Japanese Edo/Meiji Modern Fortifications

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

Japanese Edo Modern Fortifications

To be honest, I don't know where to post this thread and I hope it wasn't already treated (I've done a quick search, and found nothing)

The title says it all... Since the last TW games, I felt the siege gameplay was suffering from a lack of realism and modernization.

With Shogun 2, castle sieges were improved greatly aside from the "monkey like" soldiers that can climb walls as they wish LOL Yes Japanese castles were sometimes assaulted by infantry, but it was made when the attacker had the superiority and it was done quickly and with surprise!

It was most of the time "European like" sieges (with siege towers, battering ram, palisades for archers, ladders...) But really, whole armies that climb the huge well defended walls, that's a big joke.

Anyway, when I saw the new Fall of the Samurai Shogun 2, I was hoping to see new castles made for the game's time period. Sadly, all I found was old Edo castles, not improved, which are now very obselete with all the canons! Come on, I was hoping for 19th century sieges, with trenches, mortars, and "Vauban like" forts.

Of course, most of all the castles were still "Edo like". But the Shogunate had built some modern castles from the North to the South of Japan.

Most known exemple would be the Goryokaku fort, built by the Tokugawa from 1857 to 1866, located in Hokkaido. [Link]

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An other exemple of modern fortifications in Japan with Hekirichi fort, built by Matsumae Takahiro in 1855 in Hokkaido. It was made of earthen walls with dry moat, and the building foundation were made of stones.

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The Benten Daiba fortress was built by Takeda Ayasaburo around 1868-1869 in Hokkaido. It was a sea battery as well as a key fort for the city.

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Shiryokaku Fort built by Otori Keisuke and French advisor Jules Brunet in 1864 in Hokkaido (most were built there because of fears of Russian foreign invasion and also because they were not destroyed after for housing)

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There is also the Tatsuoka Castle built by Matssudaira Norikata in 1864 in Nagano. This is one of only two 5 point sar shaped forts in Japan. lso, despite taking in the elements of a European star shaped fortress the moats are fairly narrow and shallow so it would not have been a very strong fortress.

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For those who went to Tokyo, you may have seen strange islands in the Tokyo bay. Well, they are fortified islands built to protect the harbor of Tokyo. The battery at Shinagawa was one of them. It was built by Egawa Hidetatsu around 1853.

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And the other Odaiba island forts constructed in 1853 in Tokyo bay as a series of 6 fortresses in order to protect Tokyo from attak by sea.

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The Tomogashima and Torajima batteries and Miyama fort were built during the Meiji period, around 1870s in Kansai

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The Sarushima fort located in Kanto region was built during the Meiji period, circa 1870s.

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The Wadamisaki Battery in Kobe, designed by Kaishu Katsu, the structure was completed in 1864. It is today situated on a Mitsubishi factory. The battery was surrounded by a star-shaped soil mound, about 70 meters north and south, and 60 meters east and west, those days.

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Earthworks for sieges are important too and missing from a supposed 19th century game. Here a very old pictures took after the siege of Shiroyama in 1879. You can clearly see the sandbags, trenches...

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The Imperial besiegers constructed stronger, similar fortifications (including trenches and other earthworks) near the base of the hill. Mounsey (1879) reports that these works were sufficient to destroy several small units - either patrols, trench raids, or attempted breakouts - over the initial days of the siege. The Imperial earthworks were completed by 10 SEP, and construction of artillery emplacements began. The Imperial batteries included mortars (obviously the most effective way of hitting the summit crater) was well as heavy naval guns. Mounsey (1879) states that the artillery fire was heavy, and that under the cover of this fire saps (covered trenches) were constructed up the slopes of the hill. The bombardment seems to have been very severe, costing the defenders several hundred casualties. Several preliminary attacks appear to have been made over the next two weeks.

And for the old Edo castles, they were modernized too. First, the game doesn't take in account the fact soldiers were protected behind their walls. I know it was made for the gameplay so you could assault ennemy forts easily (because Shogun 2 doesn't have a realistic siege gameplay, so if the defenders were well protected, it would have been impossible to assault ingame the castles). But sadly, the Fall of the Samurai game doesn't take into account the add of artillery in the castles. Like in ETW, we should be able to have guns alongside the walls of the old Edo castles!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know all of that is impossible to add ingame, except if it's done by CA. But it's just for you guys too know. It's interesting to see the not only for Infantry and Navy had Japan modernized its army during the 19th century. Forts were modernized too. I think it's really sad it's missing from the game.

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At last, two very interesting website pages about the Japanese walls:

http://www.jcastle.info/resources/view/109

And the Japanese moats:

http://www.jcastle.info/resources/view/20

And many more about all the structures of a Japanese castle. Enjoy

http://www.jcastle.info/resources/view/78-Structures

What's missing anyway depending of the castle or fort period. The loopholes that protect the defenders. How come in the game the assaulting force can kill the defenders easily, they are supposed to be in a castle, protected!

The loopholes sama (狭間) were holes built into the walls for firing arrows or guns. These are an important defensive structure and we see records of them dating back to the Heian Period. Loopholes designed for arrows were generally rectangles on end and those for firearms were circles, triangles, or squares. Some loopholes were hidden by a door or plug that matched the surface on the outside to prevent detection by attackers. These are called kakushizama.

[rekishiotaku]

very interesting, I actually though Goryokaku was unique I didn't know there were so many other European style forts in Japan. I too find the wall climbing unrealistic.

[The_Nord]

Wow! Thank you! Great stuff, I've got quite the interest for fortifications and didn't know alot about fortifications in Japan post Sengoku-jidai, +rep!

[Erwin Rommel]

I doubt they could squeeze in that much content anymore in a mere expansion.

Maybe for a full fledged game but unfortunately, the Boshin War is treated as an expansion.

To be honest I never really expect the vauban forts coz you know only like 2 are really really known, both in Hokkaido, the Goryokaku and the Benten Daiba, yes you mentioned some but they arent as prominent. Seriously, the Shinsengumi fought in Benten Daiba!

Then again, I was honestly surprise they managed to include coastal siege IN A BATTLEMAP, when in that era it was prominent already, I was thinking, no it cant be possible, maybe some elaborate Campaign map mechanism but not a new gameplay element. So yeah, its kinda a plus even if its not elaborate like including islands with battery of cannons.

Sadly, all I found was old Edo castles, not improved, which are now very obselete with all the canons! Come on, I was hoping for 19th century sieges, with trenches, mortars, and "Vauban like" forts.

S2 castles are not Edo like, they are late Sengoku, IMHO, I mean Matsumoto is vastly different from an Edo-castle like Kumamoto.

And unfortunately.



This picture clearly shows Korean walls, showing samurai using nicked Korean cannons. And its Imjin War, my memory is hazy, I cant decide if this is Ulsan or Busan, my bet is Busan, seriously, those are not kuruwa (kinda nice that they added dobei on the wall )

(Yeah I know its possible that they deploy cannons on the kuruwa but come on, dont show Imjin, show like Siege of Aizuwakamatsu or something )

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

Haha, yeah indeed it's a korean siege picture, but the guys on the walls are japanese. Sadly, I couldn't find a nice picture to depict the idea to have gun on the walls like in ETW. It was pretty common, and from the castles I visited in Japan, we could see the spot were they were installed.

Of course, not all castles were "Vauban like". Most of the siege happened at Sengoku castles. But we could have had the opportunity to upgrade some castles to modern forts, why not (and our generals could build earthwork forts like at Shiryokaku)

Well, I must agree coastal siege is awesome and very welcome. This is why it was strange there was no other siege improvements. On one hand modern batteries but on the other hand old castles?

Yeah, I forgot to mention the Benten Daiba. I edited the first post. Thx

S2 castles are not Edo like, they are late Sengoku, IMHO, I mean Matsumoto is vastly different from an Edo-castle like Kumamoto.

Well, of course, but you get my point ^^ Efdo/Sengoku castles don't stand a chance against modern artillery. Late Edo "Vauban" castles were used in Hokkaido. Others are not well known and most of them deseapered because of housing issues (there were forts around Tokyo too, but they deseapered long ago).

PS: I added some new fort and batteries (Kansai, Tokyo and Kobe)

[Erwin Rommel]

Efdo/Sengoku castles don't stand a chance against modern artillery.

Oh? But the mound can never be completely removed.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53225

It was pretty common, and from the castles I visited in Japan, we could see the spot were they were installed.

Lemme guess, calibres are limited to saker sizes?

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

Of course the mound stands, but if the defenders are all dead, it's hard to defend it xD

I don't know what's a saker sizes, but it's was mostly "wall guns" and small calibered canons. Not big canons like modern forts or ETW forts. I'm no specialist, I just saw them represented on drawings in some castles. The kind of small canon, like here at Matsumoto

[Erwin Rommel]

Lol. Thats even smaller than a saker. No wonder I heard this towers with "cannons" in them some commented that they are nothing more than glorified matchlocks.

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

Oh, I understand, you mean the Saker guns LOL my bad. Yes, it's much smaller, it's between "wall guns" and "saker guns". But it's enough to kill some soldiers at long range. Sadly, I don't know its name!

The glorified matchlocks would be more something like "wall guns" or should I say "matchlock wall gun". It was longer than matchlock and could shot at longer ranges. But you could use it only with a support, such as loopholes in the wall.
Here an exemple with a korean matchlock wall gun, the cheonbochong.

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It's a 19th century Japanese printing, Hokusai Manga, depicting "wall matchlocks" gunners.

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Something else that could have been used on the walls and towers were the Japanese ozutsu (hand held cannon), Hiya Tanzutsu (Bo Hiya) and cannons Ozutsu

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Cannons of this type were originally produced to fire flaming arrows primarily in naval warfare and then fire grenade in siege warfare.

For the cannon like model (the one that could be used for the walls or towers, the last three pictures), the underside of the stock was designed to rest flat on its firing platform. But the top aperture was intended for the use of a portable-firing stand.