Modelling Questions (especially about the compatibility of "sculptris")

[Kaunitz]

Hello!

After very frustrating modelling attempts with blender and milkshape, I've found "sculptris" (it's free! ). It seems as if this is the only programm that enables an absolute newbie like me to create models that look okay. Now, before I delve fully into it and spend lots of time, I wanted to ask some expert if there are any problems to use the models that I create in sculptris in the game? One can reduce the triangle amount in sculptris, so that the models won't have more polygons than the original files. Also, I've already successfully exported a hat into milkshape. So basically speaking, do you know of any "hidden" obstacles or can I continue to model and to learn (and ask ) about LODs, atlases, etc.? I haven't found a lot of posts/topics about sculptris in this board, so I'm kind of insecure.

scratch built WIP tricorn in sculptris (by far too many polygons, don't worry about them; edges need to be smoothened, etc. etc.)


(One problem I had when I tried to import a vanilla coat into sculptris is that an error message popped up telling me that there were too many faces connected to a single point/vertice - is there a way around that? Modelling coats from scratch seems to be a bit difficult )

[wangrin]

This software seems interesting.
Maybe not to create a new model but to optimize it or help to create a "real" normal_map texture.

About your problem with "too many faces connected to a single point/vertice", what models do you have used ?
Sometime some faces are duplicated due to mistake when modifying a model.
Sometime too, a single point (vertex) isn't a real one, it can be a superposition of vertice. It is necessary to "weld" them with MilkShape to be sure that will form only one vertex.
The problem when you weld vertice (ctrl+W) is that you often have to rework the UV map.

Question : did Scluptris manage skeleton (joints) and vertex weight ?
If not, you will have to reassign all vertice to theirs joints with Milkshape.

[lordargento]

This program seems to be promising... will it be our panacea to create/modify a good map?

[wangrin]

I don't think this tool could be use to create map.
The normal_map is a "texture" that is used to create more 3D details on a 3D model.

Generally, this texture is create using the diffuse texture, Photoshop and NVidia plugin.
Sculptris, like Blender, allow to "sculpt" the original model, adding details such as crease.
Then, it is possible to extract the normal_map from the model itself instead of the diffuse texture.


EDIT : Sculptris : cheat shets
Useful to keep it next to your mouse ^^

EDIT : It seems that you have to use .obj file format to export sculptris objects and import them into MilkShape and vice versa (Sculptris description).
This means you will loose informations about vertex weights.
So, you will have to reassign each vertex to its joint(s).

I think it's not a good idea to use Sculptris to modify an existing model due to this "little problem".
Assigning vertex weight is already a "nightmare" when you modify an existing model, and doing the same for a whole model...
But this software can be interesting if you create a completely new model.

[Kaunitz]

Thanks for your answer, Wangrin!

Unfortunately sculptris can't work with skeletons. So: if I would import a vanilla coat model as an obj-file into sculptris, modify it and then re-export it to milkshape, I would have to re-assign thousands of vertices to the bones? So it would be impossible for complicated models such as coats?

I'm still at the very beginning. Yesterday I learned what faces and vertices are. Just to get things right, I wanted to ask if the following procedure for creating a model is correct (taking my tricorn as an example)l:

1. Create model in sculptris (as few triangles as possible!)
2. Export the model as an obj-file and open it in milkshape
3. get model into the correct position on the skeletons head
4. Assign all the vertices of my hat to the joint "head" (thanks for the tutorial, wangrin )
5. Create the groups for the other, less detailed LODs. I have no clue how to do that yet. Is there a way to"automatically" reduce the amount of polygons in milkshape? "Direct X Mesh Tools"? So I need to duplicate the LOD0 model and then reduce the clones' amount of polygones (and make some corrections) and repeat that process again for every LOD? I can't simply do that in sculptris, creating a model for each LOD, because then I would need 4 seperate texture files as well?
6. Save/export as mesh and assign it to some unit.
7. Last but not least, I need some kind of atlas and the different textures (normal, gloss, diffuse). I have no clue how to do that yet. Sculptris can create UV-maps (paint mode --> show advanced tools; only savable as jpeg or Png though, not dds). Does this help? Creating textures/atlas would be a good topic for a tutorial.

Thanks also for your answer concerning my problems import vanilla models into sculptris. I'm probably not able to cope with it, but as sculptris can't work with sceletons, modifying complexer models with many parts interacting with different bones is impossible anyway?

[Steph]

Don't forget Milkshape is not perfect and can create some ugly "angles".
Beside, once you have the mesh, ou would also need to do the mapping between the mesh and the textures, etc.

I don't think it's an easy task

[wangrin]

When you will import the .obj model, you will have to reassign all vertex to joints.
It is not impossible, but it is a long and very boring job.

The easiest way in this case is to :

• save your .obj model as ms3d file
• merge the new ms3d file in a vanilla model and use it as a "patron" when reassigning vertex weight

When I deeply modify a model, it's the way I use.
It's boring but not impossible.


When you create a new model, you have to create its UV Map.
The UVMap is the 2D projection of the original 3D model.
Depending of the shape, you can use cylindrical, spherical, box or plane projections.

The UVMap is very important, it will be your patron to create all the model textures.


ETW models use 3 textures :

• diffuse : this texture is the one use to "paint" the model
• gloss : this texture is use to give texture effect such as brightness, smotthness, etc.
• normal_map : this texture is use to create "fine" 3D effects but is also use to create textures effects like the gloss texture.

I'm not sure, but I think that NTW use a 4th one as a colour mask.

If it is possible to create UVmap using Scluptris, do it before exporting the model in MilkShape.
If you want to work on UVMap after reworking the model with MilkShape, it will lost vertex weight information (again...).
I have had this problem with the first model I create (Legione Lombarda). I nearly become crazy with it . and it took me more than 3 month to complete it


LODs are use to optimize game engine.
The lod1 is more detailed than lod2, lod2 is more detailed than lod3, etc.
Depending of distance from camera, the game use lod1, lod2, lod3 or lod4.

It is not absolutely necessary to create those 4 lods (I though that NTW use lod0, 1, 2 and 3 instead of lod1, 2, 3 and 4 for ETW).
You can simply duplicate your lod0 and rename it lod2, lod3 and lod4.
But, contrary to ETW, you must have those 4 lods with NTW.

To create lesser detailed lods for a new model, I usually start with the lod1 (or 0 in NTW) and merge vertex (CTRL+N then CTRL+W) to reduce the number of faces.
But this means you will have to rework the UVMap.


Bethancourt is working on a tutorial about creating a model with MilkShape and UU3D : [Tutorial] Modeling. Milkshape and UU3D. How I use them


Using Sculptris, I think the process should be :

• create 3D model using Sculptris
• create UVmap using Sculptris
• export the model as .obj
• import the model in Milkshape and save it as ms3d
• merge the new model in a ntw/etw one
• assign vertex weight using the ntw/etw model as a guide

I think if you create new model, it is important to work on each vertex groups (body, arms, hat, etc.) one after one.


If you want to create lesser lods, you can simply create lod3 and, if absolutely necessary (to optimize game) lod4. The lod2 can be the same as lod1.
What is important is to avoid very big difference between lods because you will clearly see the transition of models in game.

[Kaunitz]

Thanks once more, also for your very informative PMs.

I had some small personal progress. I managed to get a test-model built in sculptris (a ball) into the game. I need to get the position of the "hat" 100% right. Right now it is connected to the head, but not entirely at the correct place. I guess I'll have to check the position of the respective vanilla models' vertices? But basically, implementing a sculptris-built tricorn shouldn't be a problem! So I'm feeling quite happy and confident!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I still need to figure out how textures work in detail. I got my scultpris-created UV-map into milshape without any problem, but I still need to play around with the color/diffuse/normal/gloss maps. I need to figure out if I have to create the maps for individual unit parts or in the faction specific textures, or both...

Also, the UV-maps of sculptris seem a bit chaotic, so that you can't edit them intuitively without using a 3D modeling programme. I guess that Ultimate Unwrap is the way to go when textures are concerned, as Wangrin has told me.

[Biggus Splenus]

Because it's for Napoleon, the texture only needs to be for this 1 unit part (the hat), and you don't need to worry about creating a texture for each nation. I think thats the answer to this: " I need to figure out if I have to create the maps for individual unit parts or in the faction specific textures, or both..."

And it's great to see progress coming along, BRAVO

PS. I like the Austrians new hats

[Kaunitz]

Hyacinth de la Pegna style tricorn, almost finished. The front tip is left. Characteristically, the backside brim is concave. Pompoms, "cap" and cords are still missing.


So you say that I only need to alter the unitpart-texture (small file containing the UV map of only the hat), and not the faction-textures (bigger file with all the UV-maps of a faction, including, for example, the hats)?

[Kaunitz]

Hurray!

The first prototype of my tricorn is in the game, including the texture. I found it all to be much easier than I had expected. Basically, one can learn to get a model into the game in 4 days and for free (30 days trial version milkshape + free sculptris + free NTW Atlas manager by Desaix + free Gimp). That's really astonishing.

Here is the process for anyone interested (and for my own reference ):

1. Create the model in sculptris
2. Export your model as .obj-file and import it in milkshape
3. Use the milkshape tool "direct X mesh tools" to reduce the amount of vertices without distorting the model too much (the direct X milkshape tool is much better in this respect than sculptris' "reduce brush" or the "reduce selected" button...)
4. Export your model (now with reduced number of vertices) as .obj-file and import it in sculptris
5. Enter sculptris' painting mode (I've chosen the 512x512 resolution for my hat), paint your model and, when finished save the tex(ture)-map (click on "show advanced tools" to show this option)
6. Export the model as .obj-file and import it in milkshape
7. Additionally import an existing vanilla hat together with the standard vanilla skeleton
8. Get your hat into the correct position (as indicated by the vanilla hat and the skeleton), then delete the vanilla hat (all 4 LOD groups of it)
9. Assign all vertices of the new hat to the joint "head" (100%)
10. Duplicate your hat 3 times and rename the 4 groups accordingly (LOD0, LOD1, LOD2, LOD3)
11. You may also assign the texture created in sculptris now and try to get it into a more "managable" state via the window "texture coordinate editor" (was quite impossible for the hat, so I kept the chaotic sculptris UV map...)
12. Export as Napoleon Variant Part Mesh
13. Use the sculptris-generated texmap as your diffuse map (you need to convert it to .dds via gimp/photoshop) and as a base to create your gloss and normal map (sculptris can also create a normal map, btw). The colour mask is best left black anyway.
14. Paste your maps into the respective faction-map files and add their coordinates to the atlas-files (using Desaix' Atlas Manager).

Now here is my first result. I still need to do some finetuning (the head is protruding through the "cap"), but I'm quite satisfied already, even without pompom. Next I will take on the head, and then on the coat. Finally, we will hopefully get a nice 7 Years War Habsburg soldier.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(just a quickly edited and painted vanilla head to check that vanilla stuff can be imported to sculptris)

[wangrin]

Very nice job Kaunitz

About MilkShape, I generally avoid to use the "direct X mesh tools", results are often... astonishing.
I've tried this tool the first time I have to create lod3 and lod4, but reseults were awful.
If the global shape was good, the tool create a very asymmetric verteice and face structure, a real nightmare when you have to create UVMap.

[Biggus Splenus]

Looks nice Kaunitz, but I have 2 things to point out:

1) Hat textures in NTW are 384x384, not 512x512. There is no harm in using 512x512, but using a texture that big for a mesh that small is a little unnecessary.

2) I would suggest not including the moustache in your head mesh at all, because we can have a variety of textures for a single mesh, and they could be different shaped moustaches on each. If that made sense.

[Kaunitz]

@ Wangrin:

In any case, I try to avoid differences between LODs. I just need the reducement tool in order to turn the highly complex sculptris model into something usefull for the game. For this purpose, I think that the direct X mesh tool is okay (so far ).
What I still couldn't figure out is how to produce "comprehensible" UV maps either with milkshape or UU3D. I still stick to the chaotic sculptris UV map.

@Splenyi:

The problem was that sculptis' next resolution-option for the UV map was 256x256. There is no 384x384 option.
Thanks for the tip for the moustaches. I will consider it. But some troops (Hussars, Grenzer) certainly need a "modeled" moustache.

[Biggus Splenus]

I wouldn't think that lod1, lod2 or lod3 are very important when your talking about quality, because you can only see them from a long distance.

[wangrin]

They are important to optimize game fluidity for low end computers.

[wangrin]

Sorry - double post

[Biggus Splenus]

They are important to optimize game fluidity for low end computers.

Ah yes, sorry I forgot about that.

[Diamat]

This is splendid indeed. I have been experimenting with it a little, and I must say that I am rather impressed. There are so many ways for modders to use this in the future. In addition, it is easy to use for those modders with little or no modelling experience.

I am only having one problem. My textures flicker in-game. I have been messing around with sculptris by creating a new experimental plume. However, when I tilt the camera to the side, the textures flicker and look weird. But when I look at the plumes head on, they look fine. I imagine it has something to do with my Atlas X2 and Y2 values. I tried out different variations, but all of them create flickering. Indeed, changing the values makes the flickering even worse.

Here is an example:

Notice how everything looks just fine.

Spoiler for frontal view: 

Stupid flickering in the image below...

Spoiler for side-view; flickering: 

+Rep to anyone able to figure out what might be wrong.

[47th sAMuRAi]

Must be because you've saved the dds diffuse without generating mipmaps? I had this problem when I had a unit with a plume and It would flicker like how you explained. I have a kind of "formula" on saving the diffuse when I use units with plumes now. I have'nt had any problems saving it like this but maybe you can try it I dunno........ This is on "Gimp" btw I only apply this to the diffuse. It's just a formula i've experimented on ,not sure if it is a "correct" way of saving a dds diffuse with generated mip maps but it works for my textured units with plumes.