Stephen Fry lends support to Greek calls to return Elgin marbles to Athens

[alhoon]

They acquired them with the consent from the legal government that who ruled Greece at the time and the British have been in control and had a connection for them longer than there has been an independent Greek state.

They aquired them from our conquerors and they have no connection with them except to look at them as trophies while we see the work of our ancestors there.

[Dr. Croccer]

They aquired them from our conquerors and they have no connection with them except to look at them as trophies while we see the work of our ancestors there.

Because you have to be the descendant of the maker of a work of history in order to be able to appreciate it...

[Stavroforos]

Because you have to be the descendant of the maker of a work of history in order to be able to appreciate it...

Nah, you need to see the work out of its setting and context thousands of miles away to appreciate it.

[BSZ]

I'm on the fence with this one.
I understand why Greece would want these marbles back, and I do have a feeling that the marbles belong in Greece.
On the other hand, I also feel that the British Museum acquired these legally, and they have been in their possession for almost 2 centuries, surely giving them some right to them.
And then at last, there's also the point, that the British Museum's collection is arguably the most impressive historical collection in the history of mankind, and that itself can also make it a monument, in a sense. And the museum does allow the public access to the marbles too, so on that fact alone, the Greeks can't demand them back. On the other hand, I have no fear that the Greeks themselves cannot take care of them, so the British shouldn't

If an agreement could be made, in circulation between the countries, I would have nothing against it, but it should be up to the British Museum, whether they would like to give them up.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Because you have to be the descendant of the maker of a work of history in order to be able to appreciate it...

You could argue that the ancient Greeks are in no way related to the modern ones. Okay. But what do the monuments have to do with a place hundreds of miles away from where those folks actually lived..?

[Condottiere 40K]

There's probably some form of statute of limitations regarding loot, and the Marbles were legally purchased.

Only an appeal to English goodwill is possible, and I get the feeling it's similar to asking for an adoptive parent to be requested to give up custody.

[Stavroforos]

Only an appeal to English goodwill is possible...

Well then this entire argument is pointless.

[Condottiere 40K]

I wouldn't give up hope, they returned the Stone of Scone to Scotland, though there's a rumour it's a forgery. I think it has to be sent back to England for successive coronations.

[Treize]

The Greeks are not capable of properly maintaining their heritage. It is much save in British hands. Besides, let them worry about their economy first... Some sculptures are the last thing they need to worry about.

[Stavroforos]

The Greeks are not capable of properly maintaining their heritage. It is much save in British hands. Besides, let them worry about their economy first... Some sculptures are the last thing they need to worry about.

Aye, Northern Europeans are much better at maintaining their heritage. Carpet bombing of cities, the genocide of many historical communities. But yeah, Greeks putting up a cross on top of the Parthenon or chipping away at some marble is really worse.

[Blaze86420]

Northern Europeans taking care of their cultural heritage:
Before

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After

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[alhoon]

The Greeks are not capable of properly maintaining their heritage. It is much save in British hands. Besides, let them worry about their economy first... Some sculptures are the last thing they need to worry about.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. The Acropolis museum has received quite a lot of support.
The British IMO are not as able to properly mantain our heritage, and they lack the will to do it.


And if you think "some sculptures" are the least of our worries... how about they give us something as "insignificant" as say... the stonehedge for safekeeping?

Because you have to be the descendant of the maker of a work of history in order to be able to appreciate it...

No. But for the descendants of the maker it's more important. I didn't say we bar the English from coming to Greece to see Parthenon. I say these sculptures belong here. They are ours.

[Burnum]

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. The Acropolis museum has received quite a lot of support.
The British IMO are not as able to properly mantain our heritage, and they lack the will to do it.

Except that's not exactly true is it? The Greeks have a history of destroying their monuments, hell before Elgin rescued them, the Greeks were using the Elgin marbles for Quick lime. I'm sympathetic to the return but that is a argument, especially from a modern people who bear almost no similarity to the people who built the bloody thing.

The whole point is moot anyway, it's against the law for Britain to return the Elgin marbles.

[alhoon]

Except that's not exactly true is it? The Greeks have a history of destroying their monuments, hell before Elgin rescued them, the Greeks were using the Elgin marbles for Quick lime.

Link?
I've never heard that. What I heard was that when the Acropolis was held by the Turks and we were besieging Athens, we gave bullets to the Turks stationed in there so they wouldn't break down the monuments to get the lead.

I'm sympathetic to the return but that is a argument, especially from a modern people who bear almost no similarity to the people who built the bloody thing.

Link?
Because we speak the same language, we live in the same place, we honor some traditions handed down from back then and we're descendants of the people that built that monument according to genetic studies.

[Hmmm]

The Greeks are not capable of properly maintaining their heritage. It is much save in British hands. Besides, let them worry about their economy first... Some sculptures are the last thing they need to worry about.

Technically speaking, neither were the British, actually. When the marbles came to the British Museum they were so thoroughly polished that both minor details, and far more importantly, any traces of paint on the marbles were removed (which is a huge bummer for archaeologists today, mind you). By contrast, if I recall, the ones in Greece retain both details and traces of paint, allowing us a fuller appreciation of what they might have looked like.

[Prosaic Visitant]

No, the marbles should stay in Britain. After all, the Greeks would probably try to sell them anyway.

[Condottiere 40K]

Sell them back to the British.

[The Noble Lord]

The English kept some Scottish rock for 600 years, and yet they returned it to them, though they had kept it for such a long time.

Granted, you can't really compare the pinnacle of classical civilization with a rock.

Yes, they did return that rock to Scotland which makes it even more strange why are they reluctant to return the marbles to their home! Uhh, I can only imagine if somebody had something British in possession, how indignant British politicians would be and how they would call "on International law" to be applied and all sorts of indignations and International treaties like they did in regards to the Malvinas islands.
Heh, the British, sometimes it's like they don't realize that this is not the time of Benjamin Disraeli and time of colonialism and cheating others!!

[Prosaic Visitant]

Yes, they did return that rock to Scotland which makes it even more strange why are they reluctant to return the marbles to their home! Uhh, I can only imagine if somebody had something British in possession, how indignant British politicians would be and how they would call "on International law" to be applied and all sorts of indignations and International treaties like they did in regards to the Malvinas islands.
Heh, the British, sometimes it's like they don't realize that this is not the time of Benjamin Disraeli and time of colonialism and cheating others!!

As Vladimir Putin once pointed out; Britain is still in the 1800s, they have not realised that the world has moved on.*

*or something to this efect

[Markas]

Yes, they did return that rock to Scotland which makes it even more strange why are they reluctant to return the marbles to their home! Uhh, I can only imagine if somebody had something British in possession, how indignant British politicians would be and how they would call "on International law" to be applied and all sorts of indignations and International treaties like they did in regards to the Malvinas islands.

You're right, we should completely disregard international law, that would totally make us look less like an 19th century imperial power.

Heh, the British, sometimes it's like they don't realize that this is not the time of Benjamin Disraeli and time of colonialism and cheating others!!

Then I guess France doesn't realise it's not under Napoleon and Germany not under Bismarck.

As Vladimir Putin once pointed out; Britain is still in the 1800s, they have not realised that the world has moved on.*

Then I'm sure he'll have no problems remembering it's not 1945 and give back all the stuff they nicked from Berlin. The Eberswalde Hoard and Priam's Treasure for starters. Given they denied they had it for fifty years one can only imagine what they have hidden away.