Elder Scrolls: Is the fragmentation of the Empire going to become permanent?

[Manco]

Does it really make a difference or matter if you realize that nobody since the Septims has had divine legitimacy?

Divine legitimacy is what makes it a true Empire in your eyes, right?

I wouldn't care about it in real life of course.
But within the TES universe it does make a difference. The previous Empires in TES were more than a simple political entity comprising of multiple nations, they had an active role in the machinations of the gods (using the term generally here, not just for Aedra) and the interplay between the Space and Time God.
The Medic Empire is an empire, but it's not an Empire if you get my drift. Just like we don't call the First Empire of the Nords the First Empire.
Let's not forget that we're playing a fantasy game where gods have very real and direct influence, the Medic Empire is too detached from the greater events, it's too worldly. As long as they're the centre, it means we'll continue to have the kind of cordoned off plots as in Skyrim where the Civil War and the MQ were all like: " oh yeah, 's happening but let's ignore that for the time being while we're doing our own entirely separate thing here".
Ultimately what makes the distinction for me is their importance within the greater background. The Thalmor are important to it, their goals and beliefs are intertwined with massive amounts of lore, their whole motivation for what they're doing is a play on the actual purpose of Creation itself. The first Three Empires likewise had major effects on the more metaphysical side of things. The Fourth Empire however is completely detached, the Medes might be a political power but are frankly irrelevant to well... everything else. They're the equivalent of a guy being worried about illegal immigrants while Ragnarok is raging around him.

That's true, but has there ever been a TES game where a future conflict was between two factions has been so obviously written?

You could say Oblivion ended on an equally huge cliffhanger, namely the lack of an Imperial heir. That never got dealt with, even in the books they just tell you this and that happened without actually having you experience it.
Personally I think it'll be dealt with in a DLC, though of course it could be the groundwork for a sequel. it just would be the first time they did it like this.

Technically, the divine legitimacy thing makes the Dovahkiin the true Emperor of the Empire. Ergo, maybe there will be an expansion covering this.

Not really.
If the Dovahkin came to/grabbed power, he would indeed have divine connections giving his rule a degree of legitimacy, or rather relevancy in the greater state of affairs. (especially if he's indeed a Shezarrine, or that the whole reenacting the King/Rebel/Observer theory is true).
But it's not because he has these connections that he automatically deserves or gets to be emperor.

[Totalwar14]

Does it really make a difference or matter if you realize that nobody since the Septims has had divine legitimacy?

Divine legitimacy is what makes it a true Empire in your eyes, right?



That's true, but has there ever been a TES game where a future conflict was between two factions has been so obviously written?

I read somewhere on a wiki that TES is based on Eastern mythology and traditions in quite a numbe rof respects. One of the main Eastern concepts of rule was that the Emperor had to hold the Mandate of Heaven in order to be a legitimate ruler. If he did, people would be loyal, his empire would unite, people would love him and all would live in plenty. If he did not, perhaps because he was a usurper or corrupt man then that Mandate would be revoked and Heaven would not extend its protection. War, insurrection, rebellion, invasion, plague, famine, floods and death would fill his Empire. His house would fall to ruin and his house would eventually be put to death.

However, I must admit the Gods planned to solve the gates by sacrificing the last Septim. So, divine punishment is the wrong idea. They've just taken there time getting a replacement since the divines don't have a lot of power in TES. But, the Empire benefited since everyone worshipped those Gods and the Emperor was a Nord which meant everyone could just about see the merits of following this guy.

True, they've always surprized us. So I doubt they'll be the main enemy. But I do think all this will occur in the background and maybe affect future legionary quests. A good comparison would be the Shannara series of fantasy books where a recuring adversary in that is the Alliance but they are really either background or stooges of darker forces. I can see that being what happens to the Thalmor.

[Totalwar14]

I wouldn't
Not really.
If the Dovahkin came to/grabbed power, he would indeed have divine connections giving his rule a degree of legitimacy, or rather relevancy in the greater state of affairs. (especially if he's indeed a Shezarrine, or that the whole reenacting the King/Rebel/Observer theory is true).
But it's not because he has these connections that he automatically deserves or gets to be emperor.

Well, Talos had a Dwarven battle titan...

You have an invincible Dragon you can ride into battle.

Divine blood+awesome warrior+super weapon+army=Emperor of Tamriel.

Possibly an army if you can convince Parthanax or the others to help you. They are children of Akatosh and the Thalmor are denying the existence of a Divine.


edit Whats the re-enactment theory King/Rebel/watcher meant to be about? Whats a Shezzarine?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I agree - Parthurnaax is a pacifist, but Odahviing could probably convince some of his friends to help the humans. Talos was dragonborn as well after all.

[Manco]

A Shezarrine is an avatar of the Space God/Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr.

The King is Auri-El/Alduin/Akatosh, the Rebel is Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and the Observer is Magnus ( though their roles could reverse with every kalpa). Their roles in Creation were "re-enacted" by Hjalti, Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus who then became the divine Talos.
There is a theory that Tullius, Ulfric and the Dovahkin are again re-enacting Creation and will mantle Talos.

But that's getting into all the complicated stuff where we'd then have to account for Talos basically being Lorkhan in a different form, that the Dragonborn are thought to be Akatosh aligned yet defeated Alduin who is and isn't the same as Akatosh with the support of explicitly Shor-aligned heroes in Shor's own realm, the distinction between being an avatar of a god and mantling a god, that various aspects of a god can actually act independently of and in opposition to each other, that Shor is described as having a suspiciously dragon-like scaled mane and being called the Serpent while Alduin is supposed to be the Dragon.

I'm a bit too tired to go into that right now
plus it's been a while since I delved into this stuff and my speculations could very well be wrong.

[SimpleCourage47]

Wow, i thought i had a good grasp on the lore but that just blew me away, if you ever feel up for posting more indepth stuff on the topics you just said i'll be more than happy to blow my mind reading them.

So in the civil war who do you actually support Manco and why ? Including theories and speculations on things we can't find out in game (Possible Hammerfell/Skyrim alliance, second Thalmor war for example.)

[Totalwar14]

A Shezarrine is an avatar of the Space God/Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr.

The King is Auri-El/Alduin/Akatosh, the Rebel is Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr and the Observer is Magnus ( though their roles could reverse with every kalpa). Their roles in Creation were "re-enacted" by Hjalti, Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus who then became the divine Talos.
There is a theory that Tullius, Ulfric and the Dovahkin are again re-enacting Creation and will mantle Talos.

But that's getting into all the complicated stuff where we'd then have to account for Talos basically being Lorkhan in a different form, that the Dragonborn are thought to be Akatosh aligned yet defeated Alduin who is and isn't the same as Akatosh with the support of explicitly Shor-aligned heroes in Shor's own realm, the distinction between being an avatar of a god and mantling a god, that various aspects of a god can actually act independently of and in opposition to each other, that Shor is described as having a suspiciously dragon-like scaled mane and being called the Serpent while Alduin is supposed to be the Dragon.

I'm a bit too tired to go into that right now
plus it's been a while since I delved into this stuff and my speculations could very well be wrong.

But, Alduin ain't Akatosh! Koz Alduin bad! Akatosh gud! That book was pretty funny.

Are you saying I actually KO'd Akatosh!

I suppose that would explain Alduin coming back if Akatosh returned to Mundus via Martin


Do you think they would make Dovahkiin the tenth? Or is that too much? ...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well, I support the Empire because I have knowledge of logistical standpoint and it makes it kind of obvious what would happen. A nation united will stand - Skyrim is a major recruiting ground for the Legion, and they supply goods and connect trade routes between cyrodil and high rock. If the empire is divided - by the loss of skyrim - it will fall. Then the various human nations left - skyrim and hammerfell respectively - will fall fairly easily because they lack a professional army and the necessary logistical capabilities to fight a major war against the organized professional army of the Thalmor

[SimpleCourage47]

Yea your point,while well considered, is wrong simply because hammerfell already beat back the Dominion on its own without any help from anyone else (well save a very small force of legion) and its some 30 years after the great war ? Most nations have recovered somewhat, plus on the point you just made 'logistics', even if Cyrodiil fell to the dominion, they are now surrounded by enemies, also they still need supply lines and such to operate whilst keeping a sizeable force behind in cyrodiil to stop any rebellions and resistance, this coupled with the fact the Dominion would be fighting on extreme climates (Hammerfell hot deserts,Skyrim freezing snow and mountains) against the native people who know their land would stop the Dominion from conquering much.

Ancient Nords drove the Snow elves out of skyrim in acient times they'd do the same in the 4th era as well.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well the Dominion would simply slaughter all the humans, because according to their religion they need to kill all the humans to become immortal again. The Dominion would most likely pick off hammerfell first because hammerfell does not have imperial support anymore and it has been reduced signifigantly in size since the last war.

Granted, Im talking about how the Legion needs ot win in skyrim so it can fight off the Dominion. The Legion would likely win because the Empire would realize the importance of skyrim and send more support against the rebels.

[Halbard]

The Dragonborn will simply FUS RO DAH the Aldmeri Dominion away.
Or call a couple of dragons to aid him. Or a Hero from Sovngarde.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yeah, but as a nord he could always out-drink them.

"All your problems can be solved by drinking" - Deceased Anonymous

[SinerAthin]

Isn't there also the threat of the Akavir?

By the sound of it, they are a threat to all the factions of TES if they decided to strike, both the Empire, Aldmeri Dominion etc.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Aren't akavir another human faction though technically?

[The Mouth]

Nope the Akavir were destroyed by the Tsaesci.

[SimpleCourage47]

Well the Dominion would simply slaughter all the humans, because according to their religion they need to kill all the humans to become immortal again. The Dominion would most likely pick off hammerfell first because hammerfell does not have imperial support anymore and it has been reduced signifigantly in size since the last war.

Granted, Im talking about how the Legion needs ot win in skyrim so it can fight off the Dominion. The Legion would likely win because the Empire would realize the importance of skyrim and send more support against the rebels.

How is Hammerfell reduced in size ? If you mean in terms of territory then its still the same, the beat the dominion, made them sign a peace and they left Hammerfell.

Whether they pick Hammerfell or Skyrim to attack first they will lose, they can't campaign in the lands of the 2 greatest warrior culture in tamriel,hold supply lines and defeat the far superior armies of Hammerfell and skyrim. I mean look back to the Camoran usurper, he went around crushing everyone, he gets to High rock and the Bretons unite against him and defeat him, they do what supposedly better nations and their 'superior' armies could not.

[florin87]

The Dragonborn will simply FUS RO DAH the Aldmeri Dominion away.
Or call a couple of dragons to aid him. Or a Hero from Sovngarde.

anbd who is to say that the dragonborn is not a high elf that supports the thalmor. thing is there is no cannon regarding the dragonborn's race or political affiliation.

[grinder]

I think what should happen next, is that Skyrim secedes completely (Stormcloaks win), and the Empire officially ceases to exist (from then on it's just Cyrodiil or perhaps a Cyrodiil/Highrock Dominion, Federation or whatever). From the remaining factions, not under control of the Aldmeri Dominion an Alliance of equal, sovereign nations could be forged to kick the Elves back to Summerset/Valenwood (could be TES VI). Perhaps with help from the Khajiit, when they find out that they were fooled with the whole moon-thingy.
In the following political vacuum there would be enough room for the writers to expand in any given direction for TES VII and onwards.
Just reuniting the Empire and beating back the Aldmer would be a bit boring I think. Unlikely too, because the Redguards, after what was pretty much a stab in the back from the Empire, would never rejoin if not totally mandatory for survival, and I think a re-empireialized Skyrim would not be too stable and reliable a province either.

[Xoxoman]

Just to say, I even think a coalition of Hammerfell-Skyrim-Argonia will easily beat the Dominion.

[grinder]

I think so too. They fooled the Empire when they were at the brink of collapsing. The Elves can't reproduce as fast as the humans can, so a war of attrition against three very warlike people could bring them down.
The Empire, on the other hand, is undermined with Thalmor agents, that know too much about everything, and has lost too much credibility to lead the counter-attack with signing that ridiculous contract (which contained almost everything they fought against in the first place), alienating the Redguards and pissing of the Nords by bowing down to the Aldmer and forbidding Thalos. They need to go, so that others, with more backbone, can reorganize and defeat the Dominion.