M2TW Pre-ballots

[Killerbee]

Can I nominate Briarius for favourite Skinner and Modeler even though his mod isn't released yet ?

[Minas Moth]

i have to say that i'm nobody when it comes to modding (considering the work other people do) but i have been around for some time to see certain things. i don't mean to be disrespectful of anyone's work but i feel some good modders have been left out of this competition... for example, when it comes to modding in M2TW i'm surprised no one nominated Withwnar for any category... especially because in last year he has made some great work as well as some break-through. most significant thing that comes to my mind is his Remote viewing mod that was even incorporated into the TATW 3.0 itself. i thing that any modder who would look at that code would be in awe, as it should, for it is complicated thing.

such a code can only be appreciated by the peers of its maker. average gamer doesn't pay any attention to this type of work, nor how many trials and errors it takes to make it happen. therefor i'm really sad to see that some truly great stuff aren't getting deserved attention. i've seen that baron has been nominate. with no disrespect meant his work is buggy and it's more of quantity over quality. he is great at what he does, but i believe that there are others who might deserve nomination at least...

well that's just my opinion... by looks of it, to little to late... but better late than never...

cheers

[Muizer]

Personally, I think it's a shame if eligible mods and modders don't enter the competition, but I think it would be a bit odd to blame them for depriving the membership of the chance to vote for them.

[Louis Lux]

Can I nominate Briarius for favourite Skinner and Modeler even though his mod isn't released yet ?

Although he released some great resources he hasn't released his mod. I don't think he would like to receive an award for something that wasn't released and it wouldn't be fair with the other contestants

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i have to say that i'm nobody when it comes to modding (considering the work other people do) but i have been around for some time to see certain things. i don't mean to be disrespectful of anyone's work but i feel some good modders have been left out of this competition... for example, when it comes to modding in M2TW i'm surprised no one nominated Withwnar for any category... especially because in last year he has made some great work as well as some break-through. most significant thing that comes to my mind is his Remote viewing mod that was even incorporated into the TATW 3.0 itself. i thing that any modder who would look at that code would be in awe, as it should, for it is complicated thing.

such a code can only be appreciated by the peers of its maker. average gamer doesn't pay any attention to this type of work, nor how many trials and errors it takes to make it happen. therefor i'm really sad to see that some truly great stuff aren't getting deserved attention. i've seen that baron has been nominate. with no disrespect meant his work is buggy and it's more of quantity over quality. he is great at what he does, but i believe that there are others who might deserve nomination at least...

well that's just my opinion... by looks of it, to little to late... but better late than never...

cheers

Baron nominated himself and he is quite eligible. There is really nothing keeping other modders from nominating themselves, and now everyone has the opportunity to nominate the modders they deem deserving so it seems you are making empty remarks.

[Minas Moth]

Baron nominated himself and he is quite eligible. There is really nothing keeping other modders from nominating themselves, and now everyone has the opportunity to nominate the modders they deem deserving so it seems you are making empty remarks.

yes, i'm not saying that i'm not making empty remarks and i don't deny Baron's work. i just pointed out there are some people who have done truly great work (like the Remote Viewing that i mentioned)...

nominating and voting process i won't talk about, it's really not my place and right to talk about it...

but, my only regret is, that i have seen this too late... to late, to maybe nominate people who's work i found amazing from technical and programmer point of view. that's all...

[Occhi Di Davide]

The system here is totally wrong and it's years i'm telling this. This contest should be made in this way: an elected jury formed by a group of modders who TECHNICALLY analyze and then vote the best ones among the major and minor mods released (including mini modifications). Modders making part of a mod nominated cannot vote for their own mod. Also, if we let the fanboys vote every time, we'll have the same identical results for next twenty years. Only the blockbuster modifications win. Why for example, my BETTER WATER 2 has never been quoted by anyone here? Technically is one of the best mods ever created. But of course it's a niche product so the masses dont know its existence. Now, do you seriously expect a TATW fanboy to vote for Paeninsula Italica or IB for example? It will always vote for a TATW member/thing whenever it'd be present on the list. 100% GUARANTEED.

[Éorl]

The system here is totally wrong and it's years i'm telling this. This contest should be made in this way: an elected jury formed by a group of modders who TECHNICALLY analyze and then vote the best ones among the major and minor mods released (including mini modifications). Modders making part of a mod nominated cannot vote for their own mod. Also, if we let the fanboys vote every time, we'll have the same identical results for next twenty years. Only the blockbuster modifications win. Why for example, my BETTER WATER 2 has never been quoted by anyone here? Technically is one of the best mods ever created. But of course it's a niche product so the masses dont know its existence. Now, do you seriously expect a TATW fanboy to vote for Paeninsula Italica or IB for example? It will always vote for a TATW member/thing whenever it'd be present on the list. 100% GUARANTEED.

^I sympathize. I had the same idea for a jury of one's peers (fellow modders instead of fanboys). To be honest, it won't work. I can't imagine many modders to be willing to invest the sheer time involved with examining any mod in the competition - I wouldn't.

So, it'll remain a popularity contest (why the awards should be prefixed with 'most popular', not with 'best'!).

If it is of some worth: I guess you can be sure that your fellow modders will appreciate efforts that yield quality results, no matter how far, even if they are not as vocal about it as are the fanboys (nothing against fanboys, btw).

[+Mr.Crow+]

^I sympathize. I had the same idea for a jury of one's peers (fellow modders instead of fanboys). To be honest, it won't work. I can't imagine many modders to be willing to invest the sheer time involved with examining any mod in the competition - I wouldn't.

So, it'll remain a popularity contest (why the awards should be prefixed with 'most popular', not with 'best'!).

If it is of some worth: I guess you can be sure that your fellow modders will appreciate efforts that yield quality results, no matter how far, even if they are not as vocal about it as are the fanboys (nothing against fanboys, btw).

Maybe you are right...few people will loose its time to examine each features in each big work like SS or TATW...but i think that this examination can be easly done for little mods or mod improvements like Davide's better water...and i think that it is the only way to avoid fanboy nominations...

If the creation of a qualified jury is impossible or it's not accepted by who organizes the TWC Modding Awards, i think that the most correct thing to do to avoid the "TATW\SS wins all" effect caused by fanboys (or, better, fankids) is to add some rules:

1) if a team leader adds its mod (i mean a big and complete mod) to the list, he can't add its name to modders category (like modeller, texturer , mapper,etc)

2) a modder can't nominate himself for more then 2 category

3) a mod can't be nominated for more then 2 category

4) if a mod wins a mod award in a category during a year, it can't be renominated for the same category the following year, also if it has a new version...

[Occhi Di Davide]

Gentlemen, i take two minutes to classify and rate models from a game. Exactly as a somelier who knows immediately after the first taste, if a wine is crap or excellence. Just saying...

[Emperor of Hell]

I agree (as I had already posted a few pages earlier) with the above posts that the mods should be rated by a jury of people who know something about modding. It's just not fair to be the best mod because you have the most fans.

[Muizer]

To add a level of realism and practicality to the discussion, I'll just take down the names of all who argue in favour of a professional Jury as volunteers for next year's awards. Lack of expertise isn't a problem. It's only April after all.....there's still time.

[Judeman266]

I sort of disagree with you. The most popular mods are popular for a reason. When I first started looking at M2TW mods I did not choose one and decide that was my favorite, I downloaded many. Call of Warhammer, KGCM, SV, BC, Retrofit, 1143, Deus Lo Vult, Eras Total Conquest, Stainless Steel, and every now and then I play Third Age. However when I compared mods based on campaign balance, battle balance, and visual content/experience there are clearly some mods that stood above the rest. Even if you separate it by fantasy, historical, or other genres the most popular mods tend to be the ones that are the best in aforementioned categories.

[Minas Moth]

yes, that are good and soun points made here gentleman...

jury of peers and not best but most popular award...

or, leave the fans to vote for "most popular one", just rename the competition and establish a new category "best"...

as davide said, good modder will not need long to see if someone's work is good or not. example: if you make a code of 5000+ lines in let's say campaign script, you simply fire a game, try to do what code should let you to, see if everything works and that's pretty much it. everything else such as looking the code itself is in my opinion more on the track of "how did that guy/girl managed to make it work", professional interest so to speak.

also, nominating yourself is in my own personal opinion unacceptable (to me at least)... if i had the best mod ever (which i never will but for the sake of argument) i wouldd never nominate myself for some award. and what if self-nominee is the only aplicant for certain category? does he immediatly gets the best award? seriously, things are little sketchy with all that...

but, i'm not trying to start a thread war so please don't take my words as provocative, i'm just holpless "righteousness obssesed man"...

[Judeman266]

I think nominees should be determined by the modder community with one write in candidate by the awards committee. While I do think we should maintain the voting by the entire twc community that accounts for maybe 50-75% of the voting, it is probably also necessary to have a jury of active members or modders who evaluate the nominees. If it was a council of modders, it would have to be modders who don't have a mod or mod team member up for an award.

[Aikanár]

example: if you make a code of 5000+ lines in let's say campaign script, you simply fire a game, try to do what code should let you to, see if everything works and that's pretty much it. everything else such as looking the code itself is in my opinion more on the track of "how did that guy/girl managed to make it work", professional interest so to speak.

I couldn't disagree more, if you would be looking for "favourite" scripter, then I could agree with you, sort of. But if you would be looking for the "best" scripter it matters a lot how the script is written, some can script awesome stuff with just some lines of code, others do pretty much ruin your entire game with x-thousand lines of code while achieving virtually nothing.

[Muizer]

also, nominating yourself is in my own personal opinion unacceptable (to me at least)... if i had the best mod ever (which i never will but for the sake of argument) i wouldd never nominate myself for some award.

I'm not happy with the use of the word "nomination". I would have preferred a more consistent use of the term "entry" or "submission", but that's really semantics.

But to return to your remark. There's a flip side that you should also consider.

You feel that creators of mods should not be made to look immodest. But the fact is the creators of mods are best placed to supply facts about who did what and when. So you're asking the organisers to make an unnecessary extra effort, to spare modders' feelings. On what grounds can you expect anyone to buy into such a scheme and organise the awards? Grateful fans? But the organisers will be modders themselves, who probably have better things to do with their time. They're as much providing a service to the contestants as vice-versa.

[Occhi Di Davide]

I sort of disagree with you. The most popular mods are popular for a reason. When I first started looking at M2TW mods I did not choose one and decide that was my favorite, I downloaded many. Call of Warhammer, KGCM, SV, BC, Retrofit, 1143, Deus Lo Vult, Eras Total Conquest, Stainless Steel, and every now and then I play Third Age. However when I compared mods based on campaign balance, battle balance, and visual content/experience there are clearly some mods that stood above the rest. Even if you separate it by fantasy, historical, or other genres the most popula,r mods tend to be the ones that are the best in aforementioned categories.

Hardly, a guy loving the Roman era would install a mod located in Oceania for example. People mostly tend to play mods according to:

1) own geographical position
2) favourite historical era

Exactly as I, Venetian and Roman descendant, I will never ever play a "Maori total war" or a "Brazilian conquest " for example. Simply Cuz those are differing too much from my personal tastes. And people are taken to appreciate just what they like according to their prefs, even if their mods are not the best technically made

[Judeman266]

Well here is an example. The two most popular historical M2TW mods are arguably Stainless Steel and Broken Crescent. I say arguably just to avoid a flame war. Now lets examine from a battle balance perspective. They clearly stand a head above the rest by any measure of battle balance. So whether we want to agree or not the general twc community is not biased when judging something based on its merits. I should also specify that I am talking about mod awards and not individual awards.

[Aikanár]

Really? Have you analysed their and all other m2k mods battle ballance and if so how?
You might have the personal feeling, that those two mods appeal to you the most when it comes to battle balance, which is your personal opinion, to which you're totally entitled. But that does not make your opinion anything else than your personal point of view.

If you're assumption would be true regarding SS, then how come that RC+RR is one of the most popular submods for it?

[Judeman266]

RC/RR is not a submod anymore, it is integrated into SS. Anyone who wants a more vanilla recruitment system can turn RR off, but not RC which is permanent. Even then unit availability is still determined by RR. Turning off RR only allows you recruit units in one turn and sometime before the historical era they appeared, or as stated before, a more vanilla recruitment system. While there is some subjectivity to rating mods, I can guarantee that if anyone were to create a scale for a certain category and have predetermined requirements for what the criteria are, those two mods would probably win the historical mod category. While it might be closer than I previously stated it there still is a difference. I also stated that while I agree that community voting should count for some of the vote, an independent council or jury who don't have conflicts with the nominees should have a 25-50% vote value.