Barry's Bar

[Ace_General]

I will be helping my brother recover from knee surgery for the next few days so I won't be able to post a huge amount, but I will re-do my character and I have a very strong preference to play the leader Greek Revolt and if I can I would like to call "dibs" on it.

[Barry Goldwater]

Sweet, welcome aboard Dan. There's nothing wrong with registering at a later date, RL must take priority over an internet game after all.

@Ace That's no prob, I expect the first few days of the game to be fairly slow & heavily centered on the Partition of Babylon anyway. Hope your brother recovers speedily, btw.

[Ace_General]

Well after a long day of helping my brother around Im settling in on a recliner with an adult beverage and reading Thucydides. What is everyone else reading at this moment?

[Dan the Man]

The Gesta Tancredi of Ralph of Caen, for a research project.

[Dirty Chai]

Just a novel, River of Stars; it's a "low fantasy" analogue of the Song Dynasty, with I think what is also plot elements taken from Chinese novel "The Water Margin".

Its sequel to a book before it called "Under Heaven", which set in the same world's version of the Tang dynasty right before the An Lushan Rebellion (which may have caused the deaths of 40 million people IIRC)

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Having finished the first volume earlier today, I'm reading volume II of The Wars of Alexander's Successors.

[Ace_General]

Just a novel, River of Stars; it's a "low fantasy" analogue of the Song Dynasty, with I think what is also plot elements taken from Chinese novel "The Water Margin".

Its sequel to a book before it called "Under Heaven", which set in the same world's version of the Tang dynasty right before the An Lushan Rebellion (which may have caused the deaths of 40 million people IIRC)

Rebellions in China and the major han on han wars are always crazy stuff. I took a class on Chinese history from the Tang Dynasty all the way to the fall of the Qing. I should check out under heaven if I get a chance

and @Pyrrhus I might have to take a look at that series too. Despite the postion I am taking ingame, I actually dont really care much for the greeks, but rather prefer the Macedonians and Republican Romans. I really think Phillip doesnt get as much credit in history just from the state building that he did. Not to mention how Alexander probably would of turned out differently had he matured under the command of his father.

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Rebellions in China and the major han on han wars are always crazy stuff. I took a class on Chinese history from the Tang Dynasty all the way to the fall of the Qing. I should check out under heaven if I get a chance

and @Pyrrhus I might have to take a look at that series too. Despite the postion I am taking ingame, I actually dont really care much for the greeks, but rather prefer the Macedonians and Republican Romans. I really think Phillip doesnt get as much credit in history just from the state building that he did. Not to mention how Alexander probably would of turned out differently had he matured under the command of his father.

Phillip does get credit for his efforts in many of the books I have read the deal with the subject. He's simply overshadowed by Alexander's gargantuan accomplishments.

[Dirty Chai]

It's very good. I know you hate "fake history" Ace, but it's very .. uh.. authentic. And the lack of bloodthirsty protagonists is always a bit refreshing in settings with mass military background and ramifications. But at the same time, I should warn you, this author typically focuses on the consequences and ramifications of military engagements and wars rather than the wars and battles themselves; there's tons of political maneuvering and rumors about military movements though. And there's plenty of Shakespear-esque scenes that imply a lot about larger events.

But yeah, China has always been insanely big in every way, its really hard for westerners to wrap their minds around it fully at first.

After I read Under Heaven, though, I approach the An Lushan rebellion mentally with a certain moral gravity to the destruction and loss of life it caused. I mean, 40 million people.. Mass famine. Panic. Fear. And the greatest city in the world at that time, Chang'an, just absolutely destroyed..

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

It's very good. I know you hate "fake history", but it's very .. uh.. authentic. And the lack of bloodthirsty protagonists is always a bit refreshing in settings with mass military background and ramifications. But at the same time, I should warn you, this author typically focuses on the consequences and ramifications of military engagements and wars rather than the wars and battles themselves; there's tons of political maneuvering and rumors about military movements though. And there's plenty of Shakespear-esque scenes that imply a lot about larger events.

But yeah, China has always been insanely big in every way, its really hard for westerners to wrap their minds around it fully at first.

After I read Under Heaven, though, I approach the An Lushan rebellion mentally with a certain moral gravity to the destruction and loss of life it caused. I mean, 40 million people.. Mass famine. Panic. Fear. And the greatest city in the world at that time, Chang'an, just absolutely destroyed..

With an endorsement like that I may need to look into the period. Really 40 million dead? That's simply immense for any war before WWI.

[Dirty Chai]

40 million is the top count, now that I'm really thinking about it. More reasonable estimates are thrown about in the 30 million range by modern scholars. But the census records from before and after the An Lushan Rebellion are quite scary in difference, and the Tang was known for its OCD level of control over its own people and economy (they redistributed land parcels every few years to stop the buildup of landowning aristocrats) so I think the censuses should be given some level of credibility

[Ace_General]

40 million is the top count, now that I'm really thinking about it. More reasonable estimates are thrown about in the 30 million range by modern scholars. But the census records from before and after the An Lushan Rebellion are quite scary in difference, and the Tang was known for its OCD level of control over its own people and economy (they redistributed land parcels every few years to stop the buildup of landowning aristocrats) so I think the censuses should be given some level of credibility

From my reading, the body counts of Chinese conflicts are somewhat inflated if you go off census counts, as I would figure that in a time of societal breakdown, just as many people are either evading taxes or have moved to new areas or away from the areas under the direct control of the state. Thats partially you got things like hill tribes, and the immense migration of people as settlers and traders and fugitives to the south, and that movement of people ran into the natives and either they were annihilated, assimilated, or sent out as further population shockwaves and migrations throughout asia.

If I remember correctly from my reading of Guns, Germans, and Steel, the ancestors of the modern day Polynesians were from the coast of Southern China and Taiwan, and then ended up by the early modern period literally half a world away

[Dirty Chai]

That's true of course, but that still keeps the probable death toll at around 30 million at least.

Though, I don't agree your suggestion that populations moving south was a problem for the Tang.
Ancestors of Polynesians and Tai tribes (if any of them did indeed live in what is modern China) had already left what is considered China sphere long before the Tang, so its kind of an irrelevant point. Unless you were just bringing it up because it's interesting (it IS interesting; Taiwan is depicted in some art from China and Japan I believe with Maori-like inhabitants). But there shouldn't be any big ethnic migrations in the south of China.

It was the south of China that the Tang in the end retained the most control over, the Jiangnan area. This area also received the least damage from the An Lushan crisis, while the western territories in Liang and the Tarim were lost or very damaged after being cut off by the An Lushan Rebellion taking control of the mountains of Shaanxi and the passes along the Yellow River. Most people who fled Chang'an went west or south, but overall I'd wager most people who fled the chaos of the period would try to go into southern China, where the Tang administration was strongest in its twilight years.

EDIT: Sorry, yes, populations moving in general was bad for the Tang and their censuses. I somehow construed your mention of the Polynesians moving from the south to mean that you were suggesting populations generally moved south in this period.

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

40 million is the top count, now that I'm really thinking about it. More reasonable estimates are thrown about in the 30 million range by modern scholars. But the census records from before and after the An Lushan Rebellion are quite scary in difference, and the Tang was known for its OCD level of control over its own people and economy (they redistributed land parcels every few years to stop the buildup of landowning aristocrats) so I think the censuses should be given some level of credibility

I'm really going to have to look into this further. Extremely interesting looking at the numbers by themselves.

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Some skimming has shown that there is very widespread disagreement over the 36 million figure. The main argument is that the numbers show a breakdown in the census system and the territory they lost would explain the smaller census estimates. Interesting to say the least.

[Dirty Chai]

And I do agree that the numbers are very likely exaggerated or simply inflated, but not to the extent that the death toll could be proportionately much smaller. Certainly don't think any European empire of the time could have handled the loss of that many people.

[Ace_General]

And I do agree that the numbers are very likely exaggerated or simply inflated, but not to the extent that the death toll could be proportionately much smaller. Certainly don't think any European empire of the time could have handled the loss of that many people.

I mean, wasnt the population of the Roman empire at its height maybe 100 million people. 30-40 million people would pretty much be everyone east of Greece. And didnt from the little ice age, bubonic plauge of Justinian(which I think ushered in the dark age more then anything) and the political upheaval and fragmentation of Europe, didnt the population not recover to those levels till like the 1300s, and then after the black death not until the 1500s

At least with China, it was for the most part one contiguous mass of (at least in the north china plain) fairly dense population and with a common administration, and linguistic and cultural conformity(at least amongst elites)

Also, its a little surprising how civil things are in the Partition of Babylon. Seems like you guys are in broad agreement and I should be worried hahaha.

Now barry, is Roxanna's kid gonna come out as historical or is it gonna be a random roll?

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

And I do agree that the numbers are very likely exaggerated or simply inflated, but not to the extent that the death toll could be proportionately much smaller. Certainly don't think any European empire of the time could have handled the loss of that many people.

They probably couldn't have, but most European nations did survive the Black Death. Which in some countries killed 70-80% of the population. Humans just seem determined and resistant in general.

[Ace_General]

They probably couldn't have, but most European nations did survive the Black Death. Which in some countries killed 70-80% of the population. Humans just seem determined and resistant in general.

Or we just really really like to , and before modern birth control, if there was land and resources available we would fill it up in a few generations

[Dirty Chai]

About the Partition..

Just wait till the Regent Hagen wanders off to Makedonia with Alexander's body.
Iran and the Near East are about to be a -storm.