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Thread: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-4.0 Feedback

  1. #101
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitewolf View Post
    This is normal. Once you hit modernization level 3 the general's unit is changed: It's no longer a general's hatomoto (the traditional looking bodyguard) but becomes a general's bodyguard (smaller and weaker, has a set of different abilities and has a revolver) One of the unfortunate prices of modernization.
    Generals revolvers are powerful, make no mistake. It is not a blanket shame. Even when I play traditonal, I tech up enough to get revolver cav so if my general changes to revolver too i just drop a unit of revolver cav and take an extra unit of yari ki or two. Problem solved. Also if you like traditional armies but dont want to lose the base troop exp bonus remember that legendary dojos give a 2-3exp boost as well, so you can cancel out the exp lost from modernisation in this way. Foriegn Vets also help here.
    Last edited by rob-a-dogg; April 25, 2012 at 03:19 AM.
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  2. #102
    Lito's Avatar Vexillifer
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by yutterh View Post
    when i play any other darkmod type besides 3.9 beta my special samurais take two turns instead of one. example im playing as the shimazu and it now takes 2 turns to recruit kitana samurai instead of 1
    Quote Originally Posted by DARTH VADER View Post
    Well as the creator of the mod I cannot really find all these "a lot things missing". These that miss are mainly:
    *Special unit costs
    *Special unit recruitment options and upkeeps
    *Special character traits
    *+2 instead of +3 bonus per character upgrade
    *Increased Ship movement points

    These are 5% of the tons of things added in DarthMod, insignificant comparing to the overall BAI and gameplay improvements.
    Yes the CA patch wounded DarthMod but it remains a Beast. Enjoy.

  3. #103
    Meraun's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorStoffer View Post
    I would just like to say that the rifles currently in game are massively underpowered, especially with elite troops.

    Imperial Infantry, for instance, have 35acc/reload at rank 2 veteran (or possibly 38 reload, can't recall exactly, let's call it mid-30s for ease). This is the exact same stats as unvetted French Fusiliers in Napoleon: Total War, and slightly above Spanish Line Infantry in Empire.

    Now, this is kind of silly for a couple reasons.

    Imperial/Shogunate/Republican Infantry all appear to be equipped with a rifle called the Snider-Enfield, a British modification of an earlier American breech-loading rifle. The model used in game looks almost the exact same as stock photos, and can be differentiated from the older, 1853 Enfield also used in Japan at this time due to lack of ramrod and slightly longer length. This is a rifle designed to be fired roughly ever 6 seconds by an average soldier, with an experienced solider able to fire every ~4 seconds with reduced accuracy. This weapon further has an effective range of ~550m. Furthermore, beyond the raw weapons, factional infantry are supposed to represent the "New Guard" of Japan; these are men supposedly from Samurai classes, given good training under their own officers and foreign veterans, armed with the best weapons currently available.

    However, with their current stats, they operate like 18th century musketeers, with an effective range of tiny, and a reload roughly the same as Napoleon's Fusiliers. These are veteran troops armed with superior weapons, and they are incapable of inflicting more than 10-15% hits per volley at maybe 75m, roughly every 12 seconds. Now I understand allowances have to be made for balance, hence the 550m range is out of the question, but factional infantry and above should be positively deadly when engaged in sustained firing against virtually any target. The reality of line-battles in this time period was very high casualty rates, and while vanilla's near 100% hit rate was undoubtedly silly, the rate of fire was not, nor the idea of high casualty rates. The number of losses in the historical Boshin war were so low due to morale; troops fled quickly from these extremely lethal engagements, rather than stand and withstand barrage after barrage every few moments.

    Now, if these was a purely ranged game, I could accept these reductions to help establish balance and draw at combat (though I'd still argue factional troops aren't powerful enough in relation to standard line troops), but the problem is when melee is added in. Troops with 30/30 stats can't stop a Samurai charge under almost any circumstance, despite the reality of this conflict being head-on charges died, and died badly. These unrealistically poor firing stats makes melee much to viable in a direct confrontation, and when viewed in comparison to previous TW entries, it looks downright silly.

    I'd certainly like to see a more pronounced role of experience in combat ability, which I believe is part of the intention here, but across the board, these troops should perform better than their previous iterations in Napoleon and Empire by a large, nearly galactic gulf in quality. Even green-as-grass troops with armstrong guns and breech-loaders should cause immense casualties on troops with older minie-rifles or teppo, to say nothing of sword and spear armed Samurai. Veteran troops should simply erase them from the face of the map.

    I'm all for making melee viable, but their strength should be that if they close, they can do immense damage to range-focused soldiers, but to close they should be forced to use terrain, cover, distractions or human shields (Spear levy ahoy!), not be able to charge across an open field and destroy modern troops. 300 engineers and invalids held off 3000 zulus for a reason, much the same reason that Saigo Takamori won the battle of Toba-Fushimi against a force several times as large as his own.

    I hate to be overly critical; I love every single iteration of Darthmod, but we're dealing with a completely new era now, and the current stats for ranged troops are, quite patently, completely ahistorical and unbalanced, not representative of their equipment or training.
    I totally agree with you.I also believe that the Units with Firearme are way to weak...

  4. #104
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by rob-a-dogg View Post
    Generals revolvers are powerful, make no mistake. It is not a blanket shame. Even when I play traditonal, I tech up enough to get revolver cav so if my general changes to revolver too i just drop a unit of revolver cav and take an extra unit of yari ki or two. Problem solved. Also if you like traditional armies but dont want to lose the base troop exp bonus remember that legendary dojos give a 2-3exp boost as well, so you can cancel out the exp lost from modernisation in this way. Foriegn Vets also help here.
    Meh, I like the traditional one better: A general will lose a firefight with a unit of line infantries but it will anhilate them in melee, and traditional generals are simply better at that.

    And I never build traditional dojos, the recruitment times are too long. Where's the -1 recruitment time for higher dojo's?
    I salute those who took the Hungarian Phrasebook simply because of the quote!

  5. #105
    DARTH VADER's Avatar DARTIS
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Firearms too weak and to verify that you compare stats alone to previous Total War games? Wrong. Trust me that the effectiveness of guns include many more values than the game stats you see. By lowering them I just balanced out so that experience adds proportionally more accuracy/reload as it grows.

  6. #106
    Miles
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    I secound that Darth what i do is recruit higher end infantry and trian them up in a provance or two that is close to the action.
    i then trian them up with Vets and in 3-5 turns i have 2-3 shevron rifleman and boy they do make a differance from a fresh out of trianing trooper......
    The best form of defence.....................is ATTACK

  7. #107
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by DARTH VADER View Post
    Firearms too weak and to verify that you compare stats alone to previous Total War games? Wrong. Trust me that the effectiveness of guns include many more values than the game stats you see. By lowering them I just balanced out so that experience adds proportionally more accuracy/reload as it grows.
    This is true. As far as I know the accuracy of a unit is one thing. The firearm they use is another: Line infantry and royal marines could have the same accuracy and reload, but the marines would shoot faster and more accurately because they have a better rifle.

    I did come up with a suggestion, I don't know how possible/usefull/balanced it is, but: What if experience gave an extra point of accuracy and reload (so 3 to both instead of 2, a 50% boost) it would make experience even more important. Secondly: What if higer tier barracks add an additional level of experience to a unit which could be recruited at the previous tier? So the first tier of modern barracks allows recruitment of line infs. The second tier would allow recruitment of line infs with 1 experience, but the revolver cav (which can be recruited from tier 2 and on if I am correct) would have 0 experience. Then, at the third tier line infantry could be recruited with 2 xp, and the revolver cav with 1 xp, while the shogunate/imperial inf has 0 xp and so on.

    The first suggestion would make experience even more important, the second one makes advanced barracks more important: The higher the level of barracks the better and more modern the training facilities and the better the troops are at shooting.
    I salute those who took the Hungarian Phrasebook simply because of the quote!

  8. #108
    Meraun's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by DARTH VADER View Post
    Firearms too weak and to verify that you compare stats alone to previous Total War games? Wrong. Trust me that the effectiveness of guns include many more values than the game stats you see. By lowering them I just balanced out so that experience adds proportionally more accuracy/reload as it grows.
    Well i will do some more testing with experienced troops then. :-)

    One more Question Darth:

    Wahts the recommended Difficulty now? Normal? (So Ai doesnt get crazy bonus)

  9. #109
    DARTH VADER's Avatar DARTIS
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    I believe Hard/Hard is the optimal setting.

  10. #110
    Brips's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    I made a siege with Sengoku campaign, no bug found.

    I'm waiting with impatience the 4.0 (with 3 points for generals etc features??) to start a pure new Sengoku campaign
    All map textures improved mod:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=395355
    Real crazy medieval music (4pages):
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=389092
    More war horn sounds!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=229015
    More Loading screens MEGA pack Team!:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=389893
    Mods Oblivion and Fallout3:
    Tape "Brips" on nexus then go to author name "Brips".

  11. #111
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    not that im complainging its not there but how come it is there sometimes?

  12. #112
    MajorStoffer's Avatar Signifer
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by DARTH VADER View Post
    Firearms too weak and to verify that you compare stats alone to previous Total War games? Wrong. Trust me that the effectiveness of guns include many more values than the game stats you see. By lowering them I just balanced out so that experience adds proportionally more accuracy/reload as it grows.
    I use the old stats as example, my first hand experience in unit performance is my primary basis; they're about as effective as vanilla Napoleon line infantry variants.

    I understand the difference between the soldier and the weapon, but the thing is with this era of weapon, experience makes little difference in firing rate. The base for basic, trained, but inexperienced troops with the Snider-Enfield is a 6 second reload and able to reliably hit an unmoving target at medium range. It's the reality of modern weapons combined with antiquated tactics which made conscripts so popular; even an idiot is deadly with the current generation of firearms. An experienced soldier should be significantly more accurate, but their fire rate shouldn't change much. I can't see the justification for breech-loading troops halfing their reload rates from unvetted to vet 6. Even minie rifles are comparitively simple compared to old muskets, using paper cartridges and all.

    My primary problem, however, is that high-end ranged units, which even unvetted should have some representation of their superior training and equipment, have a devil of a time stopping a melee charge. I just don't see any of the historical lethality of these weapons, and the veterancy rewards are at odds with the reality of the weapons being used. If we were still talking about muzzle-loaded muskets, I wouldn't have any complaints, but the fact is we are not, and it leaves these troops exceedingly vulnerable to seemingly any melee unit.

    Even with vanilla laserbeam accuracy and MG rates of fire, melee troops could close if they used diversionary, or cover-focused tactics, and tear apart elite riflemen, as it should be. With these current statistics, primarily the terrible rate of fire, a samurai unit can close while taking relatively light losses, especially as the first volley fired will be horribly inaccurate, again, like a musket.

    Going through the DB tables, I simply don't understand things like Line Infantry having a 30/20 stat using minie rifles, whereas Imperial Infantry armed with snider-enfield breechloaders have a 35/28 stat! Infanterie de Marine, veteran French Marines armed with bolt-action rifles capable of firing every 3 seconds have a 35 reload stat. I understand the difference your projectile tweaks have made regarding accuracy (though I still believe it is too low based on gameplay observations with med-exp units), but the rate of fire on so many of the higher end units is ludicrous, only achieving historical rates of fire at very high veterancy levels.

    I'm perfectly capable of tweaking these to my own liking, (and suitably reducing vet bonuses) but I can't imagine I'm the only one who doesn't like the way modern firearms are represented (Note: the older teppo, and even the minie-armed troops are reasonably well done; they're outdated arms in the hands of lacklustre troops, it's the factional troops and above I have qualms with).
    Therefore, I conclude, that Valve should announce Half Life 2 Episode 3.

  13. #113
    TheCritic's Avatar Sukauto
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    You're not the only one, Stoffer. The current stats aren't deal breakers for me, but all the same I'd like to see some bumps up in lethality against charging melee units and some differentiation between higher tier units and base units. Stoffer, I like the reference in your sig, by the way. Seconded. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to play some Darth mod.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Finally had the time to sit down with the new 3.95 version and FotS, I played about 60+ turns last night and everything felt really solid. Some minor improvements here and there, but this is a very good and stable version.

    I am currently playing on Normal/Hard difficulty, just to get a feel for a full FotS campaign before bumping it up to Hard/Hard.

    Bugs:
    Only bug I encountered, and I have a feeling this is a vanilla bug, when defending a castle with any infantry unit that has kneel fire selected I can not give it any orders EXCEPT to move to a wall which they will happily do with kneel fire still on. Once those units are up against a castle wall defending I can not disable kneel fire and I can no longer give them any orders EXCEPT to go defend another wall. So if I accidentally leave kneel fire on and I order the units to go to a wall, I have to tell them to go to another wall (and hopefully there is an empty spot in the wall for them to go to) then give them a stop order, disable kneel fire and give them orders as usual.
    Also note that these behaviors are all prior to actually researching kneel fire from the tech tree. I don't except any changes once I research the technology but just in case there is I will report back in about 2 turns...


    Other observations:
    BAI attacking castles: the BAI likes to sit his general in the back with whatever cav units he has. I have seen some battles where the BAI will dismount his cav and climb the walls with the rest of the infantry/melee troops, but in general the BAI does not utilize cav/general units during castle attacks.
    This in itself is not really an issue since Cav is very limited in castle attacks but an odd occurrence I saw in one battle where the AI did not have any general units was he sat his Yari troop that was assigned as a general along with 2 other yari units in the back and did not participate with those 3 Yari units at all in the castle attack.
    I found this interested since it almost seemed like the BAI did not make a distinction between the General/Bodyguard unit, and a regular Yari unit that defaulted to a general unit. He sat the Yari "general" on the sidelines with protection just like he would have done with his general and Cav units.


    CAI and Navys:
    Definitely have not seen any gunboat spam yet, but it seems like the CAI is not building very many navy units, I have not run into any stack with more than 2-3 units in it. This could of course be because I am on normal/hard, but I wanted to point this out anyways.


    Other than that this patch is excellent. I like the way the BAI navy fights behave, not as many explosions as vanilla, current accuracy provides battles that require good strategy/movement and flanking procedures and last just about the right time. I am very happy with the way things are right now, not sure if it is historicaly accurate but it provides fun gameplay.

    Same thing with the BAI for land battles, infantry units seem to be tweaked very well, the guns seem to have enough power to take out a good number of charging Yari units, but not too overpowered to where they can take then on 1 on 1. Cav units seem to be tweaked very well, they are still very dangerous if you let them roam free, but they dont just mow down infantry like they did before, things are slowed down to where it provides solid and fun gameplay.
    Other than a few minor tweaks, I think this is a solid patch for FotS, going to get a Shogun2 campaign going sometime next week.

  15. #115
    Anjin-San's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    I had a similar bug, it seems kneel fire makes it impossible to give orders to units which have kneel fire active. I don't know how exactly this bug behaves, I have played only one fight and at that time I didn't know if it was kneel fire, but it must have been. WIll report back if I play again and find out more. Maybe just deactivating it will solve the problem. Still annoying.

  16. #116
    AlexCouceiro's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    * Playing Shogun 2 version 3.95 as Mori on hard/hard, my initial Yari Ashigaru troops had only 200 men, while Bow Ashigaru had 160 men.

    ** Post edited: Things developed somehow differently after a few more turns
    Last edited by AlexCouceiro; April 25, 2012 at 08:50 PM.
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  17. #117
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitewolf View Post
    Meh, I like the traditional one better: A general will lose a firefight with a unit of line infantries but it will anhilate them in melee, and traditional generals are simply better at that.

    And I never build traditional dojos, the recruitment times are too long. Where's the -1 recruitment time for higher dojo's?


    If you are trying to use any revolver cav in a straight up fire fight with a unit of infantry of course they lose. That is not what they are designed for, they are like shorter ranged more concentrated bow cavalry and must be treated as such. No longer are they a direct threat to their foot counterpart - because of their range. Horse should never be subjected to a frontal attack on a line of rifle. Muskets and Matchlocks you might get away with but because of the horses being so large even levys can demolish horse. If the bad guys have ranked fire watch out, dont think about walking infront of those guns.

    Use your revolver cav for flanking already locked in melee units, or to hit rifle units before they have formed up (i.e. they are running somehwere and are a mess so will take 30-40 seconds to form up at least, this is especially viable at the moment since gun units take SO long to start firing now).

    Ideally i would have my generals always be traditional, as by simply numbers (90 vs 24) they win out. In the Sengoku campaign I will easily take a high level veteran ashugaru unit over your run of the mill samurai for this same reason as they often have near equal stats +100 men.
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  18. #118
    VirarNeeda's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    * Not sure if this is intentional or not, but rebels do not suffer from winter attrition. (applies to both religious & faction rebels)

    * Defending in a siege: If ordered to melee attack a unit that is climbing the walls, sometimes a unit will run outside the fort and try to attack the targeted unit at the base of the walls. Sometimes they move outside and then run in the opposite direction of the enemy unit. >_>

    * I heard a HORRIFIC noise one time when my missionary perplexed a metsuke and leveled up at the same time. It sounded like a legion of the damned trapped in a wind tunnel. Scared the hell out of me.

  19. #119
    Anjin-San's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Lol @ sound, siege pathing bug I think is vanilla.

  20. #120
    Yari-hei
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    Default Re: DarthMod: Shogun v3.9-3.95 Feedback

    Ah thanks Elitewolf (on the generals thing) that makes sense. Ran into something strange today, the wooden hull icon on my ships unit cards is WHITE instead of brown. Copper hull icons remain the same copper color as before, just the wooden ships show this oddity. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling DMS but still there. Am I on crack or isn't that icon supposed to be brown? It is brown in the recruitment panel, but on the actual ship when I click it the unit card has three white rectangles that still say "wooden hull" at the top left. No idea why it lost its color there.

    EDIT for clarity.

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