[Open research topic]Knights X,XI centuries.

[AnthoniusII]

The title says it all.
TASK I:
After a certain date "Magyars" will adopt knighthood in their process to their Hungarian kingdom.
We need reference pictures in order to make a knight unit for Magyars.
We need to gather atleast 4 body variations and atleast 6 shield paterns.
TASK II:
We also seek for reference pictures of Early German knights to be used for the HRE.
Remember : 10th-11th centuries not later eras knights.

CAUTION : NO OSPREY IMAGES. WE DO NOT WANT TO HARM TWC.

[Heathen Storm]

Task II:
Honestly, my friends, you got the early German knights perfectly in this picture;


This would be the look of the German Milites before the Crusade period. Of course, you could use round shields in the first tier with kite shields in the second, but the Germans began using the kite shield a lot more commonly during the late 10th/early 11th century. They would soon evolve into the knights of the Crusades that so many know about

Here is a figurine I found, the title says "Ottonian cavalryman, c. 950 AD". However, I'm not completely sure of its historicity because of the helm.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is a statue with the title "Czech knight in 10th century". As the Czech (known in that age as the Duchy of Bohemia) were bordered with the Germans and had much of the same style warfare as them, I believe this is a good image of what the German knights looked like.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AnthoniusII]

But yes that will be the main model.
What we want is pictures that shows shield paterns,helmet colors etc...

[Silesian_Noble]

Wait Anthonius! In TGC time frame (and some time after as well) Magyars did not adopt knighthood. They welcomed numerous knights from HRE which joined their army as heavy lancers, but native Magyars did not convert into western feudal knights, not so early. Making Magyar knights in XIc would be inapriopriate. I remember a debate about it with Dome (Magyar Mod leader and a fellow with a great history knowledge about Hungary) as I wanted to simulate Magyar warfare convertion fom steppic into western feudal in my HotS project (timeframe 1003-1205y) and he said that in such early period it was hardly visible and only in the terminal part of HotS timeframe (so in late XIIc).

[AnthoniusII]

Wait Anthonius! In TGC time frame (and some time after as well) Magyars did not adopt knighthood. They welcomed numerous knights from HRE which joined their army as heavy lancers, but native Magyars did not convert into western feudal knights, not so early. Making Magyar knights in XIc would be inapriopriate. I remember a debate about it with Dome (Magyar Mod leader and a fellow with a great history knowledge about Hungary) as I wanted to simulate Magyar warfare convertion fom steppic into western feudal in my HotS project (timeframe 1003-1205y) and he said that in such early period it was hardly visible and only in the terminal part of HotS timeframe (so in late XIIc).

You are right. I forgot that Csadati said something about German mercenaries!
Thanks that you reminded it to me.
Then the research will be simplier.
The German knights will be added as "King'smen" to Magyars after an event.

[Matthćus]

what ? partial plate ?
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8...ztannenber.jpg

this is clearly late 14th or even 15th century

PS
i think dome was talking about german mercenaries in hungarian service.

[Silesian_Noble]

i think dome was talking about german mercenaries in hungarian service.

I remember that many German Knights entered Hungary together with Gisele of Bavaria who became wife of Stephen - later king of Hungary. Those Bavarian knights (few hundrets or so) were not mercenaries, but loyal feudals who accompanied her, they formed her court and guard. They later took active role alongside Stephen in uniting Hungary (wars with Gyula and Ajtony in the beginning of XIc). So maybe we could make an event - if Hungarian duke marry German Princess - you will get a few unit of German knights and highly limited recruitment of their.

[AnthoniusII]

FliegerAD provided all the historical infp/background for HRE units.
Also for te event he and you SN mention.
That will be a very interesting event.
What we need is few shield and helmet pictures/paterns of that era to produse the German arsenal with the addition of Absinthia's German shield pack.

[Bagatyr]

The topic about the transition of magyare from stepp to european feudal sistem and the rise of hungarian knights institution is really intresting topic .
I agree with silesian nobel that is too early to talk about magyare/hungarian knights not to mention that in the period of Great Conflicts is the time when knighthood was still in natal stage as institution and ideology .And will take final shape to what we know it later in the crusades and after the division of the christian world to orthodox and catolics .

there is a depiction of early hungarian knight from 12 century in ofsprey , but i don't know trustfull is .

[Heathen Storm]

what ? partial plate ?
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8...ztannenber.jpg

this is clearly late 14th or even 15th century

PS
i think dome was talking about german mercenaries in hungarian service.

...I'm honestly not quite sure how on earth I missed that. Woops

[tomySVK]

I found one picture, but I´m not sure if it represent the knight from the late XI century or from the XII century

[AnthoniusII]

Interesting consept.Thank you very much my friend.
We can use the simple shield patern , the armor and the sword scabbard patern!

Thank you very much again!

[tomySVK]

Thank you for your reply and I´m glad I was a little helpful to this epic mod

[Constantius]

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_geibig.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Not precisely your era, a little earlier, but perhaps helpful

[AnthoniusII]

We could use the shield patern!

[Rampante-Cid]

There some pictures, are from osprey so I put the links:

http://www.abload.de/img/01h2kc7.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/02hkjl6.jpg

[AnthoniusII]

@matmohair1
You are a real treasure!

[molashkre]

There some pictures, are from osprey so I put the links:

http://www.abload.de/img/01h2kc7.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/02hkjl6.jpg

Source?

[matmohair1]

& my post got deleted even though it didn't have any osprey images
illustrations from a Russian book printed in the 90's
as well a french illustrations from the 70's

[shikaka]

After a certain date "Magyars" will adopt knighthood in their process to their Hungarian kingdom.

Silesian_Noble is right, knighthood was not adopted by hungarians as an idea during this period.
There were hungarian heavy cavalrymen, but they were not knights, just armored horsemen.

Pre-1070 sources/battle descriptions don't mention western style heavy cavalry charges done by magyars.
(charges in general yes, but that is standard steppe tactic - even carried out by light cavalry - as the last/first - step of the battle)

The majority of the hungarian army were horse archers until about Muhi (1241) even though the amount heavy cavalry was increasing. This is especially true in the period before adopting christianity.



You can see the (I guess made up) banner of a german knight (Hunt) in Cronicae Pictum

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The later banner of the same family (the Hont-Pázmány family is said to be the descendant of 2 german knights: Hunt and Pázmány)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gutkeled family (also descendants of german knights)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't know any more families which were _certainly_ founded by foreign knights, while hungarians in general didn't use coat of arms in this timeframe.