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Thread: Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

  1. #1
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

    Viking Invasion II




    Map is being decided on


    Factions List:
    Alba
    Connacht
    Danes
    Dumnonia
    Dyfedd
    Estonians*
    Finns*
    Ingrians*
    Laigin
    Mercia
    Mumu
    Norse
    Northumbria
    Pictland
    Powys
    Slavs
    Strathclyde
    Swedes*
    Wessex
    Normans (Emerging)

    *Same units (few edits to name of unit)

    Wikipedia any of those

    Imporovements:
    -Ships that can go into deep waters for EVERY faction
    -New land (Iceland & Greenland)
    -more factions (Vikings plundered northern Europe too)
    -New Factions
    -Specific Elite unit for each Faction
    -Jomsvikings as recruitable mercinaries for the Norse

    My team:
    tnick777: The "glue" and the "flame" to get this started
    Ranika: Lead Historian
    Eltrevo: Historian
    Chormaqan: Mapper and back-up skinner
    Gaius Baltar: Unspecified
    Last edited by tnick777; June 23, 2006 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #2
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    We can use all the people we can get!

    http://www.jomsborg.pl/foto/24022003/32.jpg
    Last edited by tnick777; June 21, 2006 at 05:36 PM.

  3. #3
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Take Greenland and NE Canada off of there. The map would be way too big.

  4. #4
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    You could awlays do what M2TW is doing. Have the new world as a map expansion. Anyways, this project certainly has its merits. I hope it takes off.

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
    MY TWC HISTORY

  5. #5
    Hansa's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Most interesting, but I would probably have Swedish factions from start, Sweden didn't emerge until after the viking age. And depending on starting date, you wil probably want to divide Norway into several factions in order to make it correct. About the Russians, isn't Russian derived from ''Rus'' a slavic word for viking? Are you making viking influenced Russians or pre Viking Ruskies? I would also suggest several Baltic and Russian factions, and if you are really planning to implement all the land plundered by the vikings, you also need themedditeranian world, not suggesting this though, although with the map you are using, the Franks, and Skrelings (latter will be extremely exotic), should probably be added (could also add a saami Faction, although I have no idea how this should be done, just fun to conquer Northern Europe with a group of reindeer nomads). Great Idea for a mod though, and the best of luck.
    GEIR HASUND!

    By the way, though my avatar might indicate so, I am not a citizen of Germany, though my ancestry have a branch in this great nation.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    If needed, I can offer information on Viking culture and weapons for the mod. I support this mod, as I think that Viking Invasion had a lot of potential, and with MTW2, it can realize it.

  7. #7
    Gaius Baltar's Avatar Old gods die hard
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Exellent idea. The Viking period to me is one of the most interesting in European history. The add-on to the original MTW offering was great, but to see a mod with the WTW2 engine would be awesome. This would certainly be a worthwhile project.

    ​​
    Pillaging and Plundering since 2006

    The House of Baltar

    Neither is this the dawn from the east, nor is a dragon flying above, nor are the gables of this hall aflame. Nay, mortal enemies approach in ready armour. Ravens are calling, wolves are howling, spear clashes and shield answers



  8. #8
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    I got a great PM from Ranika (If they wish for me to remove this please tell me) but this is to spark more interest and to correct a few of my mistakes

    "Just some advice; I've done a lot of work on the history of the Norse invasions of Scotland and Ireland. Foremost would be, there are no Scots at the time. At the beginning of the invasions, there was 'Dal Riada', a chiefdom of Gaels settled by a clan from Ireland about 200 years earlier (under Reuda mac Erc). The big power in what is now Scotland was the Picts, who ruled most of the highlands and a portion of the lowlands (Moray to Fife) as a kingdom of Pictland or Pictavia. The Dal Riadans eventually conquered the southern portion, and named it Alba (the Gaelic word for Britain), under Cinaed mac Alpin, some time after the invasions began. Alba then 'inherited' the northern half when Kenneth (Cinaed) assassinated all of the rival inheritors of the throne of the Picts (the king of the Picts at the time was Kenneth's cousin; Gaels don't have strict blood succession, but Picts did, so Kenneth used that to 'conquer' the rest of Pictland).

    Incidentally, Ireland was in a number of parts; there were the indepedent principalities that made up Ulster and Meath, the kingdom of Munster, the kingdom of Connacht, and the kingdom of Leinster. Munster eventually took control of Ireland under the king Brian mac Cennetig (Brian Boroime/Boru, meaning 'Cattle Counter', because he was so rich). The kingdom of Leinster regularly allied with the Norse invaders, who set up the kingdom of Dubb Linn at Atha Cliath, on the town that had originally been there, building a fort on top of it.

    If you want to do the invasions well, and have reasonable emerging factions, it might do better to focus on the British Isles, Scandinavia, and only the northernmost portion of continental Europe. Otherwise you miss a lot of possible emerging factions, like Danish York, the Earldom of the Western Isles/Dubb Linn, the Normans, and have to cut down the amount of factions that could populate the area initially, making it more colorful.

    Even so, maintaining your original plan, the idea for individual 'elite' units for factions might be tricky; the 'Scots' and Irish weren't remotely different at the time. They used the same military structure, spoke the same language, etc. The Gaelic Dal Riadans were just Irishmen (incidentally, the highland Scots were, for centuries, pretty much identical to the Irish; the lowlanders were never Gaelic, and were instead Britons and Saxons, then Normans). I'd recommend, instead, perhaps having nicely fleshed out 'regional' flare; units confined to a few provinces. Like the Norse in Ireland and Scotland would be able to raise armies of Gall-Gaedhil (Norse-Gaels; dressed like Irishmen, but with Nordic weapons and armor) soldiers, if they built some structure there; if captured by the Irish or Scots later, that same structure would still produce Gall-Gaedhil (which would be a bit of a unique dynamic; it could be an upgraded smith perhaps, since the Norse, by and large, just introduced a lot of mass-production), in addition to native troops. The dress of Gaels, on a related note, did not involve kilts (which were a late medieval invention, and weren't even that common until the the mid-to-late Renaissance in Scotland). They wore, instead, tight trousers and a thigh length shirt if low class, and the mid and upper class wore knee-length shirts, with plaid or checkered or striped cloaks.. The highest sometimes wore full-length decorated robes.

    Sorry I'm rambling so much, I'd just love to see a good remake of VI, mostly because I hated the way the Gaels were done in the original. I could write up realistic, historical unit lists in little time, if you're interested, just to help you get the ball rolling."


    So Basically I need skinners and basically anybody that could help this mod get going!
    I was thinking that this could go through the entire Viking period, all the way up to the fade of the Norse productivity. And I still would like to include the small tribes like the Finns, etc. as a "possibility" for a rise to power, but basically having them as nomadic peoples.


    I have requested a revised list of factions


    AND PLEASE! WE CAN TAKE ALL THE PEOPLE WE CAN GET!!! My roll will be done once I get a team together, because I have no skills what so ever. I appologize, this idea has been burning in me for a looong time

    Anybody can contact me at:

    tnick777@hotmail.com

    Thanks everybody!
    Last edited by tnick777; June 21, 2006 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Im in. Send me a PM.

  10. #10
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Wow, Ranika's post has really made me inspired for a Viking Invasion 2, but I can't see that happenign with any map other than one like the original VI.

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
    MY TWC HISTORY

  11. #11

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    The tricky thing is that the invasions of the vikings were so widespread, that really covering the area that they went to would mean creating a large map, but that would need to skimp on details. I would suggest Scandinavia, maybe Finland as well, Denmark, the northernmost extremities of Europe at the most, Britain, and Ireland. For safeties sake, one should assume 20 factions, a la Rome, until it is definitely shown that there will be more available. I'd go for a start date around 750 AD with that map; lots of interesting factions available, and would cover near the beginning of the invasions. As such, there could be (alphabetically);

    Britain:
    1. Alba/Dal Riada/Scotland (Alba was the Gaelic name, Dal Riada the tribal name, Scotland was a name applied by the Saxons, and then the English name)
    2. Dumnonia (A large Brythonic kingdom that controlled the areas aroun modern Devon/Cornwall)
    3. Dyfedd (A Welsh kingdom)
    4. Mercia (part of the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy)
    5. Northumbria (part of the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy)
    6. Pictland/Pictavia (Ruled most of what is now Scotland)
    7. Powys (A Welsh kingdom)
    8. Strathclyde (A Brythonic kingdom that eventually merged with Alba)
    9. Wessex (part of the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy)

    Ireland: (a small northeastern sliver of Ulster would belong to Alba)
    10. Connacht
    11. Laigin (Leinster)
    12. Mumu/Eoghanachta (Munster)
    13.? Mide, or Meath; relatively small but it was a unified kingdom
    14.? Ulster was not united, but instead several indepedent principalities; if Ulster is desired, I recommend selecting one of the principalities, and have the rest of Ulster as rebels; Uladd, Tir Connaill, or Airgallia. There was a legal overlord, but if that were to be used, I'd at least recommend that the provinces of Ulster be extremely prone to rebellion

    Scandinavia I know too little about; there would be the Danes, obviously, and Norwegian and presumably Swedish kingdoms could be used. The set up for Ireland and Britain above would leave room, even with only twenty factions, for a hopefully sufficient detail of the major kingdoms, and, if possible, room for the emergence of the Normans.
    "You will find something more in woods than in books. Trees and stones will teach you that which you can never learn from masters." - St. Bernard

    "The purpose of all wars, is peace." - St. Augustine

    "If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend." - St. Augustine

  12. #12
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Scandinavia at this time was predominately all Nordic tribes coming together as one to pillage north-northwestern Europe. There were the Ingrians (south east Scandinavia) which will be protrayed as a nomadic tribe that can lay grounds in a city, the Finns, (south east Scandinavia, just a little north of Ingria) that will also be nomadic, the Swedes (central Scandinavia) also nomadic, and far east (NW Russia) will be the Slavs, and to the direct south of modern day Finland (accross the sea of Finland) the Estonians will have mark to a land, and the Danes will be in constant battle with the Norse, after Eric the Red.

    We really need to revise our map to make it a good size to have enough settlements and be large enough to incorporate G.B., Ireland, Northern Europe (Northwest France and Northern Germany), the Baltics, Scandinavia, Iceland, Greenland and last but not least North Western Russia...

    So the factions supplement to the Isles factions should be

    Ingrians
    Swedes
    Finns
    Estonians
    Slavs
    Norse
    Danes
    (who ever occupied modern day north Germany and NW France)

    Ranika: we need to make a final list, we don't want 30 some odd factions, we should scale it down, so the modders can do a better job.

    And to the other Historians start collecting pictures for the units!

    Merged double post. Please use the edit button next time. - Trajan

    Here's my 3 Ideas for a map





    Last edited by Trajan; June 22, 2006 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Merged non-duplicate double post.

  13. #13
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    I really dont think there is much justifications for going all the way to finland. Anything past sweden is really just uneeded. I would go with the first map but tilt it a little bit. That way you include normandy, britany and leave out the areas of poland etc.

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
    MY TWC HISTORY

  14. #14

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    Alright, with those factions, I think the list could look like this (alphabetical order), if start date is 750;

    Alba
    Connacht
    Danes
    Dumnonia
    Dyfedd
    Estonians
    Finns
    Ingrians
    Laigin
    Mercia
    Mumu
    Norse
    Northumbria
    Pictland
    Powys
    Slavs
    Strathclyde
    Swedes
    Wessex

    That's 19 factions. A 20th could be fit then; emerging Normans, or another part of the Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy (though the three kingdoms in the list were by far the most major, though East Anglia might not be a bad addition), or what you will. If Medieval II allows a few more factions, I'd still suggest at least using 22 factions; including Airgallia in Ulster, Normans emerging, and possibly Gwynedd in Wales. The Gaelic factions (Alba, Connacht, Mumu, Laigin, and anything else in Ireland, and to some vague extent the Picts {who'd absorbed a lot of Gaelic culture}) would have a pretty homogenous unit list (the Picts would have at least some similar soldiers). I believe the Anglo-Saxons would be similarly fairly homogenous to one another, the Britons as well (though slightly less; Strathclyde would certainly be at least a little different). The culture groups, in that sense, in Britain, would be; Anglo-Saxons (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex), Britons (Dumnonia, Dyfedd, Powys, Strathclyde, possibly Picts), and Gaels (Alba, Connacht, Laigin, Mumu, possibly Picts).

    For Gaels, about whom I'd know the most, they've got a pretty simple 'dress' convention for their units to follow. The poorer soldiers dress in tight trousers, thigh length shirts, and sometimes with boots or shoes, and sometimes with leather or linen 'ponchos'. The uppermost levies would wear padded jackets. The paid soldiers/mercenaries would wear knee-length shirts ('leine') with pleats, no trousers (they'd be bare-legged), and plaid, checkered, or striped 'brat' (a mantle/shoulder cloak; not very long), and many would be barefoot, but also shoes and short boots, and most would wear as well a padded jacket of some kind (and the upper most of them would wear a larger quilted coat called an acton). The highest class would dress similarly, or wear decorated robes, with longer, more colorful cloaks, and wear mail or scale armor. The main exceptions would be Gall-Gaedhil; the regular Gall-Gaedhil soldiers would dress like other paid soldiers, but wear no armor at all, though they'd have Norse weapons. The wealthier would wear mail and carry Norse equipment, but otherwise dress like Gaels. The lowest of them sometimes fought shirtless, but wore cloaks, and wore trousers (mind you, that was illegal for actual Gaels; it was forbidden by 'savagery law' for a Gael to fight shirtless, so there would be no typical shirtless Gaelic soldiers). Almost all Gaelic soldiers would carry javelins or throwing spears; the levies would form almost all bodies of longer range missile troops (archers and slingers). Mind though, there were, later in the period, professional soldiers who were archers, called Sersenach, who used imported Welsh longbows. No kilts. No 'gallowglass' (they were from the high middle ages; they have no place in dark age Ireland). No 'kerns' (the proper word is 'ceithernn', and that defines an entire body of the army; the ceithernn is the 'warband'; that is, the levied soldiers. Above them are 'bonnach' and 'buanna', paid soldiers and mercenaries, and above them are 'aire', nobles and aristocratic soldiers; none of those should be units, they are parts of the army, and each had several 'units' in them).

    For Anglo-Saxons, they had a fairly simple army organization if I recall right. You had the Ceorls and such; the various ranks of 'peasants' (which isn't a very good word for it; 'peasants' as one might recognize in a feudal body didn't exist in pre-Norman Britain and Ireland, as there were far different laws in place). There was the Greater Fyrdsmen (the larger 'Fyrd' of non-professional soldiers, poorly armored, etc.), the Select Fyrd (the better equipped and trained non-professionals), Thegns (regional 'kings' and their body guards), and Huscarls (bodyguards of the king). Those can probably be subdivided into a few seperate units based on armament though; Huscarls with sword and shield, Huscarls with the larger axes (or maybe a trick like 'Mount/Dismount' can be used for that; a 'mounted' Huscarl would have his axe out, and 'Dismounted' would be the variation of the unit with his sword and shield). Again, javelins would be prevalent. Slings and bows would be used by the 'peasant' classes (Cotsetla with slings?).

    The Picts are pretty lost in much of what we know about them; they had a form of crossbow, they were Britons originally, they absorbed a lot of Gaelic culture, and they used a form of schiltron. The best that can probably be done is create a reasonable composite of Brythonic and Gaelic units. The Britons I don't remember enough of right now; there would be the Teulu (the bodyguards of a noble), and there would be longbowmen in Wales (longbows in Welsh use long predated their later, more famous use by the English).
    "You will find something more in woods than in books. Trees and stones will teach you that which you can never learn from masters." - St. Bernard

    "The purpose of all wars, is peace." - St. Augustine

    "If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend." - St. Augustine

  15. #15
    Kscott's Avatar New and Improved!
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II



    Ideal map I think..

    Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
    MY TWC HISTORY

  16. #16
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II

    That map isn't very accurate is it? It probably should go a biiiit further east, grazing Russia, so we can incorporate the other factions pretty well.

    EDIT: I just saw your other post. VI:I was a really small map that really only focussed on the British Isles, we as a team should figure out as a whole how we're going to do this.
    Last edited by tnick777; June 22, 2006 at 01:31 PM.

  17. #17
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

    Now I've found all the emblems I need to start making the "flag" things. But I need

    Alba
    Dumnonia
    Ingrians
    Mumu
    Vikings
    Pictland
    Slavs
    Strathclyde
    Normans


    Ingria I may just do the colours in stripes because I'm almost positive there is no emblems

  18. #18

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

    You found one for 750 AD Connacht? I do hope you don't intend to use the modern banner; that was introduced in the high middle ages. The one in 750 AD would have been the white hair, I think. It was a stylized white rabbit on a red banner. Mumu, however, would use the modern banner (that of Munster), that's an old one (it was also the flag for the pre-Norman Kingdom of Ireland); the three crowns represented Tuadmumu, Urmumu, and Desmumu, the three main sub-kingdoms (though Munster had a handful of others).

    Alba, I don't know what they'd use at the time. It'd predate the cross of St. Andrew, which was, according to tradition, introduced in the 9th century (though you may want to just fudge with it a bit and use St. Andrew's cross; oldest national flag still in use {the Dannebrog is technically a state flag, and the oldest STATE flag in use}; the red hand of Ulster and the three crowns of Munster were in use earlier, but, mind that they aren't national flags). However, actual evidence of the use of the flag bearing St. Andrew's cross isn't until 1385, I believe, but I think it's the best that you'll be able to find. It's a very common design though, however, the earliest surviving example of the flag actually had the cross on a red background, not blue like the modern saltire.

    Strathclyde (Alt Clut), not certain at all to even venture a reasonable guess. The Picts we have very little evidence of what they'd have used, though a banner of some manner is reasonable. Possibly with some Pictish animal designs on it, their art could offer enough reasonable filler to put on their flag.

    I like Chormaqan's map, but, yes, just a bit further east, not too far. That would provide a reasonably focused area, and allow all of the factions some space.
    Last edited by Ranika; June 22, 2006 at 08:36 PM.
    "You will find something more in woods than in books. Trees and stones will teach you that which you can never learn from masters." - St. Bernard

    "The purpose of all wars, is peace." - St. Augustine

    "If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend." - St. Augustine

  19. #19
    tnick777's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

    If you can find it please post them


    this is the Connacht one I found


  20. #20

    Default Re: Viking Invasion II: MODDERS NEEDED!

    That flag is far out of date. And the 'white hare' is near impossible to find. ATW has a version of it, but it's an older version with a sword under it (though, really, just removing the sword would then be sufficient).
    "You will find something more in woods than in books. Trees and stones will teach you that which you can never learn from masters." - St. Bernard

    "The purpose of all wars, is peace." - St. Augustine

    "If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend." - St. Augustine

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