what happened?)

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    Actually Dawkin says that the Universe is not consistent with an intelligent designer in the video I posted, so this is not about disproving particular divine attributes a but a blanker rejection of divinity.

    If ''It is simply a lack of belief'' then we wouldn't be having this discussion, because there is nothing new about disbelief and even opening the Bible and the Coran would provide ample examples of disbelief, so it is not something new that religions have to deal with. The problem here is people like Dawkins giving opinion on the matter with inappropriate qualifications.
    Show me some quotes of Dawkins that makes you believe what you believe please.
    It's a long time since I read the The Blind Watchmaker but I seem to remember Dawkins making an argument like this. But that argument wasn't meant to be a proof that God doesn't exist, it was merely a counter to the argument from design. Dawkins argued that life looks like the result of a blind process like evolution, not like the work of a super intelligent designer, but that would still be consistent with the existence of a God who merely set evolution in motion. So this is not meant to be a scientific argument for the non-existence of God.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; May 09, 2012 at 09:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    It's a long time since I read the The Blind Watchmaker but I seem to remember Dawkins making an argument like this. But that argument wasn't meant to be a proof that God doesn't exist, it was merely a counter to the argument from design. Dawkins argued that life looks like the result of a blind process like evolution, not like the work of a super intelligent designer, but that would still be consistent with the existence of a God who merely set evolution in motion. So this is not meant to be a scientific argument for the non-existence of God.
    I'm rather tired of people arguing what people have supposedly said so I deliberately desire exact and sourceable quotes within that context. If people believe they know exactly what Dawkins believe they must have specific quotes to back it up and I'd like to examine it in context, and I'll be honest Dawkins is somewhat rudimentary for me despite being a rather exceptional writer from what I can tell. That is to say rudimentary in the things I wish to read, he could tell me a tale or two on biology it just holds no interest for me.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I'm rather tired of people arguing what people have supposedly said so I deliberately desire exact and sourceable quotes within that context. If people believe they know exactly what Dawkins believe they must have specific quotes to back it up and I'd like to examine it in context, and I'll be honest Dawkins is somewhat rudimentary for me despite being a rather exceptional writer from what I can tell. That is to say rudimentary in the things I wish to read, he could tell me a tale or two on biology it just holds no interest for me.
    That's quite reasonable. I really doubt that Dawkins has ever said that science can prove the non-existence of God. I think this whole thread is about Berlinski failing to understand the state of the debate between theists and atheists.

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    Default Re: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    That's quite reasonable. I really doubt that Dawkins has ever said that science can prove the non-existence of God. I think this whole thread is about Berlinski failing to understand the state of the debate between theists and atheists.
    Much like pretty much every other argument put forward in this vein I've no doubt you are correct. It is an almost futile escapade inhabiting these threads, I almost think that one could draw up a library of generic responses and put "insert these into appropriate argument" and it would suffice.

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