Existence of God

[-Stormrage-]

All senses pass through the brain, the brain is physical, it is comprised of neurons, charged particles and releases complex chemicals, the concept of a soul (in the religious sense) is obsolete.

Sure, senses pass through the brain, that doesnt change anything. My point still stands, we humans get knowledge by using our senses, and by using our Logic. The word brain, represents Logic.

Do you think otherwise ?

Now as for the soul, you said, "the concept of a soul (in the religious sense) is obsolete," what about the concept of soul in a nonreligious sense, you accept that ?
Therefore, you agree to the presence of a soul. We are not a bag of meat, blood, and bone walking around. A word may hurt us, more then a knife stab would, what is a word its something so trivial, so small, its just sound waves hitting our eardrums. But look at the devastation it can cause.

My heart doesn't convey information so complex, love can only exist in the brain, it can be measured and studied, it can be conjured and controlled artificially, it's not an abstract concept from an unnatural plane of existence.

Still did you arrive to the conclusion that you love your mother through your logical reasoning ? Does a child have to go to school to learn Love, its something felt on the inside. And when that child feels it inside him, no matter what you do or say you can never convince him otherwise. It doesnt matter where love exists, what does matter is that you gain knowledge through your spiritual heart or soul.

Answer me this one question, did you arrive at the conclusion that you love your mother through your brain, did your logic tell you "yah lets love that women she's been good to me".



Nobody knows how time began, it is one of the greatest mysteries known to man. As a men we can choose to accept our ignorance with courage, or we can choose to fill our ignorance with stories of magic and wishful thinking.
But the fact remains, it began. and thus, logic dictates there must have been something before time, which is strong enough and intelligent enough to start such a fascinating thing as time. Or maybe it was just another explosion ay ? :p

Therefore your hypothetical god would need a begginer and so on, it's an infinite regression, or you could say your hypothetical god is infinite which is an even more simple minded infinite regression. These are part of the infinity of possibility.

Allah does not need a begginer, for he never began. He has no beginning for he created time. Sure their are infinite possibilities, but there is only one logical possibility, and thats what we're discussing as logical human beings. The one possibility which stands the test of Logic.

So you can't get away by playing the "i dont know" card. We have been blessed with Logic and rational thinking , lets use it.

[Himster]

Sure, senses pass through the brain, that doesnt change anything. My point still stands, we humans get knowledge by using our senses, and by using our Logic. The word brain, represents Logic.

Do you think otherwise ?

We agree up to this point, it is after this that you clumsily jam your god into the gaps of human knowledge that we disagree.

Now as for the soul, you said, "the concept of a soul (in the religious sense) is obsolete," what about the concept of soul in a nonreligious sense, you accept that ?

The secular meaning of the word soul is a metaphor, it's a literary device, it's a short-hand buzz-word that describes what it means to be human.

Therefore, you agree to the presence of a soul. We are not a bag of meat, blood, and bone walking around. A word may hurt us, more then a knife stab would, what is a word its something so trivial, so small, its just sound waves hitting our eardrums. But look at the devastation it can cause.

All pain passes through the brain, physical and mental, you appear to be arguing against the religious soul.

Still did you arrive to the conclusion that you love your mother through your logical reasoning ? Does a child have to go to school to learn Love, its something felt on the inside. And when that child feels it inside him, no matter what you do or say you can never convince him otherwise. It doesnt matter where love exists, what does matter is that you gain knowledge through your spiritual heart or soul.

Answer me this one question, did you arrive at the conclusion that you love your mother through your brain, did your logic tell you "yah lets love that women she's been good to me".

Filial affection is most likely an evolutionary development.

But the fact remains, it began. and thus, logic dictates there must have been something before time,

That was the assumption before Einstein, we know now that without time what we understand as cause and effect has no meaning.

which is strong enough and intelligent enough to start such a fascinating thing as time. Or maybe it was just another explosion ay ? :p

Another question that human logic cannot currently penetrate, even though it's quite popular to pretend that we can.

Allah does not need a begginer, for he never began. He has no beginning for he created time. Sure their are infinite possibilities, but there is only one logical possibility, and thats what we're discussing as logical human beings. The one possibility which stands the test of Logic.

So you can't get away by playing the "i dont know" card. We have been blessed with Logic and rational thinking , lets use it.

You can pretend to use logic to prove your pre-conception all you want, for rational human beings the rule is: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[sumskilz]

The secular meaning of the word soul is a metaphor, it's a literary device, it's a short-hand buzz-word that describes what it means to be human.

That is also what the Hebrew word in the Bible often translated as "soul" actually means. The idea of a separation between body and soul was a later Hellenistic influence.

[SuperTechmarine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...0&feature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WXCu...eature=related

This^

[mishkin]

(why is no one answering this?)

Sorry. I personally am tired of arguing about superstitions.
(I'm just here to see how goes the madness).

[Himster]

This^

(why is no one answering this?)

So the Koran uses the scientific knowledge from the greeks (the light of the moon, a rudimentary big-bang theory, the spheroid earth, the water cycle etc.) and so muslims claims that the Koran is therefore the revelatory word on Allah?
Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

[SuperTechmarine]

So the Koran uses the scientific knowledge from the greeks (the light of the moon, a rudimentary big-bang theory, the spheroid earth, the water cycle etc.) and so muslims claims that the Koran is therefore the revelatory word on Allah?
Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

The Quran was finished before the Muslim Caliphate even entered war against the Byzantine Empire.

All of these revelations were all accounted before during the lifetime of Muhammad(PBUH).

Quite frankly i believe the guy if you dont to believe him its ok.

[Kissaki]

The Quran was finished before the Muslim Caliphate even entered war against the Byzantine Empire.

All of these revelations were all accounted before during the lifetime of Muhammad(PBUH).

Quite frankly i believe the guy if you dont to believe him its ok.

What does the Muslim Caliphate or the Byzantine Empire have to do with it? What of Bahira, whom Muhammed met while very young? What about Muhammed's first whife, Khadija, whose cousin was Christian, and, as far as I know, was Christian herself before becoming the first Muslim? Would there really be no transference of knowledge from those quarters, you think?

[spanish_emperor]

eh, what happened to the old thread? i had such good posts there lost in the hundreds of pages never to be read again

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

The Quran was finished before the Muslim Caliphate even entered war against the Byzantine Empire.

All of these revelations were all accounted before during the lifetime of Muhammad(PBUH).

Quite frankly i believe the guy if you dont to believe him its ok.

A lot of trade went through Arabia well before there was a Roman Empire.

[SuperTechmarine]

What does the Muslim Caliphate or the Byzantine Empire have to do with it? What of Bahira, whom Muhammed met while very young? What about Muhammed's first whife, Khadija, whose cousin was Christian, and, as far as I know, was Christian herself before becoming the first Muslim? Would there really be no transference of knowledge from those quarters, you think?

Maybe, but it is generally accepted that these texts came from the Muslim Conquests of the Middle East.

[Himster]

All of these revelations were all accounted before during the lifetime of Muhammad(PBUH).

They were empirical discoveries/hypotheses mostly made by greek scientists long before Muhammed.

[SuperTechmarine]

They were empirical discoveries/hypotheses mostly made by greek scientists long before Muhammed.

How did they get to Arabia then?

[mishkin]

Thanks to libraries and scholars?

[SuperTechmarine]

Thanks to libraries and scholars?

Hey Europe at the time was in its Dark Ages while Islam was in its GOLDEN AGE.
Any scientific inventions at the time were

A:Translated Greek texts
B:Islamic scientists(or Scholars) taking the above and improving above them.

Its too bad Harun Al-Rashid died, we could have colonized Mars already.

PS: Islam today is in its Dark Ages, wait awhile (500 years at the most) and everything will be fixed

RENAISSANCE, MUSLIM STYLE!!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[Himster]

How did they get to Arabia then?

A thousand years of trade, especially with Hellenised Egypt and later Romanised Eygpt, specifically the trade of incense.

[SuperTechmarine]

A thousand years of trade, especially with Hellenised Egypt and later Romanised Eygpt, specifically the trade of incense.

I love incense.

gimme

EDIT: Found a fallacy in your theory, no way Muhammad could have read it. (He was illiterate)

[Kissaki]

Hey Europe at the time was in its Dark Ages while Islam was in its GOLDEN AGE.

First of all: "dark ages" is a very treacherous term which should not be taken as being particularly descriptive of the time. Second, the Greek knowledge was established and had already spread far and wide long before this. Third, Islam was in its golden age because of its rapid expansion, not because they had some sort of scientific advantage.

Any scientific inventions at the time were

A:Translated Greek texts
B:Islamic scientists(or Scholars) taking the above and improving above them.

So if the basis is Greek knowledge, how is this a feather in the hat for the Quaran, exactly? Earlier you seemed to imply that the Quaran had special knowledge without Greek influence.

Its too bad Harun Al-Rashid died, we could have colonized Mars already.


PS: Islam today is in its Dark Ages, wait awhile (500 years at the most) and everything will be fixed

RENAISSANCE, MUSLIM STYLE!!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Oh, for crying out loud. Religion has nothing to do with scientific or social progress. At best religion simply doesn't stand in the way. At worst, it halts progression. There is no instance of scientific discovery because of religion.

You are right, though, that Islam seems to follow the same evolution as Christianity, more or less. Islam today is where Christianity was 500 years ago. It is entirely feasible that Islam will undergo heavy secularisation, like the West did. In fact, I fully expect it to happen, and quite sooner than 500 years from now as well. God can only hide in the unknown ("I can't imagine the cause, so God did it"), and God is fast running out of hiding places.

EDIT: Found a fallacy in your theory, no way Muhammad could have read it. (He was illiterate)

Why would he have to have read it? Even today, among the perfectly literate, knowledge is also gained by the use of one's ears. University students still attend lectures, for example.

[sumskilz]

I love incense.

gimme

EDIT: Found a fallacy in your theory, no way Muhammad could have read it. (He was illiterate)

Was he also def or knew no one who could read?

We also have to just assume Muhammad was the source of all the text of the Quran because that's the tradition, but it's hard to know for certain since it was written down after his death.

[Himster]

EDIT: Found a fallacy in your theory, no way Muhammad could have read it. (He was illiterate)

Unless he was deaf he would have heard it.
Which do you think would be more believable to someone from outside your religion:
1. Muhammad heard about scientific discoveries made by the greeks, preserved by the romans, from when he was a merchant.
2. His god told him.

Note: I'm not claiming that Mohammad did repeat science he heard from the Greeks, I'm simply stating that to most people from outside your religion that is the more reasonable proposal.