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Thread: If the next Total War is in Asia

  1. #21

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    The most diverse Asian Total War would center on Han Dynasty, Mauryans, Seleucids, or Parthia. If done correctly, it would be just as diverse as Rome: Total War, if not more so.

    For example, the Han Dynasty would get to fight/diplomatic relations/trade with:
    Different civilizations such as the many branches of the Xiongnu nomadic super confederation, Eurasian semi-nomadic kingdoms in the Ordos and Tarim deserts, Xianbei nomadic kingdoms, tribal kingdoms in Manchuria and Korea, Scythians, Indo-Scythian kingdom of Saka, Iranian-nomads such as the Sauromatae/Saramatians, silk road city-kingdoms, SE Asian tribes and kingdoms such as Yue, Minyue, Nanyue (jungle and elephant armies), Greco-Persian kingdoms such as Bactria, Greco-Persian-nomads such as Yuezhi, powerful Greco-Indian empires such as the Kushan empire, the mighty Indian Mauryan empire (with thousands of war elephants), and depending on the time period either the Seleucids in the west or the Parthians.

  2. #22

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsudaira Takechiyo View Post
    Three kingdoms will fit for expansion DLC. The main game will be the 7 warring states. A much bigger and longer conflict though I wish for shorter period. This way we will have at least 4 seasons per turn as in Shogun rather than summer and winter only. Much longer time conflict will probably bring back 2 years per turn like in Med2. Awful !!
    So what you want is the same time period as Rome TW, but just in China and with only 7 factions instead of the 20 in Rome. And without any huge naval battles or variation in fractions. I don't know sounds awful boring to me in any length of time.
    Oderint dum metuant





  3. #23

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaking Viper View Post
    So what you want is the same time period as Rome TW, but just in China and with only 7 factions instead of the 20 in Rome. And without any huge naval battles or variation in fractions. I don't know sounds awful boring to me in any length of time.
    That's why you don't limit it to just 1 cultural faction...you include other factions and nations as well.
    Rome: Total War would've been boring if the game was limited to only fighting other Roman factions.

    And the Han and other eras did see some pretty large naval battles on large rivers, lakes, and coasts. (with Shogun-ish type ships)

  4. #24

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    That's why you don't limit it to just 1 cultural faction...you include other factions and nations as well.
    Rome: Total War would've been boring if the game was limited to only fighting other Roman factions.

    And the Han and other eras did see some pretty large naval battles on large rivers, lakes, and coasts. (with Shogun-ish type ships)
    First no, putting other nations (that historically fought for dominion of China) would bring Mongolia, Tibet and Korea into the factions, and hence a instant ban in China. Heck mentioning in a game that some of the dynasties were Mongolian, will bring a instant ban. So other factions is a no go.

    Bringing Han into the mix is IMHO a bad idea, nothing total war like happened during that time period. A few border conflicts and then the rebellions that ended it all. It was not without reason that the Han dynasty is known as the age of economic prosperity, Having Han would make it into a trade sim instead of a total war game.
    Oderint dum metuant





  5. #25

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaking Viper View Post
    First no, putting other nations (that historically fought for dominion of China) would bring Mongolia, Tibet and Korea into the factions, and hence a instant ban in China. Heck mentioning in a game that some of the dynasties were Mongolian, will bring a instant ban. So other factions is a no go.
    What are you talking about? Why would adding other nations bring a ban in China? How would Mongolian Dynasties bring an instant ban? The Chinese have TV shows that take place in the Manchurian-Qing Dynasty all the time. They have movies that depict the Song and Jin being destroyed by the Mongols. And Tibet didn't even exist as we know it until the Middle Ages...which is out of the timeframe of the Han.

    The Chinese government may ban stuff from time to time, but they aren't knee jerk reactionists that ban things that accurately portray history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaking Viper View Post
    Bringing Han into the mix is IMHO a bad idea, nothing total war like happened during that time period. A few border conflicts and then the rebellions that ended it all. It was not without reason that the Han dynasty is known as the age of economic prosperity, Having Han would make it into a trade sim instead of a total war game.
    That is where you're incorrect. Saying the Han had no Total War because they had economic prosperity is like saying the Romans never had Total War either because they had the Pax Romana. The Romans had their own age of economic prosperity...before that came conquest. Same goes for Han. The Han actually conquered quite a lot of kingdoms and fought powerful enemies too before they reached their peak.

    Han in 200 BCE during their founding and Han in 100 CE after their conquests:



    Rome Total War basically merged Roman time frames together since the use of the lorica segmentata was basically during the era of mostly peace (giant trading sim of the 1st-2nd century). Historically, the Romans fought very few battles with the declining Successor States - whereas RTW has it so you could fight and conquer them when they weren't in decline. The RTW game also takes many liberties with many other factions and introduces anachronistic, unhistorical, or fantasy elements. I don't see why a Han Total War game can't have you fighting the Seleucids or Parthia. Historically the Han did send troops into Parthia and they did fight or allied with Greco-Indian or Greco-Persian kingdoms.

    Like I said before, RTW took A LOT of liberties with historical accuracy. I see no reason why the Han can't fight many powerful contemporaries of their time. IIRC, historically, a Han army that marched into Parthia came within less than a day's march of a Roman garrison during the early 2nd century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    The Han Dynasty would get to fight/diplomatic relations/trade with:
    Different civilizations such as the many branches of the Xiongnu nomadic super confederation, Eurasian semi-nomadic kingdoms in the Ordos and Tarim deserts, Xianbei nomadic kingdoms, tribal kingdoms in Manchuria and Korea, Scythians, Indo-Scythian kingdom of Saka, Iranian-nomads such as the Sauromatae/Saramatians, silk road city-kingdoms, SE Asian tribes and kingdoms such as Yue, Minyue, Nanyue (jungle and elephant armies), Greco-Persian kingdoms such as Bactria, Greco-Persian-nomads such as Yuezhi, powerful Greco-Indian empires such as the Kushan empire, the mighty Indian Mauryan empire (with thousands of war elephants), and depending on the time period either the Seleucids in the west or the Parthians.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; June 15, 2012 at 04:29 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Many people underestimate how interesting Chinese and East Asian history really is. I'm all for a TW game set in this area.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    As am I

  8. #28
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaking Viper View Post
    So what you want is the same time period as Rome TW, but just in China and with only 7 factions instead of the 20 in Rome. And without any huge naval battles or variation in fractions. I don't know sounds awful boring to me in any length of time.
    7 main ones out of hundreds ? You think an area as big as western Europe all have same cultures ? Just because nowadays the people living there are gerenally known as Chinese does not mean that they are the same. Well they'll be a lot of river battles. Don't worry.

    If you don't like it then don't buy.


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  9. #29

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsudaira Takechiyo View Post
    7 main ones out of hundreds ? You think an area as big as western Europe all have same cultures ? Just because nowadays the people living there are gerenally known as Chinese does not mean that they are the same. Well they'll be a lot of river battles. Don't worry.

    If you don't like it then don't buy.
    In the period of the 7 warring states, there was only 7 factions worth mentioned (hence the name) yes there was other cultures, however they would at maximum count as neutral regions.
    Since the period you are talking about is what led up to the Han dynasty, no other factions was involved in that battle.

    And thank you for your blessing, I now feel much better!
    Oderint dum metuant





  10. #30

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsudaira Takechiyo View Post
    7 main ones out of hundreds ? You think an area as big as western Europe all have same cultures ? Just because nowadays the people living there are gerenally known as Chinese does not mean that they are the same. Well they'll be a lot of river battles. Don't worry.

    If you don't like it then don't buy.
    You speak as though it's already been confirmed - which it hasn't.

    If the next game is set in China, I might well give it a miss. China does even less for me than Shogun 2 did (at least there was the 'Samurai' connection with that game). The idea of squabbling over a map of China leaves me cold - and it's another civil war like Shogun 2.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaking Viper View Post
    In the period of the 7 warring states, there was only 7 factions worth mentioned (hence the name) yes there was other cultures, however they would at maximum count as neutral regions.
    Since the period you are talking about is what led up to the Han dynasty, no other factions was involved in that battle.
    And thank you for your blessing, I now feel much better!
    The Han period would be more diverse in terms of a possible game.

    However, the Warring States didn't only involve battles between the core states. The Qin and North/Western states fought some branches of the Xiongnu, the Chu kingdom in the south fought Yue-tribesmen. And I think the state in the northeast fought nomadic tribes and/or proto-Koreans.

    Furthermore, you don't have to follow history to the letter, as shown by RTW and other games. There's no reason why you can't have some random state conquering the Qin and then march into Bactria.

    Finally, they don't all have the same culture. They share similar elements, but they were never a single state (even during the Zhou era). Add in assimilation with natives, hundreds of years of disputes/rivalries/war, etc and you have different states with different writing styles, different currencies (ie. knife money, coins, etc), different industries, different artwork (evidence by widely different styles in bronze casting), different armor/weapons/equipment, different philosophies (Chu was Daoist with a lil Confucianism, Qin was legalist, others had Shamnistic, etc), etc

    For example:
    "...inhabitants of Japan claimed ancestry from Wu Taibo, a king of the Wu state (located in modern Jiangsu and Zhejiang) during the Warring States era. They recorded examples of Wu traditions including ritual teeth-pulling, tattooing and carrying babies on backs. Other records at the time show that Japan already had the same customs recognized today. These include clapping during prayers, eating from wooden trays and eating raw fish (also a traditional custom of Jiangsu and Zhejiang before pollution made this impractical). Kofun era traditions appear in the records as the ancient Japanese built earthen mound tombs." -wiki
    Last edited by Intranetusa; June 20, 2012 at 01:06 PM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    It's still a civil war - I don't really want another one of those just yet.
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  13. #33

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfCrusader76 View Post
    It's still a civil war - I don't really want another one of those just yet.
    That's why an Asian Total War game in eastern Eurasia should be during the end of the Warring States era and take place during the Qin and especially the Han era...when they were conquering and trading with a bunch of different civilizations and it wasn't just civil war.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; June 20, 2012 at 07:51 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    Do you know that Asia means not only two Chinese Civil Wars? There was and is more than just Warring States and Three Kingdoms ...
    This would be the same as saying Europe would be boring because only an English Civil War in the 17th century and various conflicts between Anglo-Saxon Dynasties in the 6th/7th century occured ...

    Any TW game set in Asia could include many different nations with unique fighting styles. Just some examples I can think of at the moment:
    You have the Khmer, Koreans, Persians, Turks, Vietnamese, plus various Malay/Indonesian naval empires, Horse-Archers like the Mongols/Xiongnu/Huns plus Burmese and Thai Dynasties using Elephants, various Indian cultures either Buddhists/Hindus/Muslims fighting against each other or Invaders from outside. Some Indian dynasties created even colonial empires by conquering parts of South-East Asia during the Middle Ages.
    Furthermore you would have all the Indo-Greek, Indo-Parthian, Indo-Saka and Kuschan-Empires originating from Afghanistan and other parts of Central Asia penetrating deep into the Indian peninsular. Then there are the large Cities and Emirates in Central Asia (Buchara, Samarkand, etc.), when set in the 17th/18th century an Oman Empire fighting back the Portuguese in East Africa. And also in the later timeframes from the 16th century onwards all the european colonial powers as outside intruders like the Mongols in M2:TW and much more.

    edit:
    and then there would be spectacular and impressive battlefields. From the dryest deserts of Arabia and Central Asia to deep and nearly impenetrable jungles, the Highlands of Tibet or Mongolia, large mountain ranges and deep and dark valleys plus Mangroves on some tropical coasts hindering you to create a solid and stable battle line.
    You have areas with tropical temperature the whole year to cold Siberia/Mongolia with 10 months of winter. Also heavy rain (Monsoons), sand storms, dense fogs and thunderstorms will feature you breathtaking effects and low visibleness during battles where you or the enemy can flank the other battleline and appear unexpected in your back.

    All those Asian cultures are similar to one another. You can find a much more variety of culture and unit differentiation in Europe. Plus European themed games always sell more than Asian themed games.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfCrusader76 View Post
    It's still a civil war - I don't really want another one of those just yet.
    What's so civil about war anyway ? In any case it's not civil wars. It's not a conflict between different factions within a country which from what my understanding of what civil war means. The Sengoku Jidai was definitely civil war but the Chinese warring states was not despite it's name because there was not yet a country known as China yet prior to that.


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  16. #36

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Metz View Post
    All those Asian cultures are similar to one another. You can find a much more variety of culture and unit differentiation in Europe. Plus European themed games always sell more than Asian themed games.
    If you said Chinese states were all similar to each other, you would've deserved this:



    Han China was roughly the size of Rome, and the people they conquered varied as much as the Britons to the North Africans. Even Han China alone had a multitude of different ethnic groups who spoke different languages and had different writing systems. And their demographics ranged from Eurasian and Caucasians in their north-western and western provinces, to East Asians at their core, to Austro-Asiatics in their south/south eastern provinces.

    But Europeans are all different? Ah yes, Zeus is so different from Jupiter. I'm sure Athena has nothing to do with Minerva. Pluto and Hades are nothing alike. And I'll completely ignore the fact that the Gauls, Britons, Galatians, etc were all Celts. I'll ignore the fact that the Romans got half their military tech and tactics from other Europeans. China is roughly the size of Europe...China today seems less diverse when compared to the European continent because they didn't fracture like the Roman Empire...but back in the ancient era, their people were very diverse.


    However, you decided to say that even the Persians, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians, Turks, etc are all similar?

    Congratulations, you win the award for the most fail statement I've read in a very long time. Even if you were talking about China by itself, you would still be wrong. But the fact you're saying completely different nations with totally different cultures, languages, writing, lifestyle, etc and separated by thousands of miles and have never even had contact with each other are "too similar" - then you earn the double facepalm.

    Last edited by Intranetusa; June 21, 2012 at 01:09 PM.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    A lot of stupidity in this thread.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Metz View Post
    All those Asian cultures are similar to one another. You can find a much more variety of culture and unit differentiation in Europe. Plus European themed games always sell more than Asian themed games.
    sounds like someone is saying all chinese are asians so all asians must be chinese



    i would like a different total war thats not a remake of a previous one like them making rome 2 which would bore the hell out of me......... yay 3 roman factions since it likely wont be moddable we wont be able to play as any other interesting factions likely, and then there will be faction DLC thats a gauranteed thing right there , i imagine them selling carthage as dlc and such

  19. #39
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    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    In the period of the 7 warring states, there was only 7 factions worth mentioned (hence the name) yes there was other cultures, however they would at maximum count as neutral regions.
    Since the period you are talking about is what led up to the Han dynasty, no other factions was involved in that battle.
    There were actually 9-10 Chinese states.

    As well as the Koreans who were in contact with the Chinese, the Xiongnu who basically were ancient Mongols, the Proto-Vietnamese/Sino-Vietnamese cultures who were documented as having some of the best Heavy Cavalry in Asia due to their advanced Iron Smelting techniques, and if you go far enough West, the Indians and maybe even Persians.
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  20. #40

    Default Re: If the next Total War is in Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chernov View Post
    There were actually 9-10 Chinese states.

    As well as the Koreans who were in contact with the Chinese, the Xiongnu who basically were ancient Mongols, the Proto-Vietnamese/Sino-Vietnamese cultures who were documented as having some of the best Heavy Cavalry in Asia due to their advanced Iron Smelting techniques, and if you go far enough West, the Indians and maybe even Persians.
    I don't believe the Sino-Vietnamese ever had heavy cavalry. They had elephants which were used for war, but the tropical jungle climates and their lack of horse grazing land meant they had little to no cavalry, let alone heavy cavalry.

    For non Sinitic kingdoms, the northern steppe kingdoms did have heavy cavalry in the ancient era. And the western provinces of the Han empire was basically bordering/very close to Kushan, Bactria, Parthia, etc...who all had their own heavy cavalry.

    The later proto Tibetans and Korean peninsula kingdoms developed heavy cavalry in the early middle ages.

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