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Thread: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

  1. #1

    Default Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Surah 4 / Verse 34:
    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. - Source
    Surah 2 / Verse 223:
    Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
    What exactly do Muslims (men and women) think of women' rights? And - of course, as this is a debate forum - what's your opinion on that?

    Oddly there are many Muslims that contradict the above verse(s) of the Quran and actually see the beating women as wrongdoing.

    That said, there seems to be a tendacy in Islam - based on the Quran (see above quotes) - that disfavours women. Although women aren't to be considered as 'merchandise' and the beating isn't allowed in public.:



    In my view the Quran scholar in the above video seems to at least try to downsize the 'surah 4 / verse 34'. But it's still very patronizing and for women, at the least, very troubling.

    Anyone? Or is this too touchy for TWC?



    EDIT - [to be noted: not beating or (domestic) rape is stated or impleid afaics...]:

    Christian view on women - by Himster (original post):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1 Corinthians 11:3 * 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. (Head of every woman is the man)
    1 Corinthians 11:7 - 9* 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35* 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (Woman to be silent in church. A woman is not to speak in church)
    Ephesians 5:22 - 25* 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
    23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;(Wives must submit themselves to their husband, afterall he is the head of the wife)
    Colossians 3:18 * 18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. (Wives submit to their husband -- the Lord expects it)
    1 Timothy 2:9 - 15* 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (Women not to wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly array.
    Women must learn in silence. Women are not to teach and not have
    authority over men. Women must be silent. Adam was created first,
    then Eve. A woman was deceived, but Adam was not deceived)

    Romans 7:2 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. (woman bound to her husband for life)
    Titus 2:3 - 5* 3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Women to obey their own husbands)
    1 Peter 3:1 -3 1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
    3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
    1 Peter 3:5 -7* 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    Genesis 3:16* 16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Women will be ruled by men)
    Leviticus 12:2 * 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
    Leviticus 12:5 5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. (Woman unclean for 7 days if she gives birth to a man child.
    She is unclean for 14 days to 66 days if she gives birth to woman child)

    Esther 1:22 22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that [it] should be published according to the language of every people.
    Job 25:4 * 4 How then can man be justified with God? or , how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman? (Any man born of a woman is unclean)
    Ecclesiastes 7:26 26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. ( Women can be source of evil for men. Men source of evil for
    women? -- doesn't say)

    Deuteronomy 22:5 * 5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. ( Women not to wear pants, nor men to wear dresses)
    1 Corinthians 11:14 * 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
    Last edited by Qasper; June 15, 2012 at 06:22 PM. Reason: added contribution by Himster on 'women in (early) Christianity'

  2. #2
    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Better wait for some muslim TWC poster,s Qasper.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    IS the point your trying to make that Islam is a backward and outdated, nothing more than a Cancer on the planet? because if so, i agree.

  4. #4
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    As a non-religious leader of all muslims on these forums, this is the only part of orthodox Islam i practice with relish.




  5. #5

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Encarmine View Post
    IS the point your trying to make that Islam is a backward and outdated, nothing more than a Cancer on the planet? because if so, i agree.
    No.

    PS: Muslim scholars did, indirectly, heavily contribute to Europe's predominance in science from the Middle Ages onwards. I wonder what 'modern' muslims think of the above mentined surahs and the vid.
    Last edited by Qasper; June 12, 2012 at 09:31 AM.

  6. #6
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Wouldnt it be better to rename the thread "Women fall over in orthodox Islam"?




  7. #7
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i āzam
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Moved to Ethos, Mores et Monastica.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; June 12, 2012 at 09:38 AM.

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Qasper View Post
    Anyone? Or is this too touchy for TWC?
    Maybe you should start with explaining how this is a current political topic?
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #9

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Maybe you should start with explaining how this is a current political topic?
    Already moved.

  10. #10
    panzer 4's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    I remember reading you are not allowed to beat them with anything larger than your thumb, some translations believe a small tap on the wrist is allowed, but as far as Women rights, 3/4 of Muslim converts in Britain are women, that definitely says... something.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-6258015.html
    The US will gladly step up to become the world police when there is oil involved, yet they will resign the second there is a genocide in Africa, a slaughter in an allied nation, or a massacre committed by dictators, all who's nations have nothing to offer, but the gratitude of the people to the international community for reaching out.

  11. #11
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Christianity has similar mandates, but most christians ignore them.
    Also women are more masochistic than men, this can be seen in pornography and religion, this is far from an excuse to treat women sadistically.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  12. #12

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by panzer 4 View Post
    I remember reading you are not allowed to beat them with anything larger than your thumb, some translations believe a small tap on the wrist is allowed, but as far as Women rights, 3/4 of Muslim converts in Britain are women, that definitely says... something.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-6258015.html
    It says they married Muslim men.

    But its also a known fact that women are far more susceptible to religious mumbojumbo.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by panzer 4 View Post
    I remember reading you are not allowed to beat them with anything larger than your thumb (...)
    Any source for that in the Quran? After all it says:

    Surah 4 / Verse 34:Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. - Source


    (...) but as far as Women rights, 3/4 of Muslim converts in Britain are women, that definitely says... something.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-6258015.html
    What does it say? Perhaps they didn't read the Quran carefully enough or they simply trust their husbands to not beat them, I guess. Whatsoever, it surely doesn't change the Quran. 'Surah 4 Verse 34' is there and will not change.

    But anyhow, do you believe that...
    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;
    ??

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Christianity has similar mandates, but most christians ignore them.
    I'm not a Christian so I don't care if Christianity has similar verses, but I'd like to see a quote for that claim...

    Also women are more masochistic than men, this can be seen in pornography and religion, this is far from an excuse to treat women sadistically.
    Women are perhaps mostly not the active part during intercourse (though otherwise is a good deal, imho), but to summerize that women are more masochistic than men and therefore want to be reprimanded in everyday, social life - as you seem to suggest - is total crap.
    I'm happy to see my sister, my mother, my nieces and any women to be not-unequal to men in social, political, domestic and so on affairs. And I wouldn't want a girl-friend that is obedient to me. How boring...
    Last edited by Qasper; June 12, 2012 at 10:47 AM.

  14. #14
    LSJ's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    I have read through translations of the Quran. There are many misconceptions about Islam that are not from the book at all, but there are a lot of things in the Quran that are just as bad. Holy books from the ancient world in general are terrible guides to living in the modern world. The bible tells us to kill witches, homosexuals, disobedient children, adulterers, heathens, blasphemers, and those who work on Sunday.

    Women have it bad in societies where people make stuff up that isn't in the Quran (ie. Afghanistan), but it wouldn't be much better in a society where everyone actually reads the Quran either.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    A translation that I find more accurate:
    4:34 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
    A lot of things in Islam are shadowed by the local culture. This is one of the best examples of that.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #16
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Everything is culture.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; June 12, 2012 at 08:19 PM.
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  17. #17
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Qasper View Post
    I'm not a Christian so I don't care if Christianity has similar verses, but I'd like to see a quote for that claim...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1 Corinthians 11:3 * 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. (Head of every woman is the man)
    1 Corinthians 11:7 - 9* 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35* 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (Woman to be silent in church. A woman is not to speak in church)
    Ephesians 5:22 - 25* 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
    23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;(Wives must submit themselves to their husband, afterall he is the head of the wife)
    Colossians 3:18 * 18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. (Wives submit to their husband -- the Lord expects it)
    1 Timothy 2:9 - 15* 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (Women not to wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly array.
    Women must learn in silence. Women are not to teach and not have
    authority over men. Women must be silent. Adam was created first,
    then Eve. A woman was deceived, but Adam was not deceived)

    Romans 7:2 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. (woman bound to her husband for life)
    Titus 2:3 - 5* 3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. (Women to obey their own husbands)
    1 Peter 3:1 -3 1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
    3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
    1 Peter 3:5 -7* 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    Genesis 3:16* 16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Women will be ruled by men)
    Leviticus 12:2 * 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
    Leviticus 12:5 5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. (Woman unclean for 7 days if she gives birth to a man child.
    She is unclean for 14 days to 66 days if she gives birth to woman child)

    Esther 1:22 22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that [it] should be published according to the language of every people.
    Job 25:4 * 4 How then can man be justified with God? or , how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman? (Any man born of a woman is unclean)
    Ecclesiastes 7:26 26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. ( Women can be source of evil for men. Men source of evil for
    women? -- doesn't say)

    Deuteronomy 22:5 * 5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. ( Women not to wear pants, nor men to wear dresses)
    1 Corinthians 11:14 * 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

    Women are perhaps mostly not the active part during intercourse (though otherwise is a good deal, imho), but to summerize that women are more masochistic than men and therefore want to be reprimanded in everyday, social life - as you seem to suggest - is total crap.
    I'm happy to see my sister, my mother, my nieces and any women to be not-unequal to men in social, political, domestic and so on affairs. And I wouldn't want a girl-friend that is obedient to me. How boring...
    I didn't say all women are masochistic, but women do have a higher propensity towards submission, whether this is culturally imbued or their natural inclination is unclear. Specifically I was respondng to the fact that it is mostly women who are submissing to Islam in the UK and other developed countries
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  18. #18

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    A translation that I find more accurate:


    A lot of things in Islam are shadowed by the local culture. This is one of the best examples of that.
    Being that link calls it a reformist translation, that doesn't sound like orthodox Islam.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    Ok, "orthodox" islam, whatever that means.

    45 It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim).

    According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn 'Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of 'Abd Allah ibn 'Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum).

    When the above Qur'an-verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah.

    On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.
    Last edited by squirel; June 12, 2012 at 06:16 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Women's stand in orthodox Islam

    So how does your orthodox islam sound like?

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