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Thread: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

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    Exarch's Avatar Praefectus Castrorum
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    Default Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    it began as a domestic grassroots revolt against inequalities but became coopted into regional geopolitics:

    How the Arab Spring was sapped dry
    By Ismael Hossein-zadeh

    Speaking Freely is an Asia Times Online feature that allows guest writers to have their say. Please click here if you are interested in contributing.

    Within the first few months of 2011, the United States and its allies lost three loyal "friends": Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, Zine el-Abbidine Ben Ali in Tunisia and Saad Hariri in Lebanon. While Mubarak and Ali were driven out of power by widespread popular uprisings, Hariri was ousted by the parliament.

    Inspired by these liberating developments, pro-democracy rebellions against autocratic rulers (and their Western backers) soon spread to other countries such as Bahrain, Yemen, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

    As these revolutionary developments tended to politically benefit the "axis of resistance" (consisting of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas) in the Middle East, the US-Israeli "axis of aggression" and their client states in the region mounted an all-out counterrevolutionary offensive.

    Caught off-guard by the initial wave of the Arab Spring in Egypt and Tunisia, the US and its allies struck back with a vengeance. They employed a number of simultaneous tactics to sabotage the Arab Spring. These included: (1) instigating fake instances of the Arab Spring in countries that were/are headed by insubordinate regimes such as those ruling Iran, Syria and Libya; (2) co-opting revolutionary movements in countries such as Egypt, Tunisia and Yemen; (3) crushing pro-democracy movements against "friendly" regimes ruling countries such as Bahrain, Jordan and Saudi Arabia "before they get out of hand," as they did in Egypt and Tunisia; and (4) using the age-old divide and rule trick by playing the sectarian trump card of Sunnis vs. Shi'ites, or Iranians vs. Arabs.

    1. Fake springs, post-modern coup d'etats
    Soon after being caught by surprise by the glorious uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, the counterrevolutionary forces headed by the United States embarked on damage control. A major strategy in pursuit of this objective has been to foment civil war and regime change in "unfriendly" places, and then portray them as part of the Arab Spring.

    The scheme works like this: arm and train opposition groups within the "unfriendly" country, instigate violent rebellion with the help of covert mercenary forces under the guise of fighting for democracy; and when government forces attempt to quell the thus-nurtured armed insurrection, accuse them of human rights violations, and begin to embark openly and self-righteously on the path of regime change in the name of "responsibility to protect" the human rights.

    As the "weakest link" in the chain of governments thus slated to be changed, Gaddafi's regime became the first target. It is now altogether common knowledge that contrary to the spontaneous, unarmed and peaceful protest demonstrations in Egypt, Tunisia and Bahrain, the rebellion in Libya was nurtured, armed and orchestrated largely from abroad. Indeed, evidence shows that plans of regime change in Libya were drawn long before the overt onset of the actual civil war. [1]

    It is likewise common knowledge that, like the rebellion in Libya, the insurgency in Syria has been neither spontaneous nor peaceful. From the outset it has been armed, trained and organized by the US and its allies. Similar to the attack on Libya, the Arab League and Turkey have been at the forefront of the onslaught on Syria. Also like the Libyan case, there is evidence that preparations for war on Syria had been actively planned long before the actual start of the armed rebellion, which is branded as a case of the Arab Spring. [2]

    Dr Christof Lehmann, a keen observer of geopolitical developments in the Middle East, has coined the term "post-modern coup d'etats" to describe the recent North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)-Zionist agenda of regime change in the region. The term refers to an elaborate combination of covert operations, overt military interventions, and "soft-power" tactics a la Gene Sharp:
    "A network of think tanks, endowments, funds and foundations, which are behind the overt destabilization of targeted sovereign nations. Their narratives in public policy and for public consumption are deceptive and persuasive. Often they specifically target and co-opt progressive thinkers, media and activists. The product is almost invariably a post-modern coup d' tat. Depending on the chosen hybridization and the resilience of government, social structures and populations perceived need for reform, the product can be more or less overtly violent. The tactics can be so subtle, involving human rights organizations and the United Nations that they are difficult to comprehend. However subtle they are, the message to the targeted government is invariably 'go or be gone'". [3]
    It is no secret that the ultimate goal of the policy of regime change in the Middle East is to replace the Iranian government with a "client regime" similar to most other regime in the region. Whether the policy will succeed in overthrowing the Syrian government and embarking on a military strike against Iran remains to be seen. One thing is clear, however: the ominous consequences of a military adventure against Iran would be incalculable. It is bound to create a regional (and even very likely global) war.

    2. Revolts co-opted
    When the Arab Spring broke out in Egypt, Tunisia and Yemen, the US and its allies initially tried to keep their proxy rulers Hosni Mubarak, Ben Ali and Abdullah Saleh in power as long as possible. Once the massive and persistent uprisings made the continued rule of these loyal autocrats untenable, however, the US and its allies changed tactics: reluctantly letting go of Mubarak, Ali and Saleh while trying to preserve the socioeconomic structures and the military regimes they had fostered during the long periods of their dictatorial rule.

    Thus, while losing three client dictators, the US and its allies have succeeded (so far) in preserving the three respective client states. With the exception of a number of formalistic elections that are designed to co-opt opposition groups (like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt) and give legitimacy to military rulers, not much else has changed in these countries. In Egypt, for example, the NATO/Israel-backed military junta of the Mubarak era, which now rules Egypt in collaboration with Muslim Brotherhood, has become increasingly as repressive toward the reform movement that gave birth to the Arab Spring as it was under Mubarak.

    Economic, military and geopolitical policies of the new regimes in these countries are crafted as much in consultation with the United States and its allies as they were under the three autocratic rulers that were forced to leave the political scene. The new regimes are also collaborating with the US and its allies in bringing about "regime change" in Syria and Iran, just as they helped overthrow the regime of Gaddafi in Libya.

    3. Nipping the buds
    A third tactic to contain the Arab Spring has been the withering repression of peaceful pro-democracy movements in countries headed by US proxy regimes in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and other kingdoms in the Persian Gulf area before those movements grow "out of hand," as they did in Egypt, Tunisia and Yemen. Thus, in collaboration with its Western patrons, Saudi Arabia has over the past year cracked down viciously against peaceful protesters not only within its own borders but also in the neighboring country of Bahrain. Leading the invasion militaries of the Persian Gulf kingdoms into Bahrain last spring, the armed forces of Saudi Arabia continue with the support of Western powers to brutalize peaceful pro-democracy protesters there.

    While the Saudi, Qatari and other Persian Gulf regimes have been playing the vanguard role in the US-Israeli axis of aggression against "unfriendly" regimes, NATO forces headed by the Pentagon have been busy behind the scene to train their "security" forces, to broker weapons sale to their repressive regimes, and to build ever more military basses in their territories.
    "As state security forces across the region cracked down on democratic dissent, the Pentagon also repeatedly dispatched American troops on training missions to allied militaries there. During more than 40 such operations with names like Eager Lion and Friendship Two that sometimes lasted for weeks or months at a time, they taught Middle Eastern security forces the finer points of counterinsurgency, small unit tactics, intelligence gathering, and information operations - skills crucial to defeating popular uprisings.
    ...
    These recurrent joint-training exercises, seldom reported in the media and rarely mentioned outside the military, constitute the core of an elaborate, longstanding system that binds the Pentagon to the militaries of repressive regimes across the Middle East". [4]
    These truly imperialistic policies and practices show, once again, that the claims of the United States and its allies that their self-righteous adventures of "regime change" in the Greater Middle East are designed to defend human rights and foster democracy are simply laughable.

    4. Divide and conquer: Sunni versus Shi'ite
    One of the tactics to crush the peaceful pro-democracy movements in the Arab-Muslim countries ruled by the US client regimes is to portray these movements as "sectarian" Shi'ite insurgencies. This age-old divide-and-rule tactic is most vigorously pursued in Bahrain, where the destruction of the Shi'ite mosques is rightly viewed as part of the regime's cynical policy of "humiliating the Shi'ite" in order "to make them take revenge on Sunnis," thereby hoping to prove that the uprising is a sectarian one.[5]

    Quoting Nabeel Rajab, who describes himself as secular with both Sunni and Shi'ite family relatives, reporter Finian Cunningham writes: "The government is attempting to incite divisive sectarian tensions, to intimidate Sunni people into not supporting the pro-democracy movement because it is being presented as a Shia [Shi'ite] movement."

    Cunningham further writes: "The targeting of the Shia is a tactic by the regime to distort the pro-democracy movement from a nationalist one into a sectarian one. It is also a way of undermining international support for the pro-democracy movement by trying to present it as an internal problem of the state dealing with 'troublesome Shia'. In this way, the Bahraini uprising is being made to appear as something different from the uprisings for democracy that have swept the region" [5].

    In brief, the magnificent Arab Spring that started in Egypt and Tunisia in the early 2011 has been brutally derailed, distorted and contained by an all-out counter-offensive orchestrated by Western powers and their allies in the Greater Middle East, especially Israel, Turkey and the Arab League. How long this containment of democratic and national liberation aspirations of the Arab/Muslim masses will continue, no one can tell. One thing is clear, however: the success of the Arab (or any other) Spring in the less-developed, semi-colonial world is integrally intertwined with the success of the so-called 99% in the more-developed, imperialist world in achieving the goal of defeating the austerity policies of the 1%, reallocating significant portions of the colossal military spending to social spending, and enjoying a standard of living worthy of human dignity.

    In subtle and roundabout ways, imperialist wars of choice and military adventures abroad are reflections, or proxies, of domestic fights over allocation of national resources: only by inventing new (and never ending) enemies and engaging in permanent wars abroad can the powerful beneficiaries of war and militarism fend off the "peace dividends" and enjoy the substantial "war dividends" at home.

    In the fight for peace and economic justice, perhaps the global 99% can take a cue from the global 1%: just as the ruling 1% coordinate their policies of military aggression and economic austerity on an international level, so can (and should) the worldwide 99% coordinate their response to those brutal policies internationally. Only through a coordinated cross-border struggle for peace and economic justice can the workers and other popular masses bring the worldwide production of goods and provision of services to a standstill, and restructure the status quo for a better world - a world in which the products of human labor and the bounties of Nature could benefit all.

    Notes
    1. Michel Chossudovsky, When War Games Go Live. 2. See, for example, Dr Christof Lehmann, The Manufacturing of the War on Syria.
    3. Dr Christof Lehmann, The National Counsel of Syria and US Unconventional Warfare.
    4. Nick Turse, Did the Pentagon Help Strangle the Arab Spring?
    5. Finian Cunningham, Bahraini Rulers Play sectarian card in Bid to Trump Pro-democracy Movement.

    Ismael Hossein-zadeh is Professor Emeritus of Economics, Drake University, Des Moines, Iowa. He is the author of The Political Economy of US Militarism (Palgrave-Macmillan, 2007) and Soviet Non-capitalist Development: The Case of Nasser's Egypt (Praeger Publishers 1989). He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion, forthcoming from AK Press.
    Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ND19Ak01.html

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    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Don't really have the time or motivation to explore the other points, but the first is highly contentious. He actually has the nerve to cite Chossudosky's Global Research as some kind of legitimate source.
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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    In the end, and if we see a lot of bad things happening due to the Arab Spring it was nobody's fault but the revolutionaries themselves. The west acted precautiosly, helped bring down Lybia and not much more.

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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    I note a distinct absence of credible sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    the guy is an american professor and just because you don't like the message is once again, no excuse to shoot the messenger. gee, i'm starting to see a pattern here at TWC. Need i remind the ppl here that we're not 'America's propaganda arm sector 666', but rather just a video game site?

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    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    the guy is an american professor and just because you don't like the message is once again, no excuse to shoot the messenger. gee, i'm starting to see a pattern here at TWC. Need i remind the ppl here that we're not 'America's propaganda arm sector 666', but rather just a video game site?
    Skepticism is paramount, appeals to authority by stating that he is an American professor and therefore automatically credible are still fallacies. If he chooses to cite, he can do a whole lot better than than Global Research.
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    if people here honestly feel he isn't credible than they themselves must desist from Appeals to Authority and address his own points

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    I'm not sure what the point is here Exarch aside from the fact you like fringe conspiracy ideals...

    But let's say your article is right so what? I mean as an American why should I care all that much about Egypt or Saudi Arabia or its individual citizens do they care about me? How many wealthy Saudi's wake up each and think gosh it would be a lot nicer if the US had a European style national payer plan - I am going to start a foundation to achieve that?

    But in any case I don't see the logic here so the Arab Spring was only real if it took down pro-west leaders and strong men? It not like the US jumped right in to support events in Libya and if the US and the west were in fact looking to hurt Syria they have been amazingly reticent to intervene while the regime there slowly eliminated its opponents.

    Honestly lets be real if the US was so cold and in realpolitik mode it would have saved Hosni Mubarak and would have been more out front in Libya and we would now likely be talking about the US lead NATO air attacks on Syria. Does the US government act in what it thinks its own self interest is sure and that means a hard intervention in Syria just as the US government is trying to wind down two wars is unlikely, does that mean the US would prefer that the gulf oil states don't get destabilized and it will turn a blind eye to repression - yep - especially when the US is juggling with Israel possibly going off the reservation and bombing Iran and screwing over the world petroleum market. Sorry to say but if you wanted democracy in SA or Bahrain you should have been agitating back in mid nineties when the US economy was strong and gas was cheap...

    Besides who says democracy is happy pink pony land anyway - its not like any country in the Middle east does not have is share of piss poor map lines drawn by some great power a 50 or 100 years ago. What if the democratic government of Egypt decides to impose the burka and provoke a war with Isreal? Is that in the interest of the US?
    Last edited by conon394; April 23, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    It is likewise common knowledge that, like the rebellion in Libya, the insurgency in Syria has been neither spontaneous nor peaceful. From the outset it has been armed, trained and organized by the US and its allies
    It's insane the author can just claim that as "common knowledge".

    I think it's ridculous as well to suggest that the US is completely OK with the spring being put down in Saudi Arabia.

    Why?

    Because the Arab Spring, whatever the final outcomes, represents a complete rejection of the idealogy of Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda rose from the fact that Bin Laden was able to channel militant political energy aganist what he called "the far enemy", the United States, rather than aganist the authortarian regimes in the Middle East. In his version of events, fighting the US was far more important than trying to bring about change at home, wether peacefully or through an armed struggle.



    "The fact is that every war suffers a kind of progressive degradation with every month that it continues, because such things as individual liberty and a truthful press are not compatible with military efficency."
    -George Orwell, in Homage to Catalonia, 1938.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthippus of Sparta View Post
    represents a complete rejection of the idealogy of Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.
    Sorry but now I just saw bunch of support for Sharia law... Oh wait may be Al-Qaeda is not about Sharia law at all.

    And all this democratic countries would be friends of West is best BS at all; no idea where those liberal hippies got this idea from.
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    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Sorry but now I just saw bunch of support for Sharia law... Oh wait may be Al-Qaeda is not about Sharia law at all.

    And all this democratic countries would be friends of West is best BS at all; no idea where those liberal hippies got this idea from.
    I don't recall Al Qaeda or Hizb ut Tahrir playing a role in these uprisings
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Sorry but now I just saw bunch of support for Sharia law... Oh wait may be Al-Qaeda is not about Sharia law at all
    Perhaps the better way of looking at is the US can and does get along with countries that like living with very repressive civil liberties regimes like say Saudi Arabia. If the Muslim Brotherhood dominates politics in Egypt that's fine by me I don't live there but as long as they are content to live and let live I don't care and as long as they deal with a loosing like grown ups or do not start suppressing elections as soon as they get power etc.. Al-Qaeda does not see things the same way...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    I don't recall Al Qaeda or Hizb ut Tahrir playing a role in these uprisings
    We do know Islamic terrorists on the list of British government played a big role in Libyan Civil War - to a point British government actually sent aid to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Perhaps the better way of looking at is the US can and does get along with countries that like living with very repressive civil liberties regimes like say Saudi Arabia. If the Muslim Brotherhood dominates politics in Egypt that's fine by me I don't live there but as long as they are content to live and let live I don't care and as long as they deal with a loosing like grown ups or do not start suppressing elections as soon as they get power etc.. Al-Qaeda does not see things the same way...
    So you mean if one day Muslim Brotherhood decide to nuke Washington DC under the popular demand of Egyptians it is also fine?
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; April 23, 2012 at 03:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    We do know Islamic terrorists on the list of British government played a big role in Libyan Civil War - to a point British government actually sent aid to them.
    Doesn't change the fact that their goals differ considerably, especially when one considers that Al Qaeda in particular is adverse to any form of elections which Islamist parties (with the exception of Salafists) are at least prepared to support.

    So you mean if one day Muslim Brotherhood decide to nuke Washington DC under the popular demand of Egyptians it is also fine?
    That is an unusual claim
    Last edited by Babur; April 23, 2012 at 03:54 PM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that their goals differ considerably, especially when one considers that Al Qaeda in particular is adverse to any form of elections which Islamist parties are at least prepared to support.
    I am not talking about Al Qaeda but the general Islamic conservative factions; I don't care democratic or not this current Sharia fever in Middle East really worry (and disgust) me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Dug around in another one of his sources, been skimming what the Lehman guy has been writing and I have found that these conspiracy theory screeds are pretty much the norm for his blog. Here is one, on Syria

    By Christof Lehmann – nsnbc. When the worlds most powerful military alliance has been defeated in a battle, what better media strategy to use than scapegoating the victorious enemy, and to position him as tyrant, dictator and, which is very important for spin doctors, as propaganda expert. Syria has won a battle against NATO and the GCC by voting for a new constitution, implementing reforms, and defeating the insurgency in Homs – all while maintaining calm enough to enter into an agreement with the UN and Arab League. Western main Steam Media however, can not allow NATO to be defeated in the minds of Western populations, so media need a sufficient dose of SPIN.
    So now the rebels were supported by NATO? News to the rest of the world.

    The director of the DPRK`s space program, Paek told international media, that the launch facility had been opened to international journalists to dispel concerns by the West and North Korea´s neighbors that the DPRK is testing a long-range ballistic missile. Paek called on international journalists and experts for impartial judgment, which is not surprising, given that fact that the launch of the Gwanmyungsung 3 satellite is being instrumentalized by most NATO countries and NATO allied countries media as a means of positioning the DPRK as villain, and unpredictable rouge state who bluntly threatens it´s neighbors and the world.

    Thus Western media make use of “experts”, in an attempt to scare Western populations into believing that the DPRK “could” use the same rocket to launch nuclear warheads. This and similar propaganda strategies are, not surprisingly, most prevalent in Western countries who have themselves stockpiled sufficient amounts of nuclear war heads and delivery systems, to incinerate the entire globe multiple times. South Korea scares it´s population into fear of war by proclaiming, that it would shoot down the rocket if it strayed over South Korean territory, which the DPRK rightfully would perceive as an act of war.
    It seems the man believes that NATO and the UN work hand in glove through the media to ensure neoimperialism. In other words, he is a crackpot.

    Here is another blogger on the prestigious news source NSBC, it makes for a good laugh. If the article in the OP relies on this for his information no wonder he is so woefully misinformed.
    Last edited by Nevins; April 23, 2012 at 04:07 PM.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    So you mean if one day Muslim Brotherhood decide to nuke Washington DC under the popular demand of Egyptians it is also fine?
    Egypt has a nuclear ability? Perhaps I missed that.

    Have they elaborated such a policy? The US just wrapped up a totally made up war against Iraq and retains the ability to more or less attack and destroy any nation anywhere and aside form a handful of nations rather free from any fear of counter attack - the rest of the world just has to deal. Look I actually like democracy and I am prepared to deal with the fact it might produce governments in other countries that don't like mine, since my country spends more on its military than pretty much the rest of the world I sleep fine at night.

    Provide a coherent reason I should be afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt - more so than the car accident that is far more likely to kill me than the Egyptian military and I will worry.

    But I think you missed my point I don't really care so much what democratic government Egypt elects - that is their problem. If they want to go back to the thirteenth century fine I am sorry for them. Now if they start trying say the US is a problem for not thinking the same way well than yes I am really OK with smacking the IB back to the stone age. Frankly that's my problem with Afghanistan they picked a fight and I am happy the US could make them see that was a bad option, but I don't really care to fix their screwed up country (nor do I care who screwed it up everyone has a sob song) we should have left years ago. Thus my point of Egypt I don't mind if they elect Islamic zealots as long as they play in their own sand box (and you would think the recent laundry list of US wars and flying death drones in what 3,4 or more countries (and a couple more non states) would make most people think twice right now about pissing off the US - and if not well than nothing shy of WW2 mass bombing is going to make them think different).
    Last edited by conon394; April 23, 2012 at 04:33 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #18
    Rolling Thunder's Avatar Jukutatsu shita
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    the guy is an american professor
    Because academics aren't bound by...academic convention in regards to sourcing their claims?


    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    if people here honestly feel he isn't credible than they themselves must desist from Appeals to Authority and address his own points
    Noting an absence of credible sources is not an appeal to authority. Arguing that he's a professor, and therefore by implication correct, however, is such a fallacy.
    Last edited by Rolling Thunder; April 23, 2012 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  19. #19
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevins View Post
    In other words, he is a crackpot.

    That's being kind.
    What this party lacks is the civilizing influence of women.

  20. #20
    Phier's Avatar Living in Gomorrah
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    Default Re: Has The Arab Spring Been Subverted For Geopolitical Gain?

    Ismael Hossein-zadeh is Professor Emeritus
    Well I feel slightly better now.
    Dumbpiphany: The realization that the reason the entire conversation has been difficult to follow is that you're talking to an idiot.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sumskilz again.
    My shameful truth.

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