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Thread: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

  1. #81

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    This thread operates totally under the assumption that there is no God. I am not suggesting that there is no God - but for the sake of the idea to be discussed within this thread - we shall assume that there is not.

    Right. Now that that's done

    Lets say that you stumble across some 100% bulletproof, completely undeniable evidence that there is no God. You rush to your local paper and eagerly hold your evidence in your hand so that you can spread your magnificent finding. The question is - do you?

    Whether you believe in God or not, surely you can agree that the idea of a compassionate being who will be there to notice us when we're gone, who has created another life where we can be eternal is a comforting idea. Would you shatter that idea, keeping in mind that so many people believe it? That some people even rely on it to function in their day to day? That some people have built their entire lives around that idea?

    Discuss.
    Hi Lazarus i hope you don't think that i am going after your posts intentionally, i just like to chat on these forums because no matter what the iq of the average poster on these forums is higher than those you meet around you in the physical world

    What is your assumption of God? How do you see him personally? I am just interested.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caucasus View Post
    Hi Lazarus i hope you don't think that i am going after your posts intentionally, i just like to chat on these forums because no matter what the iq of the average poster on these forums is higher than those you meet around you in the physical world

    What is your assumption of God? How do you see him personally? I am just interested.
    I'm always good for a chat, and I understand, it's late - not many people posting!

    My personal image of God is what George Carlin called "The Big Electron." To summarize it nice and neatly - it just is. It doesn't reward. It doesn't punish. It doesn't have any real stake or interest in how I live my life. It just is, along side me, and you and everyone else.

    On my bad days though, God is the Christian God - minus the teeth, so to speak. If there is a God, and that God created us purposefully, and that God loves us, and that God is so far above us in intelligence and ability, I refuse to believe that God would be so petty as to damn someone for all eternity (a really long time, when you think about it) for not following his special rules - because as an omnipotent being, God would have to understand the confusion that man would face in the future once men got their hands on the word of God and started twisting it. Condemning man for the faults of others forever sounds unreasonable.

    That's all theory though. I'm still yet to experience anything particularly compelling to suggest there is a God (though I certainly wouldn't say there isn't one).
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
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  3. #83
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Not sure why that would be scary unless god turns out to be as big a dick as he seems to be
    < Is Preparing for Hell

    But realistically hell doesn't make any sense.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; May 23, 2012 at 12:04 PM.
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  4. #84
    Legionem Insanis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
    - Gene Roddenberry

    Never made any sense to me, not during nor after 12 years of Catholic school.

  5. #85
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    I`m a bit late to this (as usual)...

    But if I could prove there was no God, I wouldn`t.

    Simply because I`ve seen too many people who rely on it to get through the difficulty of their lives and I`ve seen too many people do good things by it. Many of you get twisted in a knot because of the bad things done in its name, but fail to see the good done.

    In fact, I believe it would be self indulgent and cruel to do this. I find it bad enough already that some, purely for their own personal angst, do their best to destroy good people`s faith completely with no proof at all, but theories. None of us have that right.

    In fact there are people I`ve spoken to who I could bust their belief because they aren`t great at discussion at all, but I purposefully won`t. It`s not my place to, or anyone else`s.
    Last edited by Humble Warrior; June 01, 2012 at 08:29 PM.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    The question really does boil down to: is happiness more important than objective truth.
    It is far from an easy question, there is much to be said for either course of action and much to be said against both.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  7. #87

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    I would.

    This coming from a Christian.


    The truth is all that matters. By understanding the nature of the truth we will be able to develop further and at greater pace.

    Of course this is a hypothetical question.

    I have had a personal evidence of God. Saw God when I was a 7th grader, His face shines the brightest white light that enveloped His whole figure that nothing could be seen but the light which was coming out from His face. I saw God then after I asked to be allowed to see Christ. I have also, once, seen a miracle as a result of a prayer/personal request.

    Now if hypothetically I could prove God beyond doubt to the world I would too. Of course no one could prove that only at most hint at the existence of God through living with miracles/signs/wonders. Only God can prove Himself to anyone or even everyone but He's not. The only logical reason why most people live with the doubt whether God exists is because God is hiding himself from the knowledge of men. Perhaps it is beneficial to most people to never really know that God exists. Knowledge of God is not for everyone meanign most people just have to settle with faith and hope though personally I believe anyone with GENUINE faith and hope would have personal knowledge of God simply because God exists/living/real. Sadly many if not most believers are not exactly good people or have genuine faith in God. Maybe they feel strongly about God yes but they just don't have that moral attitude that refinement to be worthy to know God. Maybe. God is not a person, God knows everything about us even more than we know ourselves, He's the most intimate 'person' to each one of us. He knows all at any time, what we're thinking, what we're feeling, our tendencies, our values, how we treat anmd judge other people, our every single moment, now then and later. Most people simply think they are relating to God only in prayers or at the church but our everyday's actions and attitude, those are our real prayer. Those are what we really ARE. Our entire life is a prayer to God, 24/7. Not a single one missed by God, even God is aware of each one of our dream. What kind of person we are that is our prayer to God.
    Last edited by Miracles; June 06, 2012 at 08:36 PM.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    If you can accept there is proof there are no leprachans, then by thesame rationale there is no God. If you believe that because you cannot 'disprove' God because somewhere in the universe or outside it there might be a God, that also means you should apply the same logic, you must also believe in any magical creature that anyone can conceive of, using the same logic that supports the belief in God. So, if you dont believe in leprachans, you shouldalso not believe in God and vice versa. Applying the principles of logic, there is no God. People need to deal with that truth and stop wasting time and money on the fantasy of the great sky God.
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  9. #89
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    The trouble with that is there always has been and there always will be people who think they've seen leprechauns and interacted with them, the same can be said about gods.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  10. #90

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Here's the thing though. The existence of God is a plausible explanation for the universe as we know it. The existence of leprechauns... really just raises more questions then answers.

    The fact the universe exists is "proof" that there is God - though it is certainly not definitive. (I put proof in quotes because obviously there are alternatives, though those alternatives do not answer all the questions and until they do, God is still a possibility).
    Last edited by Lazarus; June 07, 2012 at 10:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  11. #91

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    I think the existence of God can only be proven by personal experience. You can't prove there is a God for anyone else, only for yourself. At least, this is the way I think of it. I haven't had any divine experience, or witnessed any miracles in my life, and, as such, I don't believe in God. I suppose there are millions of people who believe simply because their tradition entails it, rather than any inner feeling, but I couldn't do that, myself. I'd question the believability of somebody who claims they've seen God firsthand. But I'm even more irritated by apologists who try to give a logical explanation for faith. Most of the time that ends in failure. Faith is something inherently unprovable.

  12. #92

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizvii View Post
    I think the existence of God can only be proven by personal experience. You can't prove there is a God for anyone else, only for yourself. At least, this is the way I think of it. I haven't had any divine experience, or witnessed any miracles in my life, and, as such, I don't believe in God. I suppose there are millions of people who believe simply because their tradition entails it, rather than any inner feeling, but I couldn't do that, myself. I'd question the believability of somebody who claims they've seen God firsthand. But I'm even more irritated by apologists who try to give a logical explanation for faith. Most of the time that ends in failure. Faith is something inherently unprovable.
    I've never seen Africa with my own eyes, yet I feel it is proven to exist.

    God could prove their existence to me quite easily they choose to do so, and it wouldn't' have to be a personal narrative in my head.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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  13. #93

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I've never seen Africa with my own eyes, yet I feel it is proven to exist.

    God could prove their existence to me quite easily they choose to do so, and it wouldn't' have to be a personal narrative in my head.
    Maybe. However, we are talking about a supernatural entity which, so far, has chosen not to do anything out of the ordinary, or to break the natural order of the world. I was making an assumption based on how God has behaved so far.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I've never seen Africa with my own eyes, yet I feel it is proven to exist.

    God could prove their existence to me quite easily they choose to do so, and it wouldn't' have to be a personal narrative in my head.
    I'm not sure. If some disembodied voice said to me 'I am God, worship me.', and I knew for certain I was not delusional - should I really credit this voice with being the divine being that made the entire universe? If you take for examples the various fictional weird beings in the Marvel Universe, would the Norse Gods be Gods? Would Galactus? Would the Watcher?

    Its quite possible that there are beings more advanced within this universe and others that we would think could do very impressive things, but does that mean they are Gods?

    More importantly, even if there was a God, or some divine being that could appear and say 'Worship me!' I'd say to that being, look, you need to know that the fact you created the universe is not enough for me to 'worship' you. Can we get along? probably. But you saying I have to worship you? That's pretty narcissistic and primitive. Try and do some good around the place and get back to me before I am going to 'worship you'. And why should it matter to a divine being whether people that are less than ants to it 'worship him'. It's like me worrying about whether the insects in my back garden worship me.

    All of it is pretty silly, and when you drill down into it all, it just gets sillier.

    Here's the thing though. The existence of God is a plausible explanation for the universe as we know it. It is not a plausible explanation, or even an explanation. It is a theory without evidence. And you could have an infinite number of theories, also without evidence. I could say, that the universe is immortal and was always here - no one need to make it. I could say that I made the universe. I could say Papa Smurf did. Or Dragons did. Or the great serpent. There is no evidence for any of those things. So if you know there are no leprachans, then you also know there are no God/s or whatever other form of fictional being you are referring to.

    The existence of leprechauns... really just raises more questions then answers.
    But why is that? The existence of a 'God' is no more an explanation than leprachans. The history of leprachans in irish folk lore has about as much to advance it as true as any God.
    Last edited by Simon Cashmere; June 09, 2012 at 01:15 AM.
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  15. #95

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    But why is that? The existence of a 'God' is no more an explanation than leprachans. The history of leprachans in irish folk lore has about as much to advance it as true as any God.
    I'm afraid you miss my point.

    If leprechauns exist... well nothing really changes. Maybe we look at rainbows a little harder and the IRS starts snooping around.

    If God exists - that explains where the universe came from. It answers one of our questions. True - it is a theory and while there's no evidence as such, you have to understand that for something to be able to create existence, it has to be able to operate outside the laws of existence - which makes gathering evidence difficult at best. Look at the alternatives - it all ends up regressing to a point where something "just is" anyway.

    I'm not at all saying there is definitely a God. I'm just saying you can't say there's definitely no God. (Also, it's important to note that when I say God - I'm NOT specifically talking Christian God here. It really could be anything).

    I agree with the rest of your post though.
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    the Church has only improved mankind in history

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  16. #96
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Ok, but what if I say that leprachans made God, and he is employed by them? Can prove it didn't happen....
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  17. #97

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Ok, but what if I say that leprachans made God, and he is employed by them? Can prove it didn't happen....
    It's not my job to prove it didn't happen. It's your job to prove it did happen.

    Just like it's the theists job to prove God (if he wants that to be taken as fact)
    Just like it's the atheists job to prove there is no God (if he wants that to be taken as fact)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    It's not my job to prove it didn't happen. It's your job to prove it did happen.

    Just like it's the theists job to prove God (if he wants that to be taken as fact)
    Just like it's the atheists job to prove there is no God (if he wants that to be taken as fact)
    Not really. You see, if you take the view that because we are stuck here on one planet, and do not know about the rest of the universe or say parallel dimensions, and you use that as your yardstick for determining what is true..then everything is true.

    Because you say, you cannot say that xx does not exist, because, it might exist somewhere in the universe that you have never been. And even if you went to every part of the universe and said, I can prove XX does not exist, here is my videotape of every place in the universe - people would say AHA! This thing exists outside the universe, or this evil demon does not appear on tape or warps the tape.

    It can be taken as a fact that there is no God, because there is no God here or anywhere. If people want to say, no there is a god but he is invisible, or there is a god but he lives in another universe, or in heaven or wherever - then the onus is on them.

    If you make your belief system contingent on what you cannot disprove through the standard of saying, hey, you've not been everywhere else in the universe therefore you do not know - that means everything exists.

    That's right - by that rationale - EVERYTHING - that anyone can think of, must exist, because it cannot be disproven. That is of course non-sensical, but that is the argument that people who believe in God and other similar things use.

    So you take it as a fact that a thing does not exist, until you prove or have cogent evidence to say it does. It works much better that way, I promise. Otherwise your mind is a jumble with every improbable, mystical magical being.
    Last edited by Simon Cashmere; June 09, 2012 at 06:30 AM.
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  19. #99

    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    It can be taken as a fact that there is no God, because there is no God here or anywhere
    Provide proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    If people want to say, no there is a god but he is invisible, or there is a god but he lives in another universe, or in heaven or wherever - then the onus is on them.
    Precisely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: If you could prove there was no God, would you?

    Provide proof.
    There is no God. The proof is, there is no such thing as a 'God' on any part of this planet or the observable universe. That's the 'proof'. To then claim, but God is invisible, or God is somewhere else, has no evidence. The evidence is, there is no God in any place that we can observe, and then to say, but God is in the places we cannot observe, is just supposition - because, by definition, we cannot observe, the places that are unobservable so we do not know what is in them.

    The unobservable or other realms is like saying, here I have a box. Tell me what is in the box. You can have any sort of theory about what is in the box, but you cannot know. Because you cannot know what is in the box (without opening it) does not mean, that you can say, it must be Jesus or God in the box. You are able to say, what is not in the box - ie, you are not in the box, the 15th century is not in the box...but the fact that you do not have the knowledge to say what is in the box, does not mean you can put God or Jesus or heaven in there. You just don't know.

    So if you are to disbelieve in anything for which there is no evidence and is not observable but could exist somewhere theoretically, God comes within that subset. The alternative is, to believe in everything that cannot be disproven, which is well, everything.
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