Papacy a little agressive

[75Antons]

Now, the Pope was always a temperamental kinda guy in those days, but I am now playing Milan and I am in the year 1115 (no crashes yet ) and the Pope has taken it upon himself to eradicate the Sicilians and now controls all of Southern Italy from Spoleto down (including Malta, which he took off the Moors)to make a total of 8 territories. As they are my longstanding allies (always a useful ally) I don't really want to be racing them to take the rest of the world. Is there something changed in their approach to the cities near them? They seem to be playing as a normal faction.

[Keogh]

hahaha yes ive noticed that they are a bit strong nothing ive done! Ive been trying to work on the mod this weekend and campaign AI turned into the main focus. My main aim was to stop all the perfect relationships from occuring but alot alot more work is required tbh. For some reason you get perfect relations, not just with a faction but with all the targets allies, for just offering trade rights? even if the triggers are removed from faction standings and diplomacy. Anyway Ill take a look at the papal states AI params.

[75Antons]

Yes, I've noticed the perfect relations, I even had it with Scotland and at the time I had sent an army to Britain to aid the English (my allies) reconquer Nottingham and York, so I was heavily involved in a nice war with them. It was nice to know that even after I had killed about 3000 of their soldiers, they liked me

[75Antons]

Oh and Keogh, top marks for keeping this fantastic mod going and for anyone else that is aiding you, I for one, really appreciate it.

[Keogh]

Thanks! 75Antons

And thanks for your input also, i appreciate all the input/suggestions everyone has!

Do you think papal armies should be involved in crusades more? ie a papal army being sent towards crusade targets. or would you prefer to see them just be interested in holding onto rome leaving the glory to crusaders.

Were the sicillians excommunicated before the papal states attacked?

[75Antons]

I do think that the Papacy should go on Crusades (as it seems to fit). The Sicilians DID get excommunicated, but they lost their king twice during the war (reinstated to the Catholic fold) and we had a Papal election, so there were 3 times the war could/should have ended, but it didn't. I do think they should defend themselves if attacked, but to go hunting for an enemy seems a little silly, as none of the Catholic factions can attack them without dire consequences, they are in a great position to take a lot of Europe, but in reality they didn't. So, holding Rome is their main preoccupation (as Rome is a very well equipped city and they have a big army to start, they can wipe Italy flat if not constrained somehow), taking other cities can and should happen if they are attacked, but I do think that as soon as a faction is reconciled it should auto end any war with the Pope.

[75Antons]

Oh, one other thing, the AI doesn't seem to care one little bit about making roads or even the basic barracks (relying very heavily on mercenaries in some cases. I am playing on 2 turns per year and with Milan, after 38 years I own 22 settlements and have the largest army, most advanced (with my territories I am also the biggest faction) I even have over 400,000 gold that I simply can't spend. I love the potential scope for this mod (it is the best Med 2 mod I have played) but something is a bit wrong. Milan start with 2 family members and 1 territory, I always play VH VH and I feel that the game is somewhat done for this faction. I feel that even before the Mongols invade I would be way too powerful for them to take down, I am at war with 2 of the 3 other very large factions (Moors and Egypt, not with Kiev) and I am destroying 1-3 armies of theirs every year (I am expanding far faster than I feel comfortable doing due to the Pope trying to take the Balkans from the Byzantines)... what to do? I don't have a well formulated opinion of where the balance can be addressed tbh, but I do feel that some of the cities generate far too much wealth (Venice is making just under 14,000 per turn). I find that after the starting struggle to gain as many of the rebel settlements as you army size will dictate, the pattern is set and I just waltz through my enemies (though they do have massive forces now, not always something this mod could be accused of, I once took all of Germany, France and England with just 2 Sicilian armies, fighting all 3 at the same time, as they had no forces to face me).
The AI balance on their army selection is great, lots of archer units backed up by useful foot troops, sadly, they have a problem, the archers charge off towards my army to rain death and destruction on my, leaving a huge gap between them and their protection, then my cavalry smash them to bits, with no worry about any spears as they are too far away to help..... sorry, a bit of a rant there

[Big Dogg]

well milan being super powered is a problem in vanilla anyway but the whole economy has been re balanced for version 3.0 so that you don't end up in that sort of situation. A quick way to fix that in the mean while would be to expand and then give say two thirds or maybe just half your empire to one or two other factions, give them a while to put troops there and then attack. Takes a while but is worth it when you own half the map and another faction owns the rest

[75Antons]

Oooooo, now thats's a plan.. I did (as mentioned earlier) aid England against the Scots, retook Nottingham, York and captured Edinburgh, then gave them away

[Keogh]

well milan being super powered is a problem in vanilla anyway but the whole economy has been re balanced for version 3.0 so that you don't end up in that sort of situation.

Yes Milan are powerful, and I did add things into 3.0 to assist! (infact a placholder cai was used in the beta) but 3.0 has not been worked on for some months. The mod was geared by a lot of Ilmriks ideas and scripting, and he has not been in touch for a while. also the beta has not really generated a lot of reports from the testers! except from zade and chubbo55! and imo quite a way from being completed.

Due to this Ive planned (done) a rework of 2.4.1 hoping to get some of the previously requested features in (unit sizes - formations etc) and have a stable version for anyone not on kingdoms! Ive already started a new kingdoms version using the 2.4.2 files, and will maybe release as 2.5 - 2.6? using strat models and other things Iv already worked on for 3.0. Iv decided to keep condo's units bai etc as opposed to the changes made in 3.0 and Il be opening a thread and maybe a poll or two to see what people want in future releases - factions/events etc but more on that when ive added a little colour to 2.4.2 and uploaded as a full version.

[75Antons]

I don't think Milan are that over powered tbh, starting with a tiny family and just one province, by the time I have 1 full stack I had the Venetians in the area with at least 3 (that was a very fun fight on the outskirts of Venice, I had 1 spare unit of spears actually on the bridge and the full army (-1)besieging the city, they had to attack the spears to get to my full army and could not link with their 4th army in the city, by the time their troops had crossed the bridge, their missile troops were too far from their foot troops, in about 3 mins my 2 generals and 1 men at arms units had killed about 6-700 archers and captured a further 200.. basicly.. it was a massacre they lost roughly 4000 men to my 450odd, they then paid me 12k to get their men back, I took the city that turn and then they paid me (at my request) 5k to have peace)

I think my main problem is that after 20-30 turns you make more money than you can ever spend and that is what kills it a little. The original 1.0 was a bugger in terms of finance and you really had to be careful what you spent it on, sadly it also meant that not even the AI factions had armies... oh...I'm off again on a rant... sorry

[75Antons]

Ok, I gave away 8 territories and canceled my alliance with the Pope, then attacked him Killed him in a battle outside Naples, then something strange happened. All his field armies (and there was quite a few) turned rebel......

[Big Dogg]

That does tend to happen. If your playing 2.4.1 I do believe that unless your king has a high authority rating then armies rebel easily, this may have been an attempt at succession script but i don't really know.

@Keogh you don't happen to have a link to the 3.0 beta you could send me, I never got a chance to play it

[75Antons]

Playing 2.4.2 and as the Pope doesn't have the same succession issues as us mere mortals, I thought the death of the Pope (at my bloody and murderous hands mwuhahahaha) would be something the game would just shrug off as it happens quite a lot (When you elect someone who is 60-70 to be the head of the church, there is only one promotion left open to them and that is death )

[Big Dogg]

Well that is the kind of craziness that i feel TLR strives for

Keep it weird TLR!

[wibletg]

That does tend to happen. If your playing 2.4.1 I do believe that unless your king has a high authority rating then armies rebel easily, this may have been an attempt at succession script but i don't really know.

@Keogh you don't happen to have a link to the 3.0 beta you could send me, I never got a chance to play it

I wondered why my armies kept rebelling

Bit of a pain when you're in the middle of a big fight with the Spanish and the Murabitun Caliphate over the whole peninsula

[Big Dogg]

Well that is why i kill off all generals that have low loyalty

[75Antons]

me too, suicide missions or a single boat in the sea... either way works

Also, I never send out armies without generals unless they will end the turn in a city, I lost too many troops that way in Rome TW and I haven't done it since (unless ofc the loss of a city is at stake and I have no other choice)

[Keogh]

yes.. on the popes death, another should be selected from the cardinals. only real way of stopping the papal states is to kill all cardinals/priests etc... even if you take rome, and there is still a college of cardinals the new pope should appear sooner or later. Did you get the faction destroyed event?

We can stop rebelling if that whats wanted? tho I think it may just require some adjustment in the campaign_db, traits & ancils for it to work better. I mean, if a general has good command or/and wins you battles gains settlements etc (does good for your faction) yet you never reward him a title (privy seal etc) then by rights you would expect him to rebel? Is it preferable for rebelling characters tobe removed? (I was going to change the "lord of" titles as most do have negative loyalty effects atm)

[wibletg]

yes.. on the popes death, another should be selected from the cardinals. only real way of stopping the papal states is to kill all cardinals/priests etc... even if you take rome, and there is still a college of cardinals the new pope should appear sooner or later. Did you get the faction destroyed event?

We can stop rebelling if that whats wanted? tho I think it may just require some adjustment in the campaign_db, traits & ancils for it to work better. I mean, if a general has good command or/and wins you battles gains settlements etc (does good for your faction) yet you never reward him a title (privy seal etc) then by rights you would expect him to rebel? Is it preferable for rebelling characters tobe removed? (I was going to change the "lord of" titles as most do have negative loyalty effects atm)

Leave the rebelling in, but could you tone it down slightly? It's just when all of your captains (not family members!) rebel at a key time it's a bit of a pain in the backside