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Thread: NTW: Kaunitz Project

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    Kaunitz's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default NTW: Kaunitz Project


    HOPEFULLY TO BE FEATURING MEGASALEXANDROS' "Preußens Gloria" AND WANGRIN'S "Nec Pluribus Impar" MODELS SOON

    The Kaunitz Project is changing over from the ETW engine (which has proved to be too unstable for multiplayer games) to the NTW engine.

    The KP is a realism/simulation mod geared to multiplayer battles. The aim of the mod is not to get the colour of uniform buttons correct, but rather to offer realism from a general's point of view, putting emphasis on reconnaissance, manoevre, terrain, timing, morale, troop types (in contrast to unrealistic differences between troop stats of individual regiments or "nationalities"). The mod is therefore based on a 4:1 ground- and troop-scale.

    The KP will be set in the mid 18th century (predominantly: third Silesian War/Seven Years War). Hopefully we'll be able to port the corresponding models and skins (wangrin's "Nec Pluribus Impar" for France, megasalexandros' "Preußens Gloria" for Prussia) from ETW to NTW. Because of the models available, the first full version will probably feature the factions Prussia (+ British-Hannoverian support) and France (without the Kur-Saxons or the Reichsarmee).

    SOME KEY CHANGES OF THE MOD
    (a list for new players, all points will be explained in more detail as soon as I find the time)















    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    • 4:1 scale for troops and ground, 1:1 scale for time (imagine all soldiers to be 4 times smaller and 4 times more numerous; this leads to "extremely" slow but realistic - according to scale - movement of units)
    • "fatigue" stands for "cohesion". It can be lost and regained very quickly. Being low on cohesion (tired/very tired/exhausted) will give you severe morale and accuracy penalties. Running is a "very" bad idea. With cavalry, you have to decide the point at which to start the galopp (it's a matter of time=being exposed to musketry versus cohesion/morale)
    • no squares - to defend against cavalry, form a deep square formation so that your unit can turn quickly in order to get shots on attacking cavalry
    • more realistic casualty figures (remember one hit is four casualties, according to the scale)
    • realistic frontages for battalions and (double-)squadrons
    • a quite creative solution for bayonet charges (on the last 20 ingame meters, an attacking infantry unit will recover fatigue=cohesion very quickly)
    • A detection system (works in a similar way to NTW3). However, since it is a detection system meant to represent the delay of orders and information, not a line of sight system, the detection ranges for most troops are set very low (usually 65 ingame meters in the open). The general's unit has a unique detection range of 100
    • Battle fatigue is represented by "experience". This means that experience in this mod is actually a bad thing that gives you mali. Especially with cavalry, you have to decide whether you prefer to shatter a routing enemy and thereby blow your horses, or whether you stay back.
    • realistically restricted arcs of fire - positioning is important!
    • morale is, in general, MUCH more important than in vanilla NTW
    • more intensive terrain effects, especially for cavalry
    • Artillery reworked
    • (cavalry casualties in melees are still by FAR too high - there's nothing I can do against that)



    DOWNLOAD LINK FOR THE PREVIEW VERSION

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://www.mediafire.com/?zjef9s2gjbs46fa

    (Disable all other mods, put the unzipped pack into your data-folder and add the line "mod KP_NTW_1a.pack;" to your script file. Then start a custom battle)
    Please delete the preset "starting" armies!
    Please use medium sized units (line infantry should have a strength of 140, grenadiers 120, etc.). Using other sizes will change the game experience





    CONTRIBUTORS AND TEAM

    Kaunitz (meachanics, concept, sounds, artwork)
    Splenyi (model-porter from ETW to NTW, localisation file)
    Cangry ("effect guy" / upcoming smoke)
    Megasalexandros (Preußens Gloria models)
    Wangrin (Nec Pluribus Impar models)
    Didz (the scientific pillar)

    List of extraordinarily motivating and helpful people, listed by the point in time that they've taken a big interest in the mod. Thank you for your all your support, time and constructive feedback!

    Didz
    TiFlo
    Dee Jay
    saddletank
    bloody bill
    Cangry
    Filip von Zietek
    mAIOR
    Splenyi

    BATTLE REPORTS / VIDEOS
    (still mostly of the ETW-version of the mod)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Battle versus Philipp von Zietek with the NTW-version of the mod:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5#post11317835 (part I)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0#post11325500 (part II)


    Some impressions from a MP-battle:

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyfG...5046wg&index=5
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u01hk...5046wg&index=4

    Mp-Battle:
    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s3cg...5046wg&index=3
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7y31...5046wg&index=2

    MP-battle:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YNist-Bt_w

    Here is a commentary by the user mAIOR on a battle he fought against the AI (version: kaunitzmp6). (7 parts)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





















    Another battle report (versus AI) by mAIOR (version: kaunitzmp6). 10 parts!



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 











































    Here is an introduction to the mod by the user Didz, who explains the basics of the mod (4:1 scale) in a battle against the AI. The record is based on an earlier version of the mod (27th may 2011), but the design philosophy and the explained concepts are still valid. (5 parts)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





















    My battle report of one of my first multiplayer games versus "bloody bill". One of my most interesting battles so far (based on an earlier version of the mod).






    A battle report (including a video) of one of my battles against the user Cangry





    CONTEMPORARY ART


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A small collection of contemporary art refering to the third silesian war or the War of the Austrian Succession.





































































































    Extract of Canalettos painting of Schloss Schönbrunn (1759/1760), showing two soldiers:


    Recrutation scenes in the habsburg monarchy (judging from uniforms: later 18th century; not neccessarily 7YW-timeframe): http://www.auction.de/_scripts/aucti...817&language=e




    SOURCES


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here is the list of articles and books that I've drawn on for this mod (apart from Didz's invaluable help, that is).

    Note that there are a lot of titles in the list that touch on the American Revolution and Napoleonic warfare rather than the third Silesian War. This is simply due to the fact that the latter conflicts seem to have attracted much more (recent) scholarly interest, especially when we talk about the micro-historical approach which is necessary if you want to model game mechanisms. There are also articles in it that don't deal with warfare/"mechanics" per se. I have not listed the basic resources such as the "Grosser Generalstab" or the kronoskaf Seven Years War homepage. Titles that have proved to be very helpful from a modding perspective (because of their micro-approach and their emphasis on first hand accounts) are marked in red.

    Rory Muir, Tactics and the Experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon (New Haven / London 2000).
    Michael Hochedlinger, Austria's Wars of Emergence 1683-1797 (Modern Wars in Perspective, London u.a. 2003).
    Matthew H. Spring, With Zeal and with Bayonets Only. The British Army on Campaign in North America, 1775-1783 (Campaigns and Commanders 19, Norman 2008).
    Brent Nosworthy, Battle Tactics of Napoleon and his Enemies (London 1995).
    Christopher Duffy, The Military Experience in the Age of Reason (London/New York 1987).
    Franz A. J. Szabo, The Seven Years War in Europe 1756-1763 (Modern Wars in Perspective, Harlow u.a. 2008).
    Claus Telp, The Evolution of Operational Art 1740-1813. From Frederick the Great to Napoleon (Cass Series: Military History and Policy, London/New York 2005).
    Christopher Duffy, Prussia's Glory. Rossbach and Leuthen 1757 (Chicago 2003).
    Thomas J. McGuire, The Philadelphia Campaign (2 Volumes, Mechanicsburg 2007).
    George Nafziger, Imperial Bayonets. Tactics of the Napoleonic Battery, Battalion and Brigade as Found in Contemporary Regulations (London/Mechanicsburg 1996).
    Sascha Möbius, Mehr Angst vor dem Offizier als vor dem Feind? Eine mentalitätsgeschichtliche Studie zur preußischen Taktik im Siebenjährigen Krieg (Saarbrücken 2007).
    Sascha Möbius, Beschleunigung von militärischen Bewegungen im 18. Jahrhundert am Beispiel der preußischen Taktik in den schlesischen Kriegen. In: Hartmut Heller (Hg.), Gemessene Zeit - gefühlte Zeit. Tendenzen der Beschleunigung, Verlangsamung und subjektiven Zeitempfindens (Münster/Hamburg/Berlin 2006) 235-265. (available online: http://www.matrei.ruso.at/dokumente/04_zeit_moebius.pdf)
    Sven Externbrink, "Que l'homme est cruel et méchant!" Wahrnehmung von Krieg und Gewalt durch französische Offiziere im Siebenjährigen Krieg. In: Historische Mitteilungen der Ranke-Gesellschaft 18 (2005) 44-57.
    Marian Füssel, Das Undarstellbare darstellen. Das Bild der Schlacht im 18. Jahrhundert am Beispiel Zorndorf (1758). In: Birgit Emich, Gabriela Signori (Hg.), Kriegs/Bilder in Mittelalter und Früher Neuzeit (Zeitschrift für historische Forschung Beiheft 42, Berlin 2009) 317-349.
    Marian Füssel, Der Wert der Dinge. Materielle Kultur in soldatischen Selbstzeugnissen des Siebenjährigen Krieges. In: Militär und Gesellschaft in der Frühen Neuzeit 13/1 (2009) 104-121. (available online: http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2009/3075/pdf/mgfn13_01.pdf)
    Marian Füssel, Die Aasgeier des Schlachtfeldes. Kosaken und Kalmücken als russische Irreguläre während des Siebenjährigen Krieges. In: Stig Förster, Christian Jansen, Günther Kronenbitter (Hg.), Rückkehr der Condottieri? Krieg und Militär zwischem staatlichem Monopol und Privatisierung: Von der Antike bis zur Gegenwart (Krieg in der Geschichte 57, Paderborn u.a. 2010) 141-152.
    Alexander Balisch, Die Entstehung des Exerzierreglements von 1749. Ein Kapitel der Militärreform von 1748/49. In: Mitteilungen des österreichischen Staatsarchivs 27 (1974) 170-194.
    As a whole: Bd. 3 of the "Schriften des heeresgeschichtlichen Museums in Wien": Maria Theresia. Beiträge zur Geschichte des Heerwesens ihrer Zeit (Graz/Wien/Köln 1967).
    Johannes Kunisch, Der kleine Krieg. Studien zum Heerwesen des Absolutismus (Wiesbaden 1973).
    Marcus von Salisch, Treue Deserteure. Das kursächsische Militär und der Siebenjährige Krieg (Mlitärgeschichtliche Studien 41, München 2009). (very good for the Saxon/Polish army and the Prina "campaign"!)
    Reed Browning, The War of the Austrian Succession (New York 1993).
    several articles in: Wolfgang Adam, Holger Dainat (Hg.), "Krieg ist mein Lied". Der Siebenjährige Krieg in den zeitgenössischen Medien (Schriften des Gleimhauses Halberstadt 5, Göttingen 2007). (from a military perspective especially the article by Bernhard Jahn about the converse interpretations of the battle of Lobositz (which was a draw, really *g*).)
    Ewa Anklam, "Wissen nach Augenmaaß". Praktiken der Beobachtung und Berichterstattung während des Siebenjährigen Krieges (1756-1763) (Berlin 2007).
    Manfred Schort, Politik und Propaganda. Der Siebenjährige Krieg in den zeitgenössischen Flugschriften (Frankfurt a. M. u. a. 2006).
    Eike Erdel, Das Gefecht bei Emsdorf am 16. Juli 1760 (available online: http://www.vhghessen.de/inhalt/zhg/Z...%20Emsdorf.pdf)
    Martin Rink, Vom "Partheygänger" zum Partisanen. Die Konzeption des kleinen Krieges in Preussen 1740-1813 (Frankfurt am Main 1999).


    An interesting page for maps is this project of the Staatsarchiv Marburg which is digitalizing the Wilhelmshöher Kriegskarten (a huge collection of ca. 3000 battle maps, started in 1700). Although the resolution is not too good, I find it all very rich and interesting. Lots of the maps are decorated with rocailles and other ornaments. You can also find maps of encampments and smaller actions. Volume/Band 24, 25 & 26 will lead you to (mostly contemporary) maps of the Seven Years' War, but the collection is also famous for its Hessian maps of the American War of Independence (28 & 29).






    ADDITIONAL MATERIAL


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A collection of the expertises written by the user Didz (needs to be updated!)




    Current unit cards (will be implemented as soon as the models work)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 









    Good examples of mid 18th century military music

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Tippencanoe Ancient Fife and Drum Crops (awesome! buy their CD on itunes...40 years in the familiy...)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csRmf2D4Tzs

    Marlborough s'en va-t-en guerre!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqRpPMOaMIA

    Reenactors of Hessian soldiers singing "Prinz Eugen der edle Ritter" (strange they're actually singing a praise on a habsburg general )
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-XE56iJ6Q









    BANNERS & "FAN CORNER"




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    Also feel free to join the "ETW: Kaunitz Project" steam group. Don't be irritated by the "ETW" label!


    Last edited by Kaunitz; May 04, 2013 at 12:55 PM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  2. #2
    Andre J. Jassoch's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Wunderbar!!!

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    Notker's Avatar Sukauto
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Must also shout 'Wunderbar'

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    bloody bill's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Good to see this my friend. Saturday looking good?

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    Kaunitz's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Yes, sure. I hope NTW doesn't give me the "cannot connect to host".
    The version won't be perfect yet, and it can't be perfect. I need someone to play in order to get the cohesion and musketry balance right (impossible with the AI - it always runs and wastes ammunition and cohesion by engaging in long range fire...)

    I've been very dutiful today. Perhaps I can even upload it tomorrow.

    The preview version will feature only Austria and France, both using vanilla NTW models. Each faction gets (number of men/troopers, detection range for wood/open, morale):
    1 coy skirmishers (20, 15/65, 22) (good stamina=discipline, accurate even with low cohesion)
    1 btn line infantry (140, 10/65, 31)
    1 btn converged grenadiers (120, 10/65, 39) (good stamina=discipline)
    2 sqn cuirassiers (60, 10/65, ca. 36) (good stamina=discipline)
    2 sqn dragoons (60, 10/65, ca. 32)
    hussars (50, 10/75, 26)
    General (2, 10/100)
    12pdr (2 gun models, 10/65) (Since NTWs artillery only seems to know two types of ammunition, I went for roundshot and heavy canister, not light canister. I might create some kind of mixture of heavy/light canister in the future to give the battery more point-blank-mid range punch)
    Walking units will now loose cohesion (as debated in the old thread) and units will loose cohesion slowlier when engaged in fire combat. Both, musketry and the cohesion/fatgiue effects still need to be finetuned and calibrated. Also the double-squadron sized cavalry units need to be tested online (I fear that enagagements in which cavalry is involved take even longer now ). The effects of fatigue (=experience) set in a bit slowlier but are more intensive.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 05, 2012 at 03:02 PM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

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    bloody bill's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Sounds good buddy. I have some guys ready to test for you and give some good mp feed back as soon as your ready.

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    mAIOR's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaunitz View Post
    Yes, sure. I hope NTW doesn't give me the "cannot connect to host".
    The version won't be perfect yet, and it can't be perfect. I need someone to play in order to get the cohesion and musketry balance right (impossible with the AI - it always runs and wastes ammunition and cohesion by engaging in long range fire...)

    I've been very dutiful today. Perhaps I can even upload it tomorrow.

    The preview version will feature only Austria and France, both using vanilla NTW models. Each faction gets (number of men/troopers, detection range for wood/open, morale):
    1 coy skirmishers (20, 15/65, 22) (good stamina=discipline, accurate even with low cohesion)
    1 btn line infantry (140, 10/65, 31)
    1 btn converged grenadiers (120, 10/65, 39) (good stamina=discipline)
    2 sqn cuirassiers (60, 10/65, ca. 36) (good stamina=discipline)
    2 sqn dragoons (60, 10/65, ca. 32)
    hussars (50, 10/75, 26)
    General (2, 10/100)
    12pdr (2 gun models, 10/65) (Since NTWs artillery only seems to know two types of ammunition, I went for roundshot and heavy canister, not light canister. I might create some kind of mixture of heavy/light canister in the future to give the battery more point-blank-mid range punch)
    Walking units will now loose cohesion (as debated in the old thread) and units will loose cohesion slowlier when engaged in fire combat. Both, musketry and the cohesion/fatgiue effects still need to be finetuned and calibrated. Also the double-squadron sized cavalry units need to be tested online (I fear that enagagements in which cavalry is involved take even longer now ). The effects of fatigue (=experience) set in a bit slowlier but are more intensive.
    Sounds good. Shame about the artillery though but heavy cannister is the way to go from my way of thinking. Anyway, I'm not around for testing this weekend but I'll be around next week. maybe wednesday night? I'll switch my weekly games with FVZ from NTW3 to this and we'll see how it goes. Are you also giving the single squadron option Kaunitz? Good list btw.



    Cheers...


  8. #8
    Kaunitz's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    The pack (80MB) is being uploaded right now and will be added to the main post in about half an hour.

    The single sqns will come with the first proper NTW version of the KP, not with this preview version.

    To all the KP-experts: Please remember that I've changed quite a lot of stuff concerning cohesion and fatigue, all of which can only be balanced by playing online. Therefore I'm sure that this version will actually be less balanced than the previous version for ETW. Also, because of the increased morale and fatigue effects, and because of the more numerous terrain on NTW maps, the AI will even be less of a challenge if compared to the previous versions.

    I need feedback on almost everything:

    1) Cohesion loss for walking units okay? Keep in mind that we need to calibrate it around musket range as we want to make it less easy for units to get close.
    2) Morale and accuracy penalties for units with low cohesion okay?
    3) Cohesion loss for engaging in fire combat okay?
    4) Bigger cavalry squadrons okay?
    5) Musket sounds okay? (I still need to work on those rifle sounds...)
    6) Do you like the artillery-men-bowling? I'm not sure yet. It looks ridiculous but the effect might be okay. I don't even know if one can get rid of it.
    (The loading screen is still preliminary and I haven't tinkered with any other aesthetic goodies and videos yet)

    Whoever has time and leisure: I'll be on steam today for a game! I hope the connection will work. Just drop me a message on steam (name: Kaunitz - the guy with the awesome hat!)! To increase our chances to connect, the free program "Logmein Hamachi" is very helpful.

    PS: Just noticed that I've forgotten to make the general available in the cavalry-category, and adding a line infantry unit to the general-category in the selection screen. Having the general unit always visible to the enemy is rather counterproductive...
    PS: Had a first battle against Splenyi. With Hamachi, we were able to connect, and the battle (1,5 hours, perhaps?) didn't crash! The walking fatigue indeed did it's job. Whenever I had to advance under musket fire, I did so "very" slowly, often stopping to dress the ranks. "Exhausted" troops are extremely fragile now. It doesn't matter on the march, as long as there are no enemies around or as long as you're only under artillery fire, but a threatened flank and/or musketry fire can ruin an "exhausted" unit's day. So, basically, you should always stop and dress the ranks before any kind of contact with the enemy is to be expected. It takes getting used to. Stop and dress! If you don't you will regret it. The nice side effect is that terrain makes an coordinated advance even more difficult. Firstly, the battalion that moves through the wood will arrive later than the rest of the line. And then, secondly, your line still needs to wait until the late battalion has dressed its ranks and is ready to move on. You'll better wait, even it means enduring 5 additional minutes of artillery bombardement.
    However, I'm still not a big fan of the bigger cavalry squadrons. They get stuckin terrain and friendly troops a lot, and they're routed as easily as a small cavalry unit. You just get the feeling of a much bigger loss once your unit turns tail.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 06, 2012 at 12:59 PM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  9. #9
    Splenyi's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Hi guys.

    I'm working with Kaunitz on this mod now, and my two roles are to add the units models, and the localisation file, which will give Kaunitz more time to work on what really matters, the game mechanics.
    | STRATEGOS - A REALISTIC REPRESENTATION OF ANCIENT WARFARE |
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    bloody bill's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Excellent buddy, glad to see you helping with the mod.

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    v_V-_CaNgRy_-V_v's Avatar Yari-hei
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Hey, Kaunitz its been forever . I got the mod if you want I can help with testing! looking good so far.

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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    I had a game versus bloody bill which unfortunately crashed just at the climax of the battle (It seems as if I've run out of cache. Perhaps restarting my computer before the game might help?...). Anyway. Here are my observations so far:

    1) The riderless horses in NTW are such a nuisance! I'm really angry about that. A single, routing, riderless horse will trigger the same morale effects as a full squadron. 2 of my battalions were routed in this game because of fleeing riderless horses.

    2) I'm not a fan of the bigger cavalry squadrons. Apart from the greater danger caused by riderless horses, my main gripe is that whenever you put them into a formation that is manoeuverable (4+ ranks) and that can be used to squeeze your cavalry through gaps in your infantry line, they're the prime target for artillery and can be routed within a matter of seconds. A single (double-sized) squadron loosing 2-3 troopers is worse than two (single sized) units one positioned behind the other, each suffering 1 casualty.

    3) The maps are dangerous. There are places without grass on which all troops will become visible for the enemy. This destroyed the surprise caused by bloody bills flanking march.

    4) Another thing that annoys me is that cannon balls travel quite happily through woods. And it's the same for musket balls. If you can see the enemy because some of your units are close enough, then you can fire on him. Even if it means that you're shooting through 250yards of woods. (there is a slight "cover" factor though)

    5) The game itself had a really good flow, I think. It saw quite a lot of light infantry skirmishing, a failed bayonet charge, hidden manoevres, and hardly ever were more than two battalions on each side engaged at any single time ... At the time of the crash, Bill had just managed to beat back my attack on his left/centre and was pushing forward with cavalry support. Meanwhile, I was trying to outflank his right with three of my "reserve" battalions (amongst them 1 btn of grenadiers). My battalions were struggling through the wood that bloody bills flank was anchored on, driving some of bills voltigeurs before them in the process. As soon as my battalions got out of the wood they stopped and organised themselves. For I was concentrating on bills narrow flank, my battalions' ends were brushing each other a bit. Bloody Bills right-most battalion immediatlyreacted to the flanking movement and retreated to a better defensive position, with its flank even better secured by a building. My grenadiers were on the heels of this battalion, following aggressively at the double, finally tangling it up in a very hot fire fight (I know I was a chicken not to attempt another bayonet charge here ). This episode, the grenadiers having appeared out of the wood, advancing aggressively uphills against the unlucky battalion, was my personal highlight in this battle. It felt like an episode of a real battle. And I was happy to see that the mechanics induced a player such as bloody bill to take the realistic decision and refuse the flank.

    All in all, it was a very interesting battle. At the time of the crash, Bloody Bill certainly had much better chances to win.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 08, 2012 at 02:54 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  13. #13
    bloody bill's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    @kAUNITZ, I thought the battle flowed very well causing adjustments to both our plans and reactions of sound military maneuvers. The skirmishing was very cool -> 1 issue with this is my skirmishe all ran out of ammo pretty fast it felt.

    The cav at the current size is possible to big as it will route very fast, I do think squadron size is the way to go.

    There is a way to make arty not go through woods very well, ILL ASK.

    The grass issue was unfortunate, I did however really enjoy the battle and it was exciting and shaping out to be very good. We both had units rout and get back into the fight. The woods are wonderful and terrible at the same time.

    Excellent mod, I would highly recommend it to anybody who wants a realistic battle in the age of muskets.

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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    How long did the skirmishing go on before we ran out of ammo? 15-20 minutes? This tells me that skirmishers still reload too fast. I've given them 40 rounds, which is already a bit too much, I think. (Oridnary line infantry comes with 60 rounds in their catridge boxes) A rate of 2 shots per minute for over 20 minutes is a bit utopic for rifles.

    On the other hand, I can also imagine, like you've said, that troops on this scale would resupply during the battle, so that we can think about giving them unlimited ammo.

    Another thing I found rather problematic is that the light infantry companies are incredibly prone to artillery fire if not in skirmish formation, simply because of their small size, which leads to "recent casualties" very quickly. I'll either make them shock resistant or indeed increase their size to 2 companies.

    Last but not least, I have to say that I felt a bit overchallenged with 20 units to control.

    Luckily, bloody bill took a screenshot just before the crash:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1. Bloody bills flanking march. I had my two gun models (representing 4 guns) here, but as bill was coming down a really steep hill, I had no chance to fire on his troops until they came into canister range. My battalion is trapped between French troops and the woods.
    2. Bloody Bill is advancing after having routed my right-centre, thereby cutting off my desperate single battalion and my guns. On the street, one of bloody bills cavalry units is just withdrawing behind the line after a successfull charge.
    3. My flanking movement. I almost had my 3 reserve battalions wait for too long on my left flank as I was still expecting bill to have some troops on this half of the battle field. In fact he just had some scouting cavalry there. When I finally advanced my reserve battalions along the road, I noticed that the street and the house on the edge of the wood were empty and uncontested. However, as bill had just broken my center-right, there was no time left to walk into his rear (dotted line. Apart from the lack of time, the route was also protected by the 4 (=8) 12pdrs on the hill (4), plus a battalion which was hidden in the wood (I didn't even see the cavalry! *lol*). So I decided to go through the woods against his flank. You can see (or rather imagine behind the trees) my aggressive grenadiers, and bills battalion that had fallen back and anchored its right flank on the house.
    4. Bills battery which had a great line of fire throughout the whole battle. Damn this hill! It's overpowered.

    Note that the street is littered with lots of dead and wounded. This was the result of the skirmishing and my first attack on Bills line. In terms of casuatlies, it was q auite bloody battle (at least on my side *g*). I got peppered by bills battery on the hill all the time. The battle has been raging over this street for about 20 minutes already, and my line has been constantly exposed to artiller fire.


    PS: I'm going to make some experiments with the "rally"-ability of generals in NTW. Perhaps it can really help units to rally quicklier, which is a good thing (especially cavalry needs it after successfull charges, imho).
    PS: I'm also working on a new intro video which tries to capture a bit more the war-experience of the ordinary soldier. For that purpose, I might even choose traditional bohemian music (featuring the Bohemian bagpipe: Dudy or german: Bock) instead of galant violin music (or rather Johann Michael Haydn's Requiem of 1771 - it's more fitting for the cruelties of war). I didn't know that even the german word for bapipe (Dudelsack) derives from the Dudy.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 08, 2012 at 12:40 PM.
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    1) Could you give me a hint where to find the weather-mod that you've mentioned, bloody bill? I just can't seem to find it. (It is supposed to make the weather selection in custom battles work correctly. In 2 out of 2 mp games so far, we had rain even though we wanted it to be "dry"....)

    2) Are there any wishes to add a smoke mod to the project? Any preferences whom I should ask?

    3) Splenyi is working on the models and has already done three. It seems to work!

    4) I will get rid of the "voices" of the units in the next version.

    5) Artillery accuracy will be reduced for the longer ranges. In fact it should be forbidden to fire at targets over 600 m (150 ingame meters, according to the scale), for gunners would have been unable to identify units (friend or foe?) at ranges over 400 m.

    6) I'm still available for a game! Out of 40 downloaders so far, only 2 have discovered the mod's main purpose - multiplayer games. It's not meant to be played versus the AI.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 09, 2012 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Here are some scenes of my latest battle versus Cangry (no crashes!). We had agreed that he would attack and try to take a certain hill within a time span of 2 hours. In return, I wouldn’t use my general (with his better detection rate). I’m ashamed to say that Cangry managed to conquer the hill in less than 1 hour and 20 minutes. It was a very interesting battle, with some very fierce fire fights along the whole line, which broke into two parts during the battle. In the end, we both had suffered about the same amount of casualties, but Cangry held the hill. According to the end screen, I've lost 267 out of 1642 deployed, and Cangry 250 out of 1702. 82 of those 250 have been inclicted alone by my two batteries of 12pdrs.

    The “climax” of the battle (see upcoming video Nr. 2) saw Cangry advance a battalion without support, and, after having received enfilading fire from my guns, draw it back again. I tried to exploit this drawback and also the fact that Cangry had positioned skirmishers as part of his line, but unfortunately I ruined everything by having my battalion suffer some friendly artillery fire. Own goal…

    We also played out the retreat of my troops. Some of my grenadiers did a great job in keeping the pursuers at bay. Even though Cangrys cavalry drove off the cavalry screen of my column and then attacked the head of my retreat-column (in which skirmish my general died), I managed to get about 70% of my battalions to the border of the map in an unbroken state. At least some success Cangry had an undisputed tactical victory, but my corps survived!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyfG...ature=youtu.be (part 1)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u01hk...ature=youtu.be (part 2)

    Push-backs versus routs

    The video nummer 2 will be a good example. You can see that Cangrys battalion is hard pressed. He lets it turn around and walk backwards, turning its back on the enemy. In previous versions of the kaunitz project, I think this would have resulted in an immediate rout as the “both flanks (=rear) threatened”-morale malus would set in. In this version of the kaunitz project, the malus is still there, but it’s effect has been reduced a lot. Right now, having one flank threatened is much more dangerous than having both flanks threatened. The reason for this? You can see it in the video! You can now draw back units when they’re under pressure. I got this idea when I was reading the part about ordered retreats in Dundas' drill book for the British army, where he speaks of battalions acting in a kind of checkerboard, one half always covering the retreat of the other halt. I wonder if such a thing could ever work under battle stress. Anyway...the low rear-threatened malus is supposed to give a bit more room to outcomes of fire fights. It’s not just the usual “be routed or rout the enemy”. Rather players now have the option to fall back, keep a distance, and evade pressure. I wonder if I should even give units with a threatened rear a slight morale bonus to reward players if they draw back battalions under pressure. What do you think? Too gamey? Unrealistic?

    Also remember that walking units loose cohesion, which means that the fire of both sides gets worse and inaccurate in a running battle. At the same time, if the pursuer wants to close the gap and get close (walks too much without stopping, or even runs) he’ll risk a rout if fired upon.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 09, 2012 at 03:14 PM.
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Canister

    Bloody Bill has drawn my attention to canister shot once more, for he thought it is a bit underpowered in the mod. Didz, Wangrin and I have already started to bring together some pieces of information here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...y#post10388927 (starting with post number 155)

    Meanwhile, I've also looked up in Anthony L. Dawson, Paul L. Dawson, Stephen Summerfield, Napoleonic Artillery (2007) and they quote a test carried out by the Russian army in 1807 (p. 246f.). I haven't checked if this one is quoted in Nafziger as well. The target was a pinewood panel 1m wide(!) x 2,2m high.

    calibre and balls----------200m--/--250m--/--300m--/--350m--/--400m--/--450m--/--500m
    12 pdr heavy (151 balls) ---?----/-40 hits--/-22 hits--/-15 hits-/-10 hits--/-6 hits--/--2 hits
    12 pdr light (132 balls) --46 hits-/--34 hits-/-19 hits--/-12 hits-/-8 hits---/-4 hits--/--0 hits
    6 pdr (99 balls) ---------32 hits-/-24 hits--/-16 hits--/-8 hits--/-5 hits---/-1 hit---/--0 hits

    (sorry for the bad format..)

    Now, for me the interpretation of this test is a bit complicated. If it tells us something, then it's probably that canister was relatively harmless? It gives us probably a bit less spread than Wangrin has suggested (1/10 of the distance) . About 35% of the balls fired at ranges under 200m hit a target that was only 1m wide! The question is: to what extent did the other 65% of the balls spead around that target? The 1/10 formula would give us a total frontage of 20m, which I think is a bit too high, given that 35% hit an one-meter-target. Did the balls cover a frontage of 10m in total? Okay, then a single discharge would take out perhaps 12 men (and this for sure!), or in 4:1 game terms: 3 models. I guess that there would be more blood shed at ranges where less balls hit the very small target in full concentration, allowing the other balls spread over a wider frontage (and of course many also going high or hitting the ground).

    Dawson, Dawson and Summerfield also quote General Allix, Major General Kutaisov, and General Okounef (whoever these guys were...) who testify that canister casualties (in contrast to the effect on morale) were relatively negligable for infantry. Okounef stressed its usefullness against cavalry, however, not because it inflicted that much casualties, but because it unsettled horses.

    So, to sum it up: canister didn't penetrate beyond the first rank, and it's effectiveness depended on how much it spread. More spread would mean that the bullets would cover a bigger frontage, thus threatening more files. But at the same time, the balls equally spread vertically, so that most bullets would go too high or too short. All data so far suggests that the spread was quite small, about 1 m for every 10 meters traveled or even a bit less. Bloody bills live attendance also suggests a smaller spread:

    Quote Originally Posted by bloody bill View Post
    I would think that larger arty pieces would fire more like buck shot. It would have a tighter pattern and would be devastating up to 3/4 of its max range. (...) I have seen live fire exercises with 12lb Napoleon at Fort Stevens, it was a civil war era gun that shot effective canister up to 500 yards on a 50 yard wide paper target representing an enemy platoon. At least in the test all balls that hit the target were within 30 yards of each other. Also at close range of around 50 yards canister went through six gel targets before stopping in the seventh.

    Consequently, I think that many people highly overestimate the (physical) effect of canister, but we can't be certain. As for the effect on morale, just imagine what a guy hit by ca. 20 balls at 200 meters would have looked like.

    Didz has also questioned why most of the artillery tests didn't experiment with ranges lower than 200m (the main working range for canister). That's an interesting question indeed. Were these tests supposed to find out maximum canister range or perhaps optimal canister range? If we think of a cone, wouldn't canister become less effective under a certain range? What means did artillerymen have to increase or generally adjust the spread (double loading, for example?)?

    For the next version, however, I'm going to implement canister rather than grape shot for artillery, giving it more punch at shorter ranges. Still it won't be the carnage feast that you can see in vanilla NTW and other mods.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 10, 2012 at 01:51 AM.
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    bloody bill's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    I strongly believe canister was a very deadly ammunition on the attack and defense.

    Some examples:

    I will get the exact source for this example later its burried in my war of the rebellion document.

    Union artillery captain in command of a single 12lb Napoleon fired into oncoming Confederate Regiment at 60 yards. He pulled the lanyerd and reported that as the smoke cleard the only thing left of the Confederates immediatly in his frot was a pinkish mist flowing with the wind and bodies heaped in rows. Also notes from the war of the rebellion show how most crews packed double canister at short ranges of 80 yards or less.

    Battle of Friedland
    Action Front! Senarmont at Friedland

    By Kevin Kiley
    1700 Hours 14 June 1807, near Friedland, East Prussia

    The artillery companies were limbered up behind a small rise of ground that masked them from Russian observation. NCOs casually moved down the sleepy, exhausted columns, the Grande Armée's marches not being a pleasurable experience, carefully checking harness and equipment, stopping occasionally to pat a favorite horse, lifting the animals' fetlocks to check tender hooves. Horses cropped at the remains of the spring grass, their swishing tails brushing away the flies while the drivers of their train company dismounted to clean the animals' eyes and nostrils of the bothersome dust. Gun and section chiefs checked their ammunition, ensuring the trail chests were full for immediate use. All ignored the vulgar uproar off to their right near the Forest of Sortlack, getting what rest they could, the horses demonstrating their unusual ability of locking their knees and sleeping standing up.

    French Artilleryman
    French Artilleryman

    On that slight rise to their front, two of their company commanders stood puffing their pipes while their bored trumpeters held their horses. They watched the dark masses of Ney's VI Corps spill out of the woods on their right, like an immense blue wave. One of them waved at the commander of one of the I Corps artillery companies that was already forward supporting Dupont's deployed infantry division. He was in full dress, including an immense colpack with tall red plume-he had always been an outstanding showoff. Sharing their one remaining small telescope, one of them had lost the sacre thing in Prussia the year before, the two officers watched in amazement as Russian cavalry jumped Ney's infantry before they could deploy and drove them back towards the shelter of the woods. Russian artillery fire from batteries across the river began to fall among Ney's shaken infantry, causing considerable loss. The two officers remarked admiringly and somewhat surprised, on its accuracy. They could see at least two regiments forming square to stop the Russian horsemen, but the damage had been done. The Emperor would not be pleased. It would take some time for Red Michael to get his infantry reformed.

    The captains' attention was suddenly drawn by a shout from one of their trumpeters. Pounding up the slope towards them was one of General Senarmont's aide-de-camp. They wondered what their chief of artillery wanted. At the aide's hail, the two officers quickly mounted and followed him back to the artillery assembly area and into a whirlwind of activity. The other company commanders were hastily summoning their officers and senior NCOs. Junior NCOs were forming the companies for rapid movement, cuffing awake dozing train drivers who couldn't stay awake in the early summer warmth.

    Behind the companies Senarmont was conferring with his corps commander, General Victor, and a sweat stained, grime covered senior officer one of them recognized as Marshal Lannes. One captain swore viciously under his breath. They both knew if Lannes was around they were in for a long day. That wry-necked bastard loved to fight. Well, the officers' mess would be short a few members this evening. Suddenly Senarmont saluted, turned his horse and trotted to the front of the massed artillery companies. Politely asking one of the company commanders for the loan of a trumpeter, Senarmont placed himself at the front of the formation and nodded to the youngster. The astonished trumpeter quickly wiped the instrument's mouthpiece, raised his trumpet to his lips, and sounded 'charge' as Senarmont raised himself in his saddle, turned to his companies, bellowed 'En avant' and sunk spur.

    The war begun by Prussia against the French Empire in the fall of 1806 had flowed into Poland, mud, and misery against the Russians and Prussian remnants after the destruction of the Prussian Army at the battles of Jena-Auerstadt. The French pursuit that followed was ruthless, Prussian fortressess and prisoners being scooped up wholesale. Only units in East Prussia escaped the disaster. The Russians belatedly came to the aid of their defeated allies, which led to a bitter winter campaign in the miserable wastes of eastern Poland and East Prussia. It culminated in a vicious pounding match at Eylau in the bitter cold and snow in February 1807. Both armies, exhausted and suffering heavy casualties, went into winter quarters to retrain and refit.

    Napoleon once again demonstrated his terrible genius for organization, drawing units from secondary theaters to return the Grande Armée to fighting efficiency. Replacing commanders killed or disabled, the toughness of the Grande Armée reasserted itself, commanders ensuring their units were ready for campaigning in the spring and inspections from the Emperor. The armies again took the field in the spring, and after hard, indecisive campaigning, Benningsen, the Russian commander, shoved his head into the tactical sack at the little village of Friedland on the River Alle. Crossing the river to engage and destroy the French corps of Marshal Lannes, Benningsen thought he could quickly dispatch Lannes and recross the Alle without becoming decisively engaged. Knowing that Napoleon was within supporting distance with at least three corps, Lannes sent aides galloping off with messages for help and waged an expert delaying action to fix Benningsen in place. With never more than 26,000 men, Lannes forced Benningsen to commit progressively more troops across the Alle to defeat him. Showing a bold front, and shifting troops where needed to stop Russian advances, especially in the Forest of Sortlack on the French right, Lannes held Benningsen in place until the Frnech had massed 80,000 troops on the left bank of the river. Benningsen was trapped and had to fight. Having thrown all of his pontoon bridges at or near the bottleneck of the village of Friedland, Benningsen had unwittingly trapped his troops on the west bank.

    Napoleon's plan was to hold with his deliberately outnumbered left flank, employing Ney's VI corps to deliver the decisive attack on the French right. Ney's preparations were masked by the Forest of Sortlack. Victor's I Corps would hod the center, with Mortier's VIII Corps and the Guard in reseve. As Murat was at Heilsberg, Grouchy acted as chief of cavalry. Grouchy would particularly distinguish himself here, holding the French left very skillfully while outnumbered, ruining what some of the opposing cossacks thought to be a good day. The Emperor wanted to destroy the Russians, not a repeat of Eylau.

    On order, Ney's corps debouched from its forested assembly area, the two infantry divisions formed abreast in closed columns. Latour-Maubourg's cavalry division was in direct support. Ney cleared the woods, but failed or refused to deploy, making his divisions compact targets for the numerous Russian artilley on the right bank of the river. Russian cavalry charged the heads of Ney's two divisions while artillery raked them unmercifully. This was too much, except for three regiments that formed square, the rest bolted for the rear.

    As Ney's attack fell part, one of Victor's infantry divisions, Dupont's, advanced 'smartly' on the Russian center without orders. Senarmont, Victor's chief of artillery, supported this advance with twelve guns and immediately requested permission to advance with the remaining 24 that belonged to the corps. Permission granted, he quickly organized the companies into two 15 gun batteries, keeping six in reserve. Placing his two batteries on either flank of Dupont's division, he rapidly outpaced the sweating infantry and proceeded to attack the Russian center on his own.

    The artillery companies clattered past Dupont's panting infantrymen, the foot artillery gunners running to keep up. Breaking into a charge, Senarmont's companies wheeled into position and began to unlimber. Company commanders' sabers flashed in the June sunlight as they directed their guns into position and shouted their first fire order. Trumpeters' were blowing calls for 'action front!'; well-trained artillery horses responding without direction from their drivers. Panting, sweating gunners caught up with the gun teams, horses snorting and breathing heavy in their sweat-soaked harness. Sweaty, slippery, calloused hands grabbed handspikes and gun trails and the heavy carriages were lifted from their limbers by the grunting gunners. Trails were swung round and the guns manhandled into position by sweat and muscle. More trumpet calls, the rush of gun teams, and the two fifteen gun batteries rapidly advanced by successive bounds towards the Russian center.

    General Senarmont's Artillery at Friedland
    General Senarmont's Artillery at Friedland

    Russian artillery fire was beginning to find the range. Men and horses were beginning to get hit; horses screamed and went down, men cut in half or decapitated by the plunging round shot, wounded gunners staying at their posts until passing out from loss of blood. Completely ignoring the Russian artillery fire, Senarmont ordered his companies to concentrate on the Russian infantry to their front. Not satisfied with the range, Senarmont ordered his trumpeter to blow another call. Alert section chiefs ceased fire, while gun teams galloped up to retrieve the guns. Limber up, mount, displace forward. At 150 yards the terrain narrowed so that both batteries had to combine into one. Another trumpet call, echoed by all the trumpeters in the companies. 'Action Front!' Halt, dismount, unlimber, all the while enduring the sacre Russian counterbattery fire. More horses and men were hit and went down, but the gunners coolly, expertly opened fire.

    Through the shot filled inferno, Senarmont set an admirable example of coolness to his gun crews. Still, he ordered them forward again. To save the depleted gun teams, the gunners used their bricoles, turning themselves into a 'man team' and went forward by successive bounds to 120 yards. Satisfied, Senarmont ordered halt and the gunners reopened fire. Quickly going to rapid fire, they started to take the Russian center apart-at this range they couldn't miss. Out of range of the Russian muskets, the gunners blew the center out of the Russian line, knocking over 4,000 of them in twenty-five minutes. Back in the Forest of Sortlack, Ney cursed and pounded his two divisions back into formation, leading them back to the assault 'like a captain of grenadiers.' His corps artillery went rapidly into action against the Russian batteries across the river, giving badly needed support to Senarmont's depleted companies. Other French artillery joined in and rapidly built up artillery superiority and silenced the Russian guns.

    Latour-Maubourg again advanced and charged the troublesome Russian cavalry, rapidly defeating it. Dupont caught up with Senarmont as the Russian Imperial Guard counterattacked. Dupont led his infantry against the Russian Guard infantry, defeating it in a savage bayonet fight, the shorter, more expert French infantry killing their opponents with lethal upward thrusts. The Russians bolted for the bridges and relative safety of Friedland.

    The Russian Guard cavalry made an attempt to silence Senarmont. Advancing against Senarmont's left flank, they had a chance to silence the French guns. Seeing the impending threat, the quick-witted Senarmont immediatley ordered 'Action Flank.' Trumpeters echoed the call down the gun line. Exhausted crews swung the trails to the right, bringing the muzzles towards the onrushing horsemen. Gun captains hands went into the air as their guns were loaded with canister. Trumpets blew, the Russians broke into the charge with a roar, and the French company commanders bellowed 'FEU!' Portfires touched vents, and the guns exploded with a deafening roar and recoiled back sending their rounds down range like immense shotguns. Crew manhandled the guns back into battery, gun captains relaid the tubes as the tubes were swabbed out and another round rammed home, while vigilant gunners thumbed the tubes' vents to prevent an accidental discharge. Quickly arms were again raised, and the command 'FEU!' was again bellowed. The ominous portfires descended and the guns once again roared, recoiled and were manhandled back into battery. Vents again covered, gunners swabbed and reloaded awaiting the next command. 'Cease Fire' was sounded, and as the smoke cleared, the gunners saw the red ruin they had caused. The Czar's picked cavalrymen had been literally blown off the battlefield. Once again, the widows of St. Petersburg would weep.

    General Alexandre Antoine Hureau de Senarmont
    General Alexandre Antoine Hureau de Senarmont

    Pressing their advantage, Dupont's infantry advanced on Friedland and the Russian bridges. Senarmont sent six guns to accompany Dupont's continuing advance, while the main battery supported other French infantry which had joined the general advance. Senarmont brought his companies forward again, so that his guns could literally sweep Friedland's streets. Repeated Russian attempts to reform were broken up by accurate artillery fire. Benningsen's army was rapidly falling apart, Russians either being killed outright or drowning in the river.

    Senarmont's gunners had suffered 50% casualties, but the innovative use of artillery had been the decisive factor on the battlefield. Senarmont was one of the best artillerymen the Grande Armée produced. A tactical innovator, as well as a superb combat leader, his performance revolutionized the use of artillery on the battlefield for the next fifty years until the advent of rifled artillery. The new tactics demonstrated that artillery could be used to achieve decisive results on the battlefield. French artillery would be used repeatedly after this to achieve like results. Wagram, Lutzen, Hanau, Ligny, and Waterloo would see French gunners, under other talented artillerymen, use their guns aggressively in support of the infantry. Lauriston would mass the huge battery to support MacDonald's attack at Wagram; Druout would lead his gunners into the inferno of Lutzen at the charge to unlimber and blow the center out of the allied line, followed by the Young Guard infantry; Druout would again mass his 12-pounders at Hanau against the treachery of the Bavarians under Wrede, fighting off allied cavalry in the battery positions as well as silencing the Bavarian artillery; at Ligny, for the last time, massed French artillery companies would blow the center out of an allied line, allowing the Guard infantry once again to assault its remnants; individual company commanders would manhandle their guns to within 250 yards, some to within 100 yards, of the allied line near Waterloo's ending, to demolish English squares at point blank range before the right flank caved in to overwhelming numbers.

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    Kaunitz's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Wow, quite a lot to read. But this is a modern account, not a first hand account? To be honest, I'm not familiar with any napoleonic battle. Going back to the post by Didz where he also mentions the battle of Friedland, he talks of 368 rounds of canister that Senarmonts batteries fired into the Russian line at 200 yards. The 4000 casualties were a result of this canister fire, as well as the 2000+ roundshot that had been fired during the approachment of the Russians. So we will end up with less than 10 casualties per round of canister (10,8 per discharge if we assume that all casualties have been caused by canister, and none by roundshot).

    However, canister at closer ranges indeed seems to have made terrible execution. Didz mentions an incident at Waterloo where two platoons (ca 70 men) of a square were virtually mowed down by a single discharge at ca. 50 yards. Your ACW-reference at 60 yards supports that abominable picture. So obviously artillerymen had means to make things even more horrible at shorter ranges, increasing the spread of the balls to more than 1/10. Perhaps the bullets were even capable of penetrating several ranks under 100 yards? Anyway, my idea of canister becoming less effective under a certain range stands corrected.

    Sorry for overstraining Didz as my source. I just can't find any eye-witness references to canister fire in my sources (but I'll keep searching and looking).
    Last edited by Kaunitz; April 10, 2012 at 01:52 AM.
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    Andre J. Jassoch's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: NTW: Kaunitz Project

    Absolutely.Canister was absolut davastating ammo to lives of soldiers and morale.I dont have the exactly materials to proove it by the hand but as far as i know one shot has contaignet 15 balls(depends on caliber of the cannon) fired with such power that each ball can break throuhg 3-4 soldiers.Imagine tens of cannons fireing into the slow incomming lines of enemy soldiers.Terrible death.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloody bill View Post
    I strongly believe canister was a very deadly ammunition on the attack and defense.

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