Steampunk/Samurai UPDATED August 17 (with LINK, check OP/got eye candy pics inside as well)

[LordKailas]

I downloaded PFM just now so i shall have a play with it then report back what i can possibly come up with. I like the idea that alot of the actuall WW1 units are not too far evolved from what we have now. For sharpshooters a simple idea would be to maybe increase the range to 200 jump the accuracy a bit and drop unit size and hey presto you have snipers. I also really like the idea of shock troops for scaling castle walls, so in Kachi armour but with imperial look uniforms underneath with katanas and dual revolvers. The stormtroopers.

Anyway im gona have a play around and see what i can do.

[Connor Mulhern]

I downloaded PFM just now so i shall have a play with it then report back what i can possibly come up with. I like the idea that alot of the actuall WW1 units are not too far evolved from what we have now. For sharpshooters a simple idea would be to maybe increase the range to 200 jump the accuracy a bit and drop unit size and hey presto you have snipers. I also really like the idea of shock troops for scaling castle walls, so in Kachi armour but with imperial look uniforms underneath with katanas and dual revolvers. The stormtroopers.

Anyway im gona have a play around and see what i can do.

I would increase the accuracy, really decrease the unit side (Like on the large scale, 25) and have the effective range be 300 m (The effective range is 500 meters at a minimum) but keep it low enough where it is fun and yet somewhat realistic, and make the unit fairly expensive. I would also keep the reload rate lower than other units due to the fact that snipers would have to aim it, and account for the wind and whatnot. I would have the new basic range be 150, and maybe have a "Dug in" that increase the range to 200 yet lowers movement speed by a ton and yet slightly reduces the chance of being hit

[Erwin Rommel]

Just a quick question.

There would obviously be two super factions that being an "Imperial" or something along that line and a "Shogunate" or something along that line.

Would you guys prefer if one of this two super factions have a more steampunk samurai look while the other has a more line infantr/conventional look OR steampunk samurai all around?

[esejony65]

For imperial faction i propose to be the steampunk one, modern units, heavy weaponry, ironclads, modern type economy (factories and stuff)...
by the counterpart this faction will suffer the lack of morale and mele skill on his units because they stop using
the tradicional filosofy in favor of the western one and regular/elite units will cost more than any averange traditional unit, also revellions will apear more easily.

For shogunal will be the traditional one, skilled units and agents, samurais, nijas, traditional economy (artisans, farmers...), loyal population (so you can carge them high taxes and leave then without garrison), the retun of specific dojos...
But they lack of modern weaponry so they will need inport some modern units like machineguns, artillery, steamers...(that will not be cheap)
They also need more turns to recruit units because all all the time needed to train those units properly.

well i think that all.

[stumpndum]

Well i was thinking that the imps would be trying as hard as they could to copy the foreign power's, colonial uniforms, generic training area's and the like while the Shogun is the more steampunky one, they kept traditional ideals but upgraded with modern armaments, i think if you head back a page you can see my faction list idea.

[flopsies]

Could this possibly be the best idea ever? I'd be fine with the traditional units being equipped with this.

[flopsies]

sorry for double post, but so they are both equal, the war lasted much longer, into world war 1, and lasted even after that, and so the 2 sides are fighting a trench war in hokkaido, with the shogunate forces and the imperials having equal amounts of tech, but imperials can get better ranged units, but when shogunate units get in close, they can really take on the imperials with katanas

[Erwin Rommel]

i think if you head back a page you can see my faction list idea.

Yes I'm aware of that actually, hence the question on to the people coz who knows, maybe some prefer steampunk samurai all around.

[stumpndum]

Steampunks awesome, even without samurai's ... and now for something a little bit offtopic i just had an image of a steampunk data masamune, bolted on eye patch, cranks on his arm guards, steam coming out of a backback tube...

[LordKailas]

I think, personally, it would look better if the Shogunate had the steampunky samurai look, buuuut as i am a lover (and actively dress as) of steampunk then why not punk up the imperials a bit too, with just more steam and machinery than is really needed What do you think?

The decision really defines the mod as either a loosely historical one or a plain fantasy steampunk mod!

Actually if we sort ourselves a creative team this could well be voted on?

[Erwin Rommel]

why not punk up the imperials a bit too, with just more steam and machinery than is really needed What do you think?

men in British marine uniforms and jingasa/brodie COLORED IN KHAKI complete with back pack and in light infantry formation vs steampunk samurai.

Although for the samurai look, we'll have to do away with the sode shoulder guards, find away to get boots on or at least darken the colors, oh and the do-cuirass and kabuto should definitely be an okegawa-do, do away with the lacing to make that "modern" look.

Then experiment with combinations, all arty crews will sport the pointy tosa riflemen hat, then maybe a stormtrooper samurai but instead of kabuto, it'll be wearing a "shaguma"

Another is, would you still prefer the backpack or the sashimono?

[flopsies]

could we put the sashimono on the backpack? Or next to it?

[Slayer113]

Ok, not sure if you guys have a story for this yet because i'm to lazy to read all of the posts. Anyway, good background story here IMO.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"^ Open this for aesthetics ^"

Story:

The year is 1916 and WWI is in full swing. Battles rage across the land, thousands die each day from gas attacks, and artillery. Hundreds more die each day from battle wounds and starvation. The Central Powers are losing more and more men each day. They need a way to change the tide of war. The top scientists from Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy are gathered in Berlin. After 3 months of top secret research and development the machine that will end the war is complete. They have created "The Time Gate". The Time Gate will allow the Central Powers to not only win the war but take over the world. The Time Gate will open a link between any two points in time. They open a link between 1916 and 16th-century feudal Japan. The Samurai emerge from the gate, translators quickly explain what is going on but the Samurai leaders do not understand. Then, one man simply writes, "War" on a map. The Samurai leaders nod their heads and go back through the gate. One year later in 1917 they return with massive armies. The Central Powers outfit them with the best weapons and equipment of their time. The Return of The Samurai has begun.


Ya thats about it, not the best story ever written but I hope it will help.

[tzarmarko]

Well if you need help im no good for modding but I am a good writer so if you need faction descriptions or such sign me up! Also, if you need any research done I am in love with the time period so I would be glad to help. (P.s. I also admire steampunk )
tzarmarko

[The_Commodore]

While I certainly understand why you might want the Shogunate powers to be close quarters focused I think it might make more sense for things to play out slightly differently.

The most important thing about the Samurai (the thing that makes them interesting) is their specialized training, and their ability to fight in ways that unprofessional soldiers cannot. This kind of specialization in war is typical of time periods long after the most recent industrial revolutions, which tend to create cheap easy to use weapons mass produced in large factories, thereby dissolving old fashioned skill based feudal ranks in favor of massive regular armies.

If you wanted to keep the Samurai recognizable in this regard, It would make the most sense to look at today's special forces and specialists. Technically, the Japanese sense of honor would make them avoid covert roles, the modern battlefield's primary skill is stealth, so it would make sense for the samurai to have to adopt this. (the easiest role that the samurai could fall into would be that of the fighter pilot, the same way they fell into the role of cavalry, despite starting as archers)

The second noticeable aspect of the samurai was their thirst for honor in battle. For combat to be viewed as honorable, it needed to require skill (going back to my earlier point), a reasonable degree of fairness (so, noob tubes, artillery, commandos(as in saboteurs, and snipers), poison gas and such are most likely out), and it kind of had to be noticed. I would guess it was for this last reason that the samurai went on to adopt the role as Heavy or Shock infantry, and the weapon that came with it, namely the katana.

For these reasons, I would say that the samurai would most likely fall into a similar role as the marines in modern history (from about the Spanish-American war to the present), namely as higher trained shock infantry, with a mission to primarily take ground (generally not defend it, that's the army's job). but they would differ in the fact that they would most likely not include snipers (who would be seen as cowardly), or use shotguns, machine-pistols, or other trench brooms (which would be seen as crude), and be equipped to a much higher standard than the regular troops.

In conclusion, my best guess would be that Samurai would focus on specialized roles such as light machine-gunner/automatic rifleman (WWI saw the introduction of the BAR, the Madsen and more), designated marksman (not snipers, still in the main fight, but maybe using a 2x long eye relief scope on a normal battle rifle), tankers, fighter pilots (maybe not bombers, cause of fairness); and on being advanced shock troops (or storm troopers) armed with bayoneted rifles, pistols, katanas, and possibly larger sub machine guns such as the MP-18

Seeing as they had much more in the ways of resources for their equipment, the samurai would be expected to carry custom, higher quality weapons, and might also be equipped with other, more modern weapons which saw limited deployment, as a result of being experimental technologies in some cases. They might be seen using semi, or fully automatic weapons (a semi-auto rifle, the remington model 8 was developed in 1903, and the famous Colt M1911 was developed in...well I don't think i have to insult your intelligence[I feel like the samurai would be especially attracted to semi-automatic rifles, which could cause much more damage while still requiring skill to use]). Many automatic type weapons saw limited deployment because of their costs, reliability issues, and advanced(or at least additional) training required to operate them, all of which could be taken care of by the means and mentality of the samurai class (weapons could possibly be created more precisely by Japanese artisans, and therefore less prone to failure...very specific attention to detail, including deburring of internal parts, and careful materials selection and quality control have been known to produce much more reliable firearms)

P.S. (I think they'd be crazy about flamethrowers...very dramatic and fear inspiring, but I have no good argument for why it would fit them)

In Summary:
I think Samurai would tend towards:

• Vehicle operation (tanks, planes, and maybe motorcycles...because BADASS)
• Skill Based roles: Automatic Rifleman, Designated Marksman
• Shock Infantry
• Higher quality, custom, and possibly experimental equipment(semi and fully automatics)

And would avoid:

• "Crude" roles and weapons such as explosives, and "trench brooms"
• "Cowardly roles" such as sniper, commando, artilleryman, and possibly bomber pilot

That's my two cents. Ciao


(god, I just said "Ciao" I feel like such a ponce)

[Erwin Rommel]

Unfortunately there wont be any vehicles, yes the concept art shows a nice tank complete with sashimono or is it nobori banners on the side which is an awesome touch.

As for the samurai and the Shogunate factions in general, maybe do away with line infantry behavior ingame for its main infantry, you know to make it all look modern and WWI-esque. Of course there HAS to be a shock trooper role, what about reviving that "Bulletproof" Samurai of the Sengoku Jidai DLC, well similar looking like make them wear smooth do-gosuku, zunari kabuto AND a red mempo face mask, then add stun grenades from ninjas and a banzai capability.



As for the enemies of the Shogun/Steampunk/Samurai, why its the new modern Imperial Japanese Army of the Meiji Emperor........or maybe the Taisho Emperor, depending on how the backstory works out........... Not the Showa Emperor though, TOO controversial.

[The_Commodore]

"Crude" and "cowardly" weapons would still exist in japanese forces, but primarily be the staple of the ashigaru or ninja. Also, [i don't know if this is possible] it might be a good idea to bring back the fort mechanic from Rome to make entrenchments, and allow seiges in areas without castles.

Certain entities, such as machine gun teams, moartar/grenade launcher teams, crew served weapons, and sniper teams would exist as dramatically smaller units. It might also be a good idea to use two types for rifleman shock troops, the one with the naginata samurai melee animations(for when swords are attached as bayonets) as well as one with the katana samurai melee animations(for when they are free).


As far as character armor and design goes. I think that the samurai armor can stay pretty close to traditional if we just incorperate some more modern influences, such as riot gear, gas masks, and some modern-ish ballistic armor. The russian SN-42("Stalynoi Nagrudnik" is Russian for "steel bib") (which was used in World War II, but could have been designed anywhere from 1900 on) would be a good starting place for armor used by mounted troops (it was too heavy for foot infantry to wear, but protected machine-gunners and tankers well)




As for implementation of automatic weapons fully automatic bursts could be considered a single grapeshot like attack, semi automatic fire could work by dramatically reducing the reload time if you do a few things:

1: reduce the TOTAL ammo count of the unit to the magazine size
2: create a hidden special maneuver which would replenish unit ammunition

You could do this for semi-automatic firearms, or just pull apart the code in the Fall of the Samurai they use for western revolvers


There are two vehicle units that I think could be done with minimal work:

Motorcycle cavalry...Just take normal cavalry and change the models and animations

and planes...Planes would not actually appear in combat, but instead be agents, which can sabotage armies, and assasinate eachother, because putting aircraft in a ground based tactical RTS only really works with helicopters, and only sometimes even then...it would be pretty easy to add prerendered animations for air-air and air-ground combat. Plus, this matches air combat doctrine more closely anyways. they didn't truly participate in battles in real time, but instead softened targets for infantry combat. (give them as much Action points as fuel makes sense, and have them suffer massive attrition)

Also, I think if it's possible the mod should include new tactical maps which have custom fortifications (trenches).

Since the faster reload times of bolt action weapons and semi auto weapons effectively ended line fighting tactics, I feel like this mod might be more at home on a modern platform, perhaps world in conflict.

[Erwin Rommel]

I think that the samurai armor can stay pretty close to traditional if we just incorperate some more modern influences, such as riot gear, gas masks, and some modern-ish ballistic armor.

Anything that entails model changing would still be not possible within SII, unfortunately.

So to compromise, scour the EXISTING models and find the best combination, smooth cuirass, zunari kabuto and minimal shoulder guards, anything with lacing is done away with.

BTW, are the field fortifications from ETW/NTW still available in S2? Albeit just hidden away, coz I remember, there was those anti-cav stakes once that was still there in S2.

[tzarmarko]

Ok, so basically heres my story line:

Alliegances: Southern Confederacy, Maritime Republic, or the Free State of Kyoto (2 regions only).
Eruopean Alligences: The Central Powers: Germany(Prussia)
The Allied Entente: Great Britain
The Imperialists: Russia
ALSO: Some occasional events could be European Invasions. Some countires (like Russia) will occasionaly invade parts of Japan with a large fleet and moderate size army, depending on nation. One country will only be able to attack once in a campaign.

1914: War breaks out in Europe, you are pressured by many nations to join a side.
Early 1914: The rebellion occurs: The peasents of the South all bind together and form the separate "Confederacy of Southern Nippon". They begin to adhere to the old samurai ways. They are terrible at using modern machinery. If you give them a gatlin gun they will mown down their entire army with it, not hitting a single enemy etc.
Early 1914: In Kyoto, the Emperor is murdered. The North secedes as the "Maritime Republic of Nippon". They are very modernist and are always looking for a chance to get new and better technolgies from the Europeans. They also, have the best fleets around.
Late 1914: The unclaimed area in the capital of former Japan binds together after months of confusing to create the Free State of Kyoto. This country is unplayable and can be swayed to either side by "gifts" or conquest.

Yep, thats what I got so far. Hope you like it

[The_Commodore]

Weren't the japanese with the allies in WW I?