Tools or no tools?

[Ferdiad]

Of course, the Vanilla game is far better than Romes or Medievals.

[last_name_left]

it really should be an important part of the entire design process (obviously). CA's eventual confession that 'the game design unfortunately doesn't make modding easy' was an admission of earlier failure. It really isn't a proper answer, though it's revealing enough - of how little consideration must have been given to modding throughout the design and production of Warscape [Empire+]. From my perspective that's objectively a serious failing of the engine - and of the design process and aims, the development strategy, the business strategy, etc. It's really missing the boat, isn't it?

Seems the way it is built, a proper toolset is impossible. Obviously there's no going back on that now. So the important thing is surely the next iteration. I had expected the promised "strategy on modding" and associated discussion would have been an important prelude to a design for next iteration, if modding really was as important to CA as they often appear to suggest. It certainly hasn't happened yet.....so...what to think?

Seems the maps are "baked" with various data, like pathfinding(?), making them difficult/impossible to build. Well, did it really take 5 years for CA to realise that made modding them impossible? Either that or the promises of mod-tools and such-like appear quite disingenuous in retrospect. All of which simply presents more evidence of the real priority that CA give to modding.

Anyway, hopefully we've seen the back of Japan!!! And hopefully we see a TotalWar so radically different that most people here will be Fubbing Fubbed, right-off. please can we have something a little d-i-ff-f-e-rr-ee-n-t? Flying pigs? Jason and the Argonauts? Hades? Cavemen? First person view, stuck to your general, riders, delayed/lost orders.......long battles...... manoeuvres......some fun? Anything except more ShinjjiWukkiKukki nonsense/

[Rorarii]

.. in other words, earlier games were just spagetti code, impossible to mod or alter. I'm not surprised, CA's first battle engines were cutting edge - hard to keep structured development in these circumstances.

This one reason why CA's next engine should be developed from the ground up as structured and modable, easy modable - menu driven so any mug (me) can create games. Just look at CIV5 mod tools to see how much CA have been left behind. I would pay $200+ for easy-to-use mod tools. players have more ideas than CA can afford to put into their games, but this fact won't be accepted in a restricted society.

But we've been through this fantasy land before, it won't happen. Expect Rome 2 being very average ..

R

[Dynamo11]

No tools cause they use 3rd party software. If the community collectively pays the massive license fees then we will get tools

[Ferdiad]

Paying for Mod Tools won't happen.

[Raimeken]

Mod tools isn't really a major issue honestly, Medieval 2 and RTW have great mods, play those

There is a reason the Kingdoms Mod Forum always has at least 200 people in it, people still play Medieval II and RTW, but CA has released 4 games in the last 6 years since Medieval II, surely such an outdated game should be shelved, but no, Empire, Napoleon, and Shogun 2 are often the shelved games. That says there is a major issue.

We know Med II and Rome have great mods, but imagine if modders could do with post-Empire games what they could do with Medieval II and Rome. Then all 5 of these games (Rome, Med2, Emp, Nap, Sho2) could be off the shelf and being played actively, and I think it makes CA happy to see people still playing their games from before.

[The Based God]

I want mod tools for Shogun/Napoleon soooo badly. I love mods, even though I myself am no modder. This game would be infinitely better with mod tools/mod support. There's so many great ideas, such as the WWII mod, or the alternate universe WWI mod. I'd love to see complete overhauls like RTW and M2TW has, they're awesome. People BUY games that get modded. Games that can be modded have longer shelf-life, and a much larger community.

[Lord Dakier]

If we had mod tools for Empire I am pretty sure we'd of seen the number of viewers in the ETW category surpass the Medieval 2 one with relative ease.

All the americans would get there Civil war... a good civil war mod that is not some patchwork of the already empire. Many would see there beloved Napoleon in world conquest *god help us...* and we'd see a victorian error mod in all its glory. We have these already but they're potential is severely limited, this is not the mod creators fault as they're good ideas and have good features but they're nothing on what they could be.

[DeValiere]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/21/to...eople-do-this/

I think particularly the second to last paragraph is relevant.

Notwithstanding all the posts on this thread, for my part I am hoping that with the completion of the development and supply of DLC content for the Shogun 2 titles, we may see some documentation from CA at the very least. It is clear that mod tools will not be possible for Empire - S2, but perhaps they will give up more data moving forwards. Given the already known (and stated) issues surrounding the complexity of the warscape engine's design and the use of propriety third party software, I'm giving CA the benefit of the doubt on why mod tools weren't forthcoming, regardless of how they've handled the entire subject - i think we can all agree that it's been poorly handled relations wise. And frankly, a simple dialogue between key modders and CA would easily avoid any inadvertent mix ups with mods versus new DLC or game content direct from CA although I suppose that might mean compromising information CA would like to keep private in relation to upcoming releases.

I wonder to what degree the Steam Workshop will force CA's hand, or at the very least impress upon them the need for modding tools??? Just putting it out there...

[Huberto]

They're better than the latest 3 so that makes sense.

I am typically harsh on CA, but I'm not sure that RTW and M2TW really are better than S2 and NTW. The AI in S2 is better, for sure. The naval battles in NTW are pretty good. The campaign maps are better in recent games...the problem is really mod support imo, and granted it's a big problem.

That said, this is lame from Mike Simpson. He either actually doesn't think much about mod support, wasn't prepared for a media interview, or he was simply misleading the reporter about CA/SEGA's true position.

For every Total War game, there are dozens of ambitious mods. Some, like Europa Barbarorum for Rome, overhaul the game to reflect the period in which it’s set with a scholarly degree of historical accuracy. Others, like the Darth mods, prettify everything with a bundle of graphical updates tweak enemy AI to make the games more challenging.
Despite modders’ enthusiasm for the series, the Total War games have never been especially easy to meddle with. If anything, they’re getting harder to tweak. Is this a deliberate move to help sell more DLC by reducing fan-made alternatives? We asked Creative Assembly studio director Mike Simpson that very question.

“That isn’t the case. If anything, we tend towards: the more mod support, the more DLC you’ll sell,” he said. “It has always been quite difficult to support mods quite well and it’s quite a lot of work, so we’d end up not doing something else.”
The increasing complexity of the Total War engine will have made modding trickier, but it also makes creating user friendly mod tools more difficult on the development side, too. “We’ll do more,” Simpson said. “We will do more.”
We asked Mike Simpson if the team at Creative Assembly have been watching the launch of the Steam Workshop, and the explosion of TF2 and Skyrim mods that have resulted.
“Yeah, we’re looking at that as well. We should be letting people do this,” he said. There’s no philosophical problem with modding at all.”
“I can imagine situations where it might run into trouble if someone started to do a mod that happened to be the thing we were doing in the next game, then we’d be thinking do we really want to encourage that?” he added with a laugh.
The standalone expansion, Total War: Shogun 2 Fall of the Samurai, is coming out on Friday. It’s good. Find out why in our Total War: Shogun 2 Fall of the Samurai review, and have a peek at our ten top tips to help you take back Japan. Hint: use guns. Lots of guns.

[rob-a-dogg]

No tools cause they use 3rd party software. If the community collectively pays the massive license fees then we will get tools

IIRC they use inhouse built tools. They wont release them because of something about not wanting to be responsible about what happens when people use the tools, because they are not complete - only built up as functional/stable as they need from a base level so the CA staff become familiar with the tools and can use them.

I remember posting about it on TWC, I said something along the lines of 'who cares give them to us and we will just figure it out like we have everything else when it comes to modding.' [We being modders, I myself dont mod anything bar for myself based on knowledge collected by others.]

[Dodanodo]

ok, when I started this thread I was more hoping for yes or no anwsers, ok.

after reading some stuff(the interview above for example) I have come to the conclusion that it is not totally impossible for them to make some tools. If they use inhouse selfmade tools, they could release them after some tweaking.
I know a real allround modtool is not going to happen but a uniform editor or maybe a battlemap editor is within the realms of possibilities right?

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

From what I understand, It was never really about whether it was possible or not. I mean, of course it's possible.


It's whether CA (or, more likely, SEGA) was willing to share with us.

[Lionheart11]

Not sure if serious here. Recent EA games haven't been moddable at all.

not only that but EA sell lies, bf designed on pc pfftt!biggest bf ever pfftt!

[Humble Warrior]

“Yeah, we’re looking at that as well. We should be letting people do this,” he said. There’s no philosophical problem with modding at all.”
“I can imagine situations where it might run into trouble if someone started to do a mod that happened to be the thing we were doing in the next game, then we’d be thinking do we really want to encourage that?” he added with a laugh.

Yea, that`s the kind of ambiguity CA and Mike Simpson like to throw around that I don`t like and is unfair. It just keeps the community in constant limbo. They say they want modding tools, then literally they don`t want modding tools. I know he `laughs` well he should since it`s like the wicked witch keeping us in turmoil. Point is there`s clues between those lines. And this is the carrot on a stick crap we have again, and again for literally years.

[daniu]

ok, when I started this thread I was more hoping for yes or no anwsers, ok.

You'll never get a yes/no answer if you start a topic on mod tools.
In fact, you'll have a hard time getting any relevant information amongst all the "YES! Mod tools are needed and it's what made the games of old great and also CA promised us" and "NO! CA are greedy bastards who will never release mod tools and btw it's SEGA's fault too" replies

after reading some stuff(the interview above for example) I have come to the conclusion that it is not totally impossible for them to make some tools. If they use inhouse selfmade tools, they could release them after some tweaking.

Yes, but I doubt the majority of tools they use inhouse is selfmade. They were speaking of a "toolchain" which might mean that they (for example) use a COTS Graphics editor to paint the uniforms, a COTS database client to edit the units' property, and then a selfmade packaging tool to bring the two things together into a deliverable format (which is pretty much what the modding process looks like).

I know a real allround modtool is not going to happen but a uniform editor or maybe a battlemap editor is within the realms of possibilities right?

I still don't know what people expect of a "unit editor"; with a bit of modding knowledge, a graphics editor and the available community modding tools suffice to edit units to your liking.

And yes, a battlemap editor would definitely be very well within the realms of possibilities and most welcome.
This is the kind of software that is very complex and hard to write (especially in your spare time), and we wouldn't even know where to start because the battlemap format isn't even understood properly.
I'd love them to release one if only to hear how the naysayers are going to twist that to their "CA leaves us out in the cold" view... probably with "too little too late".

[Huberto]

Is this a deliberate move to help sell more DLC by reducing fan-made alternatives? We asked Creative Assembly studio director Mike Simpson that very question.

“That isn’t the case. If anything, we tend towards: the more mod support, the more DLC you’ll sell,” he said. “It has always been quite difficult to support mods quite well and it’s quite a lot of work, so we’d end up not doing something else.”

Funny he mentions that. I made a point of buying S2 + DLC on the day CA released those files last year to help modders. Perhaps I wasn't alone.

In fact, you'll have a hard time getting any relevant information amongst all the "YES! Mod tools are needed and it's what made the games of old great and also CA promised us" and "NO! CA are greedy bastards who will never release mod tools and btw it's SEGA's fault too" replies

As you know Daniu, people write stuff like that because they want to register their displeasure at being mislead over and over again on the question of mod support. Something like a campaign or battle map editor would silence the vast majority of this well deserved criticism directed at CA/SEGA.

[Antalis]

Would be nice, if someone of CA or SEGA would say, if there will be full modsupport in the next title. But the problem might be, that they stick with the current engine, because they said that its no revolution/evolution model anymore, like it was before Empire was developed. So maybe there will never be full conversions again for the newer titles.

[last_name_left]

Well, just as with the ever-present idea of mod-tools (which never materialise), there was promised a 'discussion and outlining of comprehensive strategy for modding', or some such. That hasn't materialised either, has it? No strategy, no discussion, no tools. Inspiring stuff.

Surely every single developer uses a combo of in-house and industry standard tools - Photoshop, 3DStudio, whatever. Many games you can mod with free/cheap versions of those programs - and should be encouraged blah blah blah. But what does it really matter when the game is designed such that campaign map is essentially impossible to change, and the 'discussion' hasn't yet happened about a 'comprehensive modding strategy' which itself doesn't appear to exist.......lol. And there's probably some folk expecting a WYSIWIG wonder of a toolkit? Wouldn't that be nice! Not going to happen, obviously. But look how far away it is? It's a shame.

I don't think "time" is really an issue either - TW is over 10 years old. That's long enough to understand (at design stage) that Warscape maps weren't going to be moddable, and to see how much modding can contribute to a franchise. CA were well placed to take advantage of it - after Med2. But, as with the initial release of Empire (with its AI incapable of naval invasion) - they missed the boat - and failed to deliver (although in their marketing CA certainly showed a keen awareness of the importance to their fanbase of moddability - "the most moddable TW yet" was the promise, right? Hmmmm. Like most everything else about Empire it rings hollow. [I'd still like my £35 back actually - lol]

On the SEGA/CA dichotomy - why bother with it? Same thing, for all that it matters.

[Rorarii]

OMG!! I've found the answer to mod-tools! Russia's unicorn software recently released their game Real Warfare 2 : Northern Crusades. Now I don't think this game sold well in the west even though the game was fantastic - similar to TW but with real time strategic and a RPG element etc. If we could convince them of the potential of their engine to be Game Development Tool, then wargamers would have a huge sandbox to play around with!

Only problem is I think 1C and Unicorn will probably want to release a few games in Russia first (maybe the west) before any talk of tools ... we might have to wait unless we could gather enough support to promote this idea.

.. SO how much support do we have for this idea! ... (listens)

.. Listens ..




R