UKIP over take LibDems in the polls

[Shaun]

In which way(s) does it not?

Well how does it help the middle classes? I cannot see how it does.

[Melvincommie]

I think you UKIP supporters need to realise that despite your clearly strong convictions against immigration and the EU, you need to realise you are a)out voted and b) naive. The UK is not the big international player it once was. Events in the EU affect us more than with other nations and I want a say in how they do, the EU is our future not America. Secondly, we need immigration. Our population is not skilled enough to be competitive, whereas foreign workers are who play a key role in our society and economy, I mean roughly 40% of the NHS is Pakistani or Indian. Our healthcare system would collapse overnight if you forced them to leave or had prevented them or their parents from immigrating here.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

I think you UKIP supporters need to realise that despite your clearly strong convictions against immigration and the EU, you need to realise you are a)out voted and b) naive. The UK is not the big international player it once was. Events in the EU affect us more than with other nations and I want a say in how they do, the EU is our future not America. Secondly, we need immigration. Our population is not skilled enough to be competitive, whereas foreign workers are who play a key role in our society and economy, I mean for christs sake you mindless idiot roughly 40% of the NHS is Pakistani or Indian. Our healthcare system would collapse overnight if you forced them to leave or had prevented them or their parents from immigrating here. Stop being deluded and childish and wise up.

Your quite right UKIP will never be able to afford us security, we need someone strong, someone who is prepared to, open the gates to the right people, good people, not merely those who can hang drywall.

The US is worthless, it is drowning, but who cares, oh and look at the polls. Out voted yes, but every person who reads a real newspaper, even one like the daily fail or the sun, wants out. The EU is our future?

The EU is bleeding itself dry, Cameron will not risk the next election by giving them more money, the eurozone can barely save itself, and the moment the cuts hit Germany, Mz. Merkiel will change her tone the moment the Germans start asking questions about where all their money is going. If the EU kills the EURO before Spain begins to bleed, it might be Europe's future, but our future, is our past, the Commonwealth Realm will be our savour, not out of faith, or out of friendship, but self interest and goodwill that if we plant now, will be ready when the EU collapses, which it will the moment the Portuguese pour across the border into Spain for work.

[Denny Crane!]

I think you UKIP supporters need to realise that despite your clearly strong convictions against immigration and the EU, you need to realise you are a)out voted

Oh dear I fear I'm going to enjoy knocking you off your high horse a tad to much, there is so much grandoise faux intellectualism and posturing its just delicious.

So point A. You are confusing support for UKIP with anti EU sentiment which is, as always, running high in the UK. Also is it is a reason not to vote for a party just because it isn't leading the polls? Because that would surely lead to no other party ever getting elected and no one would ever vote for the lib dems. But I guess that is your view of democracy, screw the principals, the morals, the legitimate reasons to support a non mainstream party; screw the greens, lib dems, social dems and UKIP because they aren't popular at this time. Best stick with Labour and Conservatives, oh wait one of those is down in the polls and thus outvoted.

Honestly? By whichever way you take point A, it is a failure.

and b) naive. The UK is not the big international player it once was.

So? Norway isn't in the EU and is OK without the need for some kind of nation penis enlargement. In fact come to think of it neither is Japan, nor is south korea but wait wasn't there a massive yet inefficient influence on the world named the USSR? They were hugely influential but massively inefficient.

What happened to the USSR? It failed, quite badly. Influence isn't the be all and end all, pedalling paranoia as a justification for unification is a terribly weak argument.

Events in the EU affect us more than with other nations and I want a say in how they do, the EU is our future not America. Secondly, we need immigration. Our population is not skilled enough to be competitive, whereas foreign workers are who play a key role in our society and economy

Oh and we can't get skilled economic workers elsewhere or have immigration from Europe without the EU. How in the hell do Australia and New Zealand survive? Oh thats right they survive really well and they have immigration and they aren't part of the EU....OH NOEZ they have no influence they are doomed 11111...how come their entire population isn't in a panic? I mean I expect massive riots in the streets any minute now.

Any minute.

Any minute trust me.

No riots in Australia yet.

I mean for christs sake you mindless idiot roughly 40% of the NHS is Pakistani or Indian. Our healthcare system would collapse overnight if you forced them to leave or had prevented them or their parents from immigrating here.

Which has nothing to do with being part of the EU but part of the commonwealth, moreover the objections to immigration usually revolve around advocation of a skillbased points system and not a free for all within EU borders coincidentally just as Australia has which would not exclude doctors from India.

Honestly I would get some better arguments, learn a little bit about what concerns people and what they advocate, and not try to show up the idiotic policies with...well the crap you just pulled here.

Edit: Oh and FYI not a UKIP supporter, just really despise crap politics, high horses based on crap politics are like a red rag to a bull.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Your quite right UKIP will never be able to afford us security, we need someone strong, someone who is prepared to, open the gates to the right people, good people, not merely those who can hang drywall.

That's verbatim Conservative policy, and they have the most MPs in Parliament.

The EU is bleeding itself dry, Cameron will not risk the next election by giving them more money, the eurozone can barely save itself, and the moment the cuts hit Germany, Mz. Merkiel will change her tone the moment the Germans start asking questions about where all their money is going. If the EU kills the EURO before Spain begins to bleed, it might be Europe's future, but our future, is our past, the Commonwealth Realm will be our savour, not out of faith, or out of friendship, but self interest and goodwill that if we plant now, will be ready when the EU collapses, which it will the moment the Portuguese pour across the border into Spain for work.

Germany's economy is incredibly strong, posting 3% growth in 2011. Following EU policy, Germany runs a deficit that is merely 1% of GDP. Exactly what cuts do you believe are on the way? Your hysteria about the EU collapsing isn't really politically plausible right now.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

That's verbatim Conservative policy, and they have the most MPs in Parliament.
and yet it does not happen, why? Because it's impossible? Wrong. Because they don't want to upset the EU.

Germany's economy is incredibly strong, posting 3% growth in 2011. Following EU policy, Germany runs a deficit that is merely 1% of GDP. Exactly what cuts do you believe are on the way? Your hysteria about the EU collapsing isn't really politically plausible right now.
[/QUOTE]

Ahem, who said they were on the way? They will happen, in due course, when things get worse, the last of the Eurozone to fall will be Germany, but Greece is gone, it's people are skint, Ireland certainly isn't happy, and Italy? Well you'd better hope they don't run out of coffee or pasta, to be frank I'm utterly flabbergasted Belgium has government, and Portugal isn't looking good from what I hear either.

[removeduser_487563287433]

and yet it does not happen, why? Because it's impossible? Wrong. Because they don't want to upset the EU.

So... we're talking about EU immigration specifically? Do you realise that the UK put heavy restrictions on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria - skilled workers only? Do you realise that refusing entry to EU cititzens generally would be violating a treaty we have ratified? Do you think the UK should be known as a country that will go back on its word?

Ahem, who said they were on the way? They will happen, in due course, when things get worse, the last of the Eurozone to fall will be Germany, but Greece is gone, it's people are skint, Ireland certainly isn't happy, and Italy? Well you'd better hope they don't run out of coffee or pasta, to be frank I'm utterly flabbergasted Belgium has government, and Portugal isn't looking good from what I hear either.

S&P published this month that it felt that Ireland's economic readjustment was now complete. Germany is growing, growing fairly strongly, and has an increasingly positive outlook for 2012 - it's pretty absurd to talk about it "falling". The rest of your post was just crude stereotyping.

[Melvincommie]

UKIP are seen as a two policy party that of restricted immigration and leaving the EU, that you cannot deny is true. The last referendum was a win for joining the EEC which is the mandate given to show the people want to be in the EEC. FPTP is a system which will nearly always create a clear winner, coaltions are a rare oddity, so yes it does make sense to vote for one or the other because either one or the other will win, so its a choice between who I think won't mess up as much as the other.

The USSR failed because of a number of reasons too long to explain to you but you are confusing a totalitarian system with a liberal democratic one so I am not quite sure how your argument works out? It is quite a stretch to compare the gulags of the USSR to the politics of the EU?

Inefficent? Try looking at the statistics, non EEC countries grew much faster and had higher rates of productivity than their non EEC neighbours, its why we practically begged to be let in. The decisions made in Brussels do affect us so I would rather we have a say in them than let the French and Germans decide for us. This isn't ideologly its just good foreign policy.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Denny Crane, I really think this debate stopped being about UKIP and started being about who gets to win the argument several pages ago.

Why is anti-EU sentiment so common in the UK? I've never run into a single bit of it in Ireland.

And let's not kid ourselves here. There's no rationality involved in any opinions towards the EU. It all comes directly from amygdala. But I see no difference between money flowing between parts of a country and flowing between different countries.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

Why is anti-EU sentiment so common in the UK? I've never run into a single bit of it in Ireland.

Because our empire is still some what intact in the fact that we are all still under that same Queen, we believe we should have had an alternative, that we should have looked after our own rather than the frogs.

Oh and yes, as far as most of us are concerned we were put next to Europe in order to invade it, and we are not, part of the continent.

In short we hate all of you.

So... we're talking about EU immigration specifically? Do you realise that the UK put heavy restrictions on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria - skilled workers only? Do you realise that refusing entry to EU cititzens generally would be violating a treaty we have ratified? Do you think the UK should be known as a country that will go back on its word?

Never stopped us before, and skilled workers are the wrong criteria.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Because our empire is still some what intact in the fact that we are all still under that same Queen, we believe we should have had an alternative, that we should have looked after our own rather than the frogs.

Uh, our Empire is no more intact than that of France or the Netherlands... the Netherlands is even a monarchy uniting the remnants. I think you are instead referring to the Commonwealth, which is a million miles from "our Empire".

So this doesn't help to explain the UK's negative attitude towards the EU. Furthermore, when you talk about "looking after our own" I don't think you mean Botswana or Uganda, rather Australia and Canada. As if they need our help.

Oh and yes, as far as most of us are concerned we were put next to Europe in order to invade it, and we are not, part of the continent.

Interesting definition of "most".

Never stopped us before, and skilled workers are the wrong criteria.

Stopped us from doing what? If not skills, then what's the right criteria?

[Father Jack]

In short we hate all of you.

Who is this 'we'?

[Aymer de Valence]

We have the 4th largest military budget in the world. There is no problem with the size of the budget. The problem is with procurement and a horribly inefficient MoD.

Where is your source for such a large claim? I highly doubt our military budget ranks beside that of USA, China, Russia, North Korea, India and Brazils....

May I ask what you know of the current immigration system? What's your experience of it?

Even the left-wing Biased Bolshevik Corporation known as the BBC reports on the sorry state of our border controls.

So this doesn't help to explain the UK's negative attitude towards the EU

You only have to look into history to gain evidence of why the UK does not like a European hegemony

[removeduser_487563287433]

Where is your source for such a large claim? I highly doubt our military budget ranks beside that of USA, China, Russia, North Korea, India and Brazils....

It does...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures

We usually match France. You could have looked this up really easily. Considering that we're a very small country next to the USA, China and Russia, I think it's perfectly reasonable that we rank below them (we're not even that far behind Russia). Brazil is 6 places below us, India 4 and North Korea doesn't even make the top 15... so your perspective is totally warped here.

Are you learning the importance of data based opinion yet?

Even the left-wing Biased Bolshevik Corporation known as the BBC reports on the sorry state of our border controls.

For example?

[Aymer de Valence]

HAHA Wikipedia as a reputable source?!? Are you having a laugh?

Are you learning the importance of data based opinion yet

Certainly not from your sources. Wikipedia, the Guardian.....

[removeduser_487563287433]

You only have to look into history to gain evidence of why the UK does not like a European hegemony

Boring bombastic posturing. Other European states have less reason to like it, if you take "a look into history".

HAHA Wikipedia as a reputable source?!? Are you having a laugh?

Try harder. The source is the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. The produce fully referenced reports.

[Aymer de Valence]

Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

On Wikipedia....

[removeduser_487563287433]

On Wikipedia....

Okay. You seem to be struggling with the notion of a source vs a publisher. The source is whatever actually produces the data, whereas a publisher simply publishes the resulting data. For example, your lovely poll on UKIP has been published by the worthless, trashy, phone-hacking tabloid wasteland The Sun, but that's okay because the source was YouGov, a reputable polling company.

Same here. The source is a reputable Think Tank. Wikipedia is just, in this case, a publisher.

Do you understand yet or shall I fetch some finger puppets?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Channel 4 have done a fact check on UKIP's London Manifesto. The verdict: "pie-in-the-sky vision".

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...stand-up/10236

[Denny Crane!]

UKIP are seen as a two policy party that of restricted immigration and leaving the EU, that you cannot deny is true.

Yeah you don't seem to understand (despite my explaining it quite clearly) I wasn't defending UKIP, I was attacking ridiculous criticisms of UKIP based on ludicrous arguments.

The last referendum was a win for joining the EEC which is the mandate given to show the people want to be in the EEC. FPTP is a system which will nearly always create a clear winner, coaltions are a rare oddity, so yes it does make sense to vote for one or the other because either one or the other will win, so its a choice between who I think won't mess up as much as the other.

This is gibberish, not sure who are what you are addressing but it isn't making any sense to me.

The USSR failed because of a number of reasons too long to explain to you but you are confusing a totalitarian system with a liberal democratic one so I am not quite sure how your argument works out? It is quite a stretch to compare the gulags of the USSR to the politics of the EU?

No I was saying that influence isn't everything, the USSR had influence and failed. The EU might be a totally different system but has proven itself unstable. I did not nor did I intend to in the slightest make them seem to be similar systems but the idea that attaining influence at the expense of stability and success for the general population AGAINST that populations will is rather just...silly.

Inefficent? Try looking at the statistics, non EEC countries grew much faster and had higher rates of productivity than their non EEC neighbours, its why we practically begged to be let in. The decisions made in Brussels do affect us so I would rather we have a say in them than let the French and Germans decide for us. This isn't ideologly its just good foreign policy.

Begged to be let in? Check your facts. For a start the EEC and the EU are different entities, are you in a time dialation or are you just deliberately lying?

We didn't beg to be let in. We wanted a different organisation, we reluctantly entered into the EEC in order to avoid international tariffs and gain some measure of free trade but it categorically was not what we wished for.

Now I really can't continue to debate with you unless you A. create points clearly and concisely and B. don't fabricate lies to underlie your points. And I'd rather they were lies rather than outright ignorance of recent British political history because that would be rather disappointing. At least there would be motive behind the lies.

Denny Crane, I really think this debate stopped being about UKIP and started being about who gets to win the argument several pages ago.

Why is anti-EU sentiment so common in the UK? I've never run into a single bit of it in Ireland.

Probably because it is undemocratic. No referendums, decisions taken away and a large degree of populist ignorance mixed with real genuine concerns. The fact is it really is a mix of both genuine and delusional concern.

And let's not kid ourselves here. There's no rationality involved in any opinions towards the EU. It all comes directly from amygdala. But I see no difference between money flowing between parts of a country and flowing between different countries.

No rationality between choice and lack of choice or...? Eh..again not making sense. This debate seems to bring it out.

On Wikipedia....

You kidding, you don't think wikipedia ever contains accurate information? Even if it is sourced in accurate sources?

OK then...