NTW: Kaunitz Project

[Splenyi]

What professional skills do you possess? and what are DEM's? Just surious

EDIT: And also, why did you pick the battle of Lobositz? Is it because it was the first battle of the war? again, I'm just curious

[Primergy]

DEM = Digital Elevation Model = Height data of the Earth, which got scanned by satellites

[mAIOR]

I'm a surveying engineer so mapping is kinda what I do for a living (well, not really since I'm more of a remote sensing guy). Be it as it may, having data in ASCII format is useful since I work around this type of data every single day. DEM stands for Digital Earth Model and it is, as the name implies, a model of the earth given by a regular grid with height information. discovering this at this point is indeed fortunate since I'm developing (as I'm speaking to you :p) a set of tools to convert ASCII files into images as it is needed for my thesis. My idea is, once I have this done and tested, to create a simple UI so that anyone can make their own maps at a click of a button. At least to extract the desired area DEM.

As for the battle of Lobositz, it is because it was the first of the war in Europe ^^




Cheers...

[Megasalexandros]

One solution that i have found in order to make the Seven years war Austrians and not hopelessly wonder around with paintings and other depictions, because the sheer number of them will make the austrians unmakable , is to take the depictions of the Osprey series and make them in models, so to base the Austrian roster on osprey, and iam using osprey because i think the drawings of Osprey are the most easily "makable" in 3d models for empire.

[mAIOR]

Ok guys and girls, after tinkering around for a while, here's a height map for Lobositz:



general view of the area.



Profile view just cause "it's pretty" :p

heights are still unscaled. I'm concerned with the apparent lack of detail but, as you can see from the colour bar, values range from the 100s to the 500s so let's wait and see the end result.

Oh and height is exaggerated. The pic represents an area of roughly 8x8 Km (2,000 meters in game x4 for the scale) and heights are only a couple hundred meters. the program scales things automatically. Still haven't figured out how to rescale things back... Unimportant I guess...



Cheers...

[Splenyi]

This will be great with the historical battle scenarios and we can actually have as much units as we want in historical battles too (as much as our PC's will handle).

Kaunitz, do you think we could add regiment specific units just for these historical battles? I think it would be fun Megasalexandros would probably have made most the Prussian units already (if there are any we need that he didn't make, I could just do a simple retexture), and I hear that he is going to start work on the Austrians too.

EDIT: And I am just going to finish the Hessen Dragoons then I will upload the mod to you

[Notker]

@Spenyi, are specific-different par example musketier regiments for prussians possible for a NTW mod? (sure also for other nations )? Would be only great!

For especially prussian grenadiers i have also a question. Normal grenadier batallions were formed by the grenadier companies of two different infantry regiments. So the (prussian) grenadier units here ingame will also be equipped with two different uniforms? Or its to much/difficult for the engine, for our computers....(or for modding)?

[Kaunitz]

For now I'd really try to keep it simple. We can plunge into historical battles once we're finished with everything else. I don't know and never researched how to do that "unlimited units"-trick, but the idea of controling 40+ units it is not very pleasing to me. However, I can imagine some nice scenarios for smaller affairs which were far more common anyway (e.g. Elmsdorf).

@ Notker: I'm not sure if I understand your first question correctly. You simply want an (uniform-)choice of several regiments for the Prussians? That's of course possbile if Splenyi ports more of megasalexandros Prussians into NTW. However, I think we will first try to getmodels for all units for all major factions, before we add more uniform-variety for a specific faction. Moreover, in multiplayer games, it would be unwise to pick many different uniforms, for it helps your enemy to keep track of your troops. mAIOR has described it already: if all units look the same, you'll never know if you've already seen this or that unit when it pops out of the fog of the war. Is it the same unit that you've seen five minutes ago on the left flank, or is it a "new" unit? This actually corresponds to the claim of the mod (realism from a general's point of view, not from an uniformologists' point of view). For the most part, engagements happen at ranges at which one would only be able to tell the colour of the coat of your enemies, but not individual regimental signs. Anyway, we can leave the decision up to the players. For the habsburg army, e.g. I'd like to see hungarian infantry regiments as well as german infantry. But the priorities are clear: Once everything else is finished, we can think about more uniforms and historical scnarios. But that's rather far away.

As for grenadiers: As far as I know it's not possible, at least not in a systematic manner, so that the companies of the different regiments form units within the converged battalion. One can mix different uniforms into a regiment, but they will be mixed up randomly, which doesn't look nice.

@megasalexandros: The Osprey Austrians? If they're those I can also find in Haythornthwaites book (painted by Younghusband) I'm a bit sceptical. For equipment details they're okay, but for the overall impression, I'd stick to contemporary material (I threaten you with my help). The question is if we stick to the early SYW Autrians (relatively long coats, see Hyacinth de la Pegnas paintings) or the later SYW Austrians with their shorter and simpler coats (as seen in the Albertina Handschrift, and also here)

[Whaler99]

I would advise against the historical regiment thing based on personal preference. One of the things about this mod which caught my eye besides the sound and mechanics, was the custom unit cards and a uncluttered and streamlined approach to unit selection. I love the fact there is only 10 or so unit cards per nation. It provides no value to the game to have 18 different line regiments to select from.

I'm glad units are being revised, because they needed on overhaul (unless you choose to keep at a Napoleanic them), but to see progress being held up by adding historical regiments would be a shame in my opinion.

[Megasalexandros]

hhmm thats why i was always reluctant in using paintings, basicly i cant use paintings to create especially edit , proper models because as you can see the paintings are not portraying exactly proportionate or realistic looking troopers, they have the particular painting style which cannot be represented in a 3d model(narrow bodies big heads etc) ,you can get an impression but thats it, i cannot see how the overall impression of a painting can be represented in an empire 3d model and i also think that it wouldnt look good if it was possible neither "realistic" strictly speaking, but of course thats a matter of taste ,for eg the Osprey depictions are more "realistic" in proportionate terms more natural and less artistic looking if you get my meaning.
Also giving the fact that there were numerous light Hungarian troops in the Austrian army , i should choose 2 or 3 basic types at least in the beginning, the troopers of the austrians must not be too different from the Prussian ones.

But i will have to get over with the early Prussians first iam a bit off right now cause of some small problems i came upon.
When iam about to make the Austrians i will make the roster and post it in a new thread, as wip .
I will also make the early Austrians, but iam not sure if iam to make the 7years war Austrians first or the early Austrians

[Splenyi]

I would advise against the historical regiment thing based on personal preference. One of the things about this mod which caught my eye besides the sound and mechanics, was the custom unit cards and a uncluttered and streamlined approach to unit selection. I love the fact there is only 10 or so unit cards per nation. It provides no value to the game to have 18 different line regiments to select from.

I'm glad units are being revised, because they needed on overhaul (unless you choose to keep at a Napoleanic them), but to see progress being held up by adding historical regiments would be a shame in my opinion.

I meant to have the individual regiments just for historical battle use, not for custom or multiplayer battles. But I guess we are a while off from having historical battles.

[Prince of Essling]

@megasalexandros: The Osprey Austrians? If they're those I can also find in Haythornthwaites book (painted by Younghusband) I'm a bit sceptical. For equipment details they're okay, but for the overall impression, I'd stick to contemporary material (I threaten you with my help). The question is if we stick to the early SYW Autrians (relatively long coats, see Hyacinth de la Pegnas paintings) or the later SYW Austrians with their shorter and simpler coats (as seen in the Albertina Handschrift, and also here)

You may find these images on the Austrians from "Brauerbogen 7 Jahrigen Krieg 1756-1763" of use

[Kaunitz]

@ megasalexandros:

Sure paintings are painted and stay within the limits of a special mode of the medium and style of the epoch. But that’s also true for Ospreys paintings. Realism depends on what you’re looking for. The proportions and the whole looks of the Osprey habsburg soldiers are a very “idealized”, even more so than in period art I would say. They look like shop-window-dummys, representing the stereoytpe soldier of the (19th &) 20th century. We see young men (not boys or elderly men) with lots of determination in their expression, all healthy, muscly, confident, well equipped, with perfectly clean uniforms that fit and are complete. You get the impression that these brilliant men are wearing high quality uniforms as a symbol of their exemplary character. In fact, unifroms were cheap mass ware, with fake button holes and fake turn-ups. So the Osprey depictions of the habsburg soldiers are not realistic either. They're extremely idealistic - just like any other painting.

Therefore, in terms of overall authenticity and "immersion", I still prefer period art. I prefer my little avatar with his very slight build, who does not have the determined look and the super-proper uniform, and doesn’t fit into modern ideals of soldery/manlihood. Again, if anything the paintings show us, that 18th century ideals differed very much from 19th and 20th century ideals. The latter totally lacks the galant, buoyant and light 18th century “air”. Also in period art, you won't a lot of the scoundrels that a 18th century army would have been formed of, and you don't see very young soldiers. But if I had to choose between 19/20th century ideals dressed up as 18th century (the strong Osprey-macho-soldier in idealized uniforms) and 18th century ideals in authentic dress (cute little men with chubby cheeks that we can see on paintings and uniform plates), I’d prefer the latter. A 21st century soldier/warrior-stereotype, by the way, can be seen at the top of our screens if we scroll up a bit.

In terms of modelling and texturing, I don't think that one must refrain from using period art for inspiration and to capture the "feeling" of the epoch. The uniforms of the habsburg soldiers in period paintings are actually very detailed and well observed (cut, colours, etc.). The only difference to the Osprey paintings is that the period paintings also show us some realistic variance in physique and build of the soldiers, and some ill-fitting, faded uniforms. So Ospreys’ ideal soldier might be more practical in terms of uniform-modelling, but it’s not even a bit more realistic than my current avatar. The problem is that ETW/NTW models all resemble the muscley-physique and that they don't have any variation. For texturing, I think there’s no reason to distrust period art as it shows dirty and faded uniforms even though it gives us ideal images. In this respect, it's more “honest” than the Osprey paintings.

I also got the militaria book right now and feel explicitly confirmed in my fight against the 1786-tricorns. The book clearly states that the hats stem from the later 18th century and have nothinf in common with mid-century tricorns.

@ Prince of Essling: Thanks! I need to make another rep-session soon.

@ Splenyi: Any news on the uploading front? I can't wait to see some of the new models.

[Splenyi]

I'll upload them soon, I'm just having another shot at the Prussian textures. Here's my efforts so far:



Apologies for the bad quality picture, TWC won't let me upload anything better.

I gave the undercoat and breeches a beige white, and made the gaiters more brown/black then just pure black like in the original texture, and the coat is completely new and recoloured. It's kind of hard to see in this crappy screenshot, but I'll give you the new pack soon

EDIT: Uploading mod now for you Kaunitz

[Megasalexandros]

@ megasalexandros:

Sure paintings are painted and stay within the limits of a special mode of the medium and style of the epoch. But that’s also true for Ospreys paintings. Realism depends on what you’re looking for. The proportions and the whole looks of the Osprey habsburg soldiers are a very “idealized”, even more so than in period art I would say. They look like shop-window-dummys, representing the stereoytpe soldier of the (19th &) 20th century. We see young men (not boys or elderly men) with lots of determination in their expression, all healthy, muscly, confident, well equipped, with perfectly clean uniforms that fit and are complete. You get the impression that these brilliant men are wearing high quality uniforms as a symbol of their exemplary character. In fact, unifroms were cheap mass ware, with fake button holes and fake turn-ups. So the Osprey depictions of the habsburg soldiers are not realistic either. They're extremely idealistic - just like any other painting.

Therefore, in terms of overall authenticity and "immersion", I still prefer period art. I prefer my little avatar with his very slight build, who does not have the determined look and the super-proper uniform, and doesn’t fit into modern ideals of soldery/manlihood. Again, if anything the paintings show us, that 18th century ideals differed very much from 19th and 20th century ideals. The latter totally lacks the galant, buoyant and light 18th century “air”. Also in period art, you won't a lot of the scoundrels that a 18th century army would have been formed of, and you don't see very young soldiers. But if I had to choose between 19/20th century ideals dressed up as 18th century (the strong Osprey-macho-soldier in idealized uniforms) and 18th century ideals in authentic dress (cute little men with chubby cheeks that we can see on paintings and uniform plates), I’d prefer the latter. A 21st century soldier/warrior-stereotype, by the way, can be seen at the top of our screens if we scroll up a bit.

In terms of modelling and texturing, I don't think that one must refrain from using period art for inspiration and to capture the "feeling" of the epoch. The uniforms of the habsburg soldiers in period paintings are actually very detailed and well observed (cut, colours, etc.). The only difference to the Osprey paintings is that the period paintings also show us some realistic variance in physique and build of the soldiers, and some ill-fitting, faded uniforms. So Ospreys’ ideal soldier might be more practical in terms of uniform-modelling, but it’s not even a bit more realistic than my current avatar. The problem is that ETW/NTW models all resemble the muscley-physique and that they don't have any variation. For texturing, I think there’s no reason to distrust period art as it shows dirty and faded uniforms even though it gives us ideal images. In this respect, it's more “honest” than the Osprey paintings.

I also got the militaria book right now and feel explicitly confirmed in my fight against the 1786-tricorns. The book clearly states that the hats stem from the later 18th century and have nothinf in common with mid-century tricorns.

@ Prince of Essling: Thanks! I need to make another rep-session soon.

@ Splenyi: Any news on the uploading front? I can't wait to see some of the new models.

Wow you are indeed to passionate.
Let me explain, i was talking about body proportions, the style that the 18th century paintings are depicting, is not a "natural" one in terms of body proportions, it is artistic, thats what i meant, i agree that not all of the soldiers would have been muscled etc, in fact most of them wouldnt cause you cannot retain a musled body type when you march so much, but even what you have described does not
eg
I would use this 18th century depictions for the creation of empire models, but not the other oil canvas depictions for the obvious reasons, as i would not have used contemporary art material to depict a medieval knights, for also obvious reasons.
You also understand that in empire you must take a characteristic example from the regiment you are trying to create, you will use the proper uniform ,you will use the average soldierly looking type.
I dont understand what you mean when you say fake trubacks and button holes, the models uses textures so essentially everything is fake , you are only creating the illusion of a button hole etc.
As for the rest of your explanation, eg the paintings are representing proper looking uniforms but realisticly looking body types and many of what you said is interesting but irrelevant in terms of model creation and proper depiction of a unit that uses at maximum 2 uniform cuts per unit.
Buttom line, you deem the paintings realistic, i cant understand in which terms you deem them realistic, in uniforms you said that they should have tattered uniforms, badly made etc, but it is obvious that in most paintings thats not the case, also you say that the proportion differences in the paitings are realistic, yes depicting differences in physique is realistic but barely possible in empire, and no the paintings are not depicting realistic physiques, they are artistic, at least in my opinion and judging physiques from the real world, in contrast the more recent paintings ,artists, they might depict more "idealized" soldiers ,(not always in my opinion) with proper uniforms nice physiques etc, but also more realistic in terms of proportions and physique, and thats what i would have gone for ,for the creation of empire models, also i cannot understand how a soldier that will look like your avatar , could be created in an empire model , l really dont.
Anyway ,no matter how strange that might sound to you, what you've said about the osprey depictions are further convincing me to use them, and affirm my opinions about them, cause i wouldnt go for unkown variations that i might guess would have been true for contemporary soldiers, like banded heads, tattered gaiters , wrongly made uniforms, missing buttons , wrong colours(?), but for the proper looking unit, with the proper looking uniform.

I deem what prince Essling posted about the austrians really usable , and iam curious really really curious how would you have made a soldier for empire if you got your hands on modeling, i would be interested to see how you would manage to capture the ,artistic style into an empire model.



EDIT The hats of PG are not from 1788 bu from the late period of the SYW but i further modified them for earlier periods.

[Kaunitz]

Well if I had the ability to model, I'd curse CA even more. With a Schwarzenegger base model such as this:



modeling seems kind of pointless. Therefore I appreciate your effors even more and what you have achieved so far is really outstanding. But one can never ever make this model look elegant. It's shoulders are ridicolous, it's upper legs are treetrunks, the neck is strange, the chest is a bunker. Horrible! (NTW models seem to be much better in terms of proportions...?)

[Ziuk]

How did you generate this view of terrain? Can you write name of software?

[Megasalexandros]

Hmm you might be right, about the proportions i mean, the shoulders are indeed quite wide, but in general the body doesnt strike me as horrible.
But personally i wouldnt attempt to make modifications of that kind unless if i had a very particular goal.
I dont know about the NTW models, they could be good in terms of proportions, i liked them quite much , eventhough i would have liked the models to have more details and equipment parts, eg , no swords
The problem is that i cant unpack the Mesh files from Napoleon total war.

[Notker]

Therefore I appreciate your effors even more and what you have achieved so far is really outstanding. But one can never ever make this model look elegant. It's shoulders are ridicolous, it's upper legs are treetrunks, the neck is strange, the chest is a bunker. Horrible! (NTW models seem to be much better in terms of proportions...?)

I think exactly the same. There must not be 1950's or 1980's shoulderpads in 1750's 'tunics'.

[mAIOR]

Hello. just popped in to say I've been absent in a while due to rl constrains. I don't know when I can finish the map but I will. Now that I finished converting ASCII grids into images, I have a lot of work to do for my thesis and it might be a couple of weeks before I can spend some time on the maps again. It has not been forgotten nor has my will to do this decreased. Nothing of the sort. As soon as I can get back to this I'll do so ASAP.



Cheers...