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Thread: Kishu Ninja?

  1. #1
    Sukauto
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    Default Kishu Ninja?

    I've been looking around for quite a while to figure out whether something was wrong with this particular unit, but the web is deceptively quiet about it except for a lone thread I found on another forum...

    So the Kishu Ninja--the regular ones--have 3 morale.
    I wasn't initially aware of this at first, but in an interesting incident I came to realize that something is wrong with the stats of this unit.

    After attaining victory in my very first domination campaign of Shogun 2 as the Shimazu, unifying all of Japan save for a handful of provinces in the Tohoku region, I continued to play because I wanted to finish the arts tree and see some of the units that I haven't had the chance to see, such as the aforementioned Kishu Ninja unit.
    So I recruited six of them and brought them all the way up to Fukushima, where a lone Stronghold stood, cut off from reinforcements by my armies, and threw them at the castle. Only a garrison of Yari Ashigaru and a handful of retainers were there to face them, and the initial numbers--270 of them against the defending 165--made it seem like the odds were clearly in my favor.
    Avoiding the eyes of the defenders, my ninjas successfully climbed up the walls somehow undetected in a corner, despite their conspicuous black garments... anyway, the defenders soon found my men and they began to close. Confident in my numbers, I tossed a volley of flash grenades at the approaching enemies, which blew up a good third of their men and disoriented them. So I used stealth and then charged, a swarm of black engulfing the feeble defenders. I was expecting to hear my adjutant cry out in that same horrible accent that has been bothering me throughout the game, "My lord! A glorious victory will soon be yours!"
    But something completely unexpected happened. As the defenders counter-charged into my mob of ninjas, I saw all but one of their banners go flashing. Before I even had the time to say, "WHAT THE FRONT LAWN?" my adjutant was crying out, "Our men are running from the battlefield! Shameful display!"
    About fifteen seconds after the melee was joined, the battle was over. All my ninjas, mostly at 90% strength, had fled in the face of a vastly inferior enemies... and a Crushing Defeat.

    It just left me speechless. I checked the stats of one unit that managed to not get wiped out in the battle, and found out they had 3 morale. 3 morale? That's worse than Ashigaru troops. I've had more experiences with the unit over the course of several campaigns since then. Every time I attempt to use the unit, their wobbly morale gives way if the enemy just shoots them a powerful glare, and they go running across the battlefield, usually into the enemy lines, and then die. It's as if the unit is made up of the most cowardly men you could find in all of Japan. I've also had issues with their clan-special variants. They have 12 morale, so they could perform even if the enemies gave them the best hard look they could. They don't break from a volley of arrows or two, and they can actually defeat a handful of Ashigaru in melee after they're shaken and confused from two volleys of bombs. And here's another problem: the special variants of the Kishu Ninja only have 2 ammunition(regular ones have 11 or 12...).

    Summary of the post:
    Does anybody else find Kishu Ninja stats strange? Or is this the way this unit is supposed to be?

  2. #2
    marceror's Avatar Princeps Posterior
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    I didn't use them much when I played the Sengoku Jidai campaign (original S2 campaign), but I certainly don't remember them having such sub par morale. That doesn't sound right to me at all. Kisho Ninja are supposed to be elite in just about every way.

    My Kisho Ninja in FotS are absolute beasts. I once had them take on a full unit of Imperial Infantry. They got in close without being noticed, threw their grenades, and charged in with their swords. The Imperial Infantry barely knew what had hit them before they were shattered and running. And the Kisho Ninja were able to run halfway across the map in pursuit barely tiring at all. In another battle they were surrounded against signficantly greater numbers in a melee, and remained vigilant, focused, and seemed to kill 10 men apeice before losing one of their own. They are a pretty uber unit, though with modern armies I find limited use for them in FotS. I prefer to rely on my line infantry, sharpshooters and artillery followed up with a few well timed cavalry charges.

  3. #3
    IGdood's Avatar Pili Posterior
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    There's been a weird bug with the new patch. Sengoku Jidai ninja got 3 morale and very strange stats.
    Mods that I've made for Shogun 2:
    Bayonets for FoTS: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=538081
    IGdood's unit Packs: www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11277523
    Kisho Ninja Unit Leader Tweak http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=522431

    Mods that I've made for Rome 2:

    IGdood's Mercenary Unit Packs: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Pack-Released!

  4. #4
    CptAustus's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Its a bug. Regular kisho ninjas ended up with FOTS ninjas stats. Tokugawa and Hattori ninjas still have their old stats.

  5. #5
    IGdood's Avatar Pili Posterior
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    FoTS ninjas have better stats.
    Mods that I've made for Shogun 2:
    Bayonets for FoTS: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=538081
    IGdood's unit Packs: www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11277523
    Kisho Ninja Unit Leader Tweak http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=522431

    Mods that I've made for Rome 2:

    IGdood's Mercenary Unit Packs: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Pack-Released!

  6. #6
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    weird bug, try checking their stats in the engine?

  7. #7
    IGdood's Avatar Pili Posterior
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Stats in engine are bugged.
    Mods that I've made for Shogun 2:
    Bayonets for FoTS: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=538081
    IGdood's unit Packs: www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11277523
    Kisho Ninja Unit Leader Tweak http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=522431

    Mods that I've made for Rome 2:

    IGdood's Mercenary Unit Packs: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Pack-Released!

  8. #8
    BubbaLou's Avatar Yari-hei
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Well, thanks alot CA for ninja nerfing ninjas
    BubbaLou's Primer for Gunpowder TW's. Formations and tactics for things that go boom.

  9. #9
    Condottiere 40K's Avatar Tribunus Augusticlavii
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Doesn't quite sound right; having restarted playing the game, I haven't had much opportunity to recruit them, but from what I recall, they are mean fighters, and a nasty surprise, though I felt overpriced.

  10. #10
    scope2007's Avatar Shashu
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Surely this is a bug?

    It cant be intentional?.... can it?

    The encyclopeadia entry has been updated to show that Kisho Ninja do indeed have 3 morale, so someone at CA is having a massive laugh.. If you aint Tokugawa or Hattori, then ninja are useless to you cause they are over priced and are terrified of ashigaru
    -Scope

    Author of:

    Ninja Hero Mod V3.0 (For Hattori, Tokugawa and FOTS Factions) *Released 08/06/2013* - Addition of new FOTS campaign Shinobi Hero unit, rebalancing and new unit randomisation.

  11. #11
    marceror's Avatar Princeps Posterior
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    If it's intentional, then I want to know what they are spiking the tea with over at CA! It simply can't be intentional... and it boggles the mind how a "minor patch" that is meant to fix the blood pack DLC and some multiplayer loading screens results in some bizarre artifact like this... not to mention screwing with the appearance of unit cards.

  12. #12
    CptAustus's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Its not intentional e_e Check regular kisho ninjas and tokugawa/hattori ninjas.

  13. #13
    Sukauto
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    yes, well even the clan variants are fudged up with having just 2 ammo.

    In my personal tweak mod I restored what I think is the original stat for the unit, by using the seemingly intact stats in the clan variants as references.
    And... in the very first defensive battle against 2 full stacks using the ninjas, I found out how powerful this unit is O_O! They practically routed the whole army by themselves on hard battle setting, and I am not even kidding. All it took was one volley of those screen-shaking bombs in the back of enemy melee blob pinned down by the ever-reliable yari wall to cause a mass rout, lol.

    P.S. I noticed I misspelled their name... I thought since ambush is what they do, their were called 'kishu' ninja. Now, after someone pointed that out for me, I heard their in-game acknowledgement going "Kisho ichizoku no shinobi!" And then realized that that was not the case. u_ua

  14. #14
    CptAustus's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evanescent View Post
    yes, well even the clan variants are fudged up with having just 2 ammo.
    But... but... but... they always had two ammo D= thats not patch's fault.

  15. #15
    Sukauto
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    Default Re: Kishu Ninja?

    Huh? But the universal Kisho Ninja has 12 ammo. Why would the special variants carry two? I don't quite understand...

    In the clan description for Tokugawa, it says "Can recruit superior Kisho Ninja." If, by superior, they mean "carry minuscule ammo compared to their common cousins so that you can do even less than what the common Kisho Ninja can do with this super mega awesome variant made just for you!" Then I'd understand. When even the humble horokudama--fire bomb throwers--have 10+ ammo, I'd expect Ninja units' ammo to go with the 12 as is the case with normal Kisho Ninja, not 2.

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