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Thread: War of the West Guidelines

  1. #1
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default War of the West Guidelines

    Good day gentlemen,

    Since it has been a while I didn't update the OP and guides, I decided to remake the presentation and introducing the latest Unit Balance Guide called Revised Combat Realism (RCR). Here's a brief list of the rework made compared to the older version I have made:

    Revised Combat Realism (22/10/2012)
    • Reworked all Unit Categories, more direct and easier to understand.
    • Revised the stats and attributes given to units and the categories are now much more differentiated in term of stats.
    • A reworked Unit Quality system along introducing an Equipment Quality system.
    • A complete revision on weapon stats (both melee and ranged weapons)
    • A complete revision on all the armour and shield stats.
    • Revised bonuses given for Defense Skills, Attack Speed and Movement Speed.
    • More friendly modding.


    Enjoy the reading, feedback and comments are appreciated!

    Regards.
    Polycarpe
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Polycarpe; October 22, 2012 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Arandir Tur-Anion's Avatar I Telda Tingilindenna
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Thanks for the informations.
    Mundus Bellicus : the french total war forum
    Diarum Strategorum : L'actualité des Totals War et de leurs mods en français
    Other mods

  3. #3
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Updated the Real Combat guideline at the OP.

  4. #4
    Emperor Hantscher's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    I'm a little confused, how do you train units? How is the weapon quality upgraded from Inferior to exceptional? I've never seen any option to upgrade that kind of stuff in game. Mind you, I'm quite new to medieval as I stated playing Total War series with empire, only downgraded to Medieval 2 for better mods like WotW

    Is this just guides for modders on how to physically make the units?

  5. #5
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Hantscher View Post
    I'm a little confused, how do you train units? How is the weapon quality upgraded from Inferior to exceptional? I've never seen any option to upgrade that kind of stuff in game. Mind you, I'm quite new to medieval as I stated playing Total War series with empire, only downgraded to Medieval 2 for better mods like WotW

    Is this just guides for modders on how to physically make the units?
    This guide is a system made by me inspired by other sources (Real Combat for instance), it's basically classifying each unit into categories and qualities and it's been made by me and the game is simply following the stats I give to the units by following the chart of the guide, so mainly, its basically for modding purpose. For now, this guide is only relating to the unit stats, the recruitment is still into consideration but it was mainly a small idea on what the recruitment may look. Hope I've answered your questions.

    Regards.

  6. #6
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Finally, after hours of work, the new Unit Guide is released! You can take a look by downloading it at the OP of this thread.

    Regards.
    Polycarpe

  7. #7
    Dearg Doom's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Look forward to reading - will get back with opinion's and views etc

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    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Polycarpe,

    Another great piece of work, easy to understand and a great layout, plus Rep













    'Proud to be patronised by cedric37(My Father and My Guardian)

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    Polycarpe,

    Another great piece of work, easy to understand and a great layout, plus Rep
    Thank you mate, in the upcoming days, I'll release a patch for the demo that incorporate this new balance.

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    Wareg's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Almost all seems fine, specially I like new missile statistics, thanks a lot + rep

    As usually I also have some suggestions (I know, I'm annoying ):

    -skirmish archers have many adventages: they have a bit more power, better accuracy and haven't got ''area'' attribute. Their range is slighty shorter (75% of normal archer range) but It seems that It still isn't enough recompense (of course It is only my feeling and I will check It when patch will be realised). In practise only few casualties will be inflicted in very long range, so skirmish archers will be too effective comparing to normal.
    I suggest even shorter range, 90-100 of range during amush in forest or gorge seems enough, but in open field it will be risky. Skirmish archers haven't got ''area'', so they aiming individual targets, and it will be very difficult with range over 100 m...

    -As I remember later verion of WOTW will be focused on HYW times. So I think that It will be very important to reflect changes that occured in that time, mainly in French and English armies, also on battlefield. One of most important changes was dismounting of French knights as response to deadly for mainly unprotected horses hail of arrows. I see that you give extra armour points for armoured horses but I think It isn't correct. Let me explain:
    In MTW II horse and horsemen is inseparable complex, death of one of components (horse or man) is equal to death of whole complex (although in reality It wasn't necessarily true).
    Now in WOTW for ex. sergeant, on unarmoured horse have same defence against arrows as dismounted sergeant. But most of surface of complex is umprotected skin of horse (although stronger than unprotected man), so It isn't fair, is It?
    You added +2 for archers against cavalry but If I remember correctly to reflect ''domino effect'' of charging cavalry.
    I thought about It and this is effect:
    We can set base armour factor of unprotected horse, for ex. 3 for war horse (and 1 or 2 for ponny)- It isn't high value but higher than for unprotected man. In case of for ex. Sergeants armour value is 9(hauberk + aketon). So average value is (9+3)/2=6, and It is armour value of complex (mounted sergeants)
    Another example, English knights: what I see is that they horses mostly have padded armour - 4 value (''Gambeson/leather armour, superior''). 3 is value of unprotected horse so we have 7(3+4) of armour of armoured horse. 12 is armour of horsemen (coat of plates over mail, superior) so armour of English knights is 9 or 10 ((12+7)/2)
    Analogously shield and defence skills should be halved - horses hanen't got shields and don't parry blows!
    To compensate It attack can be increased (comparing to infantry) - due to higher position of horsemen (more powerful blows) and knocking and biting horse.
    I fought some battles with cavalry statistics changed this way, and charge of for ex. mounted sergeants against archers is really risky. It is better way to attack dismounted, as It was in HYW battles. Try It yourself.
    I hope you will discuss with me about such idea of system, I'm waiting for criticism.

    -last thing: second verion of WOTW will end in half of XV century, so why did you add statistics of Gothic amour, Musket or even... 16th century full plate armour? Are you planning to expand WOTW to 16 century?
    Last edited by Wareg; October 24, 2012 at 03:00 PM.

  11. #11
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Almost all seems fine, specially I like new missile statistics, thanks a lot + rep

    As usually I also have some suggestions (I know, I'm annoying ):

    -skirmish archers have many adventages: they have a bit more power, better accuracy and haven't got ''area'' attribute. Their range is slighty shorter (75% of normal archer range) but It seems that It still isn't enough recompense (of course It is only my feeling and I will check It when patch will be realised). In practise only few casualties will be inflicted in very long range, so skirmish archers will be too effective comparing to normal.
    I suggest even shorter range, 90-100 of range during amush in forest or gorge seems enough, but in open field it will be risky. Skirmish archers haven't got ''area'', so they aiming individual targets, and it will be very difficult with range over 100 m...

    -As I remember later verion of WOTW will be focused on HYW times. So I think that It will be very important to reflect changes that occured in that time, mainly in French and English armies, also on battlefield. One of most important changes was dismounting of French knights as response to deadly for mainly unprotected horses hail of arrows. I see that you give extra armour points for armoured horses but I think It isn't correct. Let me explain:
    In MTW II horse and horsemen is inseparable complex, death of one of components (horse or man) is equal to death of whole complex (although in reality It wasn't necessarily true).
    Now in WOTW for ex. sergeant, on unarmoured horse have same defence against arrows as dismounted sergeant. But most of surface of complex is umprotected skin of horse (although stronger than unprotected man), so It isn't fair, is It?
    You added +2 for archers against cavalry but If I remember correctly to reflect ''domino effect'' of charging cavalry.
    I thought about It and this is effect:
    We can set base armour factor of unprotected horse, for ex. 3 for war horse (and 1 or 2 for ponny)- It isn't high value but higher than for unprotected man. In case of for ex. Sergeants armour value is 9(hauberk + aketon). So average value is (9+3)/2=6, and It is armour value of complex (mounted sergeants)
    Another example, English knights: what I see is that they horses mostly have padded armour - 4 value (''Gambeson/leather armour, superior''). 3 is value of unprotected horse so we have 7(3+4) of armour of armoured horse. 12 is armour of horsemen (coat of plates over mail, superior) so armour of English knights is 9 or 10 ((12+7)/2)
    Analogously shield and defence skills should be halved - horses hanen't got shields and don't parry blows!
    To compensate It attack can be increased (comparing to infantry) - due to higher position of horsemen (more powerful blows) and knocking and biting horse.
    I fought some battles with cavalry statistics changed this way, and charge of for ex. mounted sergeants against archers is really risky. It is better way to attack dismounted, as It was in HYW battles. Try It yourself.
    I hope you will discuss with me about such idea of system, I'm waiting for criticism.

    -last thing: second verion of WOTW will end in half of XV century, so why did you add statistics of Gothic amour, Musket or even... 16th century full plate armour? Are you planning to expand WOTW to 16 century?
    This is a resource for other games as well. My mod, for example, is one of many using his stats.

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


  12. #12
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Almost all seems fine, specially I like new missile statistics, thanks a lot + rep

    As usually I also have some suggestions (I know, I'm annoying ):

    -skirmish archers have many adventages: they have a bit more power, better accuracy and haven't got ''area'' attribute. Their range is slighty shorter (75% of normal archer range) but It seems that It still isn't enough recompense (of course It is only my feeling and I will check It when patch will be realised). In practise only few casualties will be inflicted in very long range, so skirmish archers will be too effective comparing to normal.
    I suggest even shorter range, 90-100 of range during amush in forest or gorge seems enough, but in open field it will be risky. Skirmish archers haven't got ''area'', so they aiming individual targets, and it will be very difficult with range over 100 m...
    The range of skirmisher archers have 40% of a typical missile archer. To compensate, obviously, they will have a better accuracy due to closer range as well +1 attack since there is more power at closer range than long range. Right now, the skirmishers are quite potent and once the patch will be up, you will see the difference.


    -As I remember later verion of WOTW will be focused on HYW times. So I think that It will be very important to reflect changes that occured in that time, mainly in French and English armies, also on battlefield. One of most important changes was dismounting of French knights as response to deadly for mainly unprotected horses hail of arrows. I see that you give extra armour points for armoured horses but I think It isn't correct. Let me explain:
    In MTW II horse and horsemen is inseparable complex, death of one of components (horse or man) is equal to death of whole complex (although in reality It wasn't necessarily true).
    Now in WOTW for ex. sergeant, on unarmoured horse have same defence against arrows as dismounted sergeant. But most of surface of complex is umprotected skin of horse (although stronger than unprotected man), so It isn't fair, is It?
    You added +2 for archers against cavalry but If I remember correctly to reflect ''domino effect'' of charging cavalry.
    I thought about It and this is effect:
    We can set base armour factor of unprotected horse, for ex. 3 for war horse (and 1 or 2 for ponny)- It isn't high value but higher than for unprotected man. In case of for ex. Sergeants armour value is 9(hauberk + aketon). So average value is (9+3)/2=6, and It is armour value of complex (mounted sergeants)
    Another example, English knights: what I see is that they horses mostly have padded armour - 4 value (''Gambeson/leather armour, superior''). 3 is value of unprotected horse so we have 7(3+4) of armour of armoured horse. 12 is armour of horsemen (coat of plates over mail, superior) so armour of English knights is 9 or 10 ((12+7)/2)
    Analogously shield and defence skills should be halved - horses hanen't got shields and don't parry blows!
    To compensate It attack can be increased (comparing to infantry) - due to higher position of horsemen (more powerful blows) and knocking and biting horse.
    I fought some battles with cavalry statistics changed this way, and charge of for ex. mounted sergeants against archers is really risky. It is better way to attack dismounted, as It was in HYW battles. Try It yourself.
    I hope you will discuss with me about such idea of system, I'm waiting for criticism.
    Allow me to explain why I give armour bonuses for bards:
    • As you mentioned, both the mount and the horseman are together in term of casualty (which is quite unfortunate). By giving more armour due to the bard, it is to make them ,indirectly, distinctive from mount and the man but gameplay and engine wise, I can't. Otherwise, cavalry will be very in disadvantage when they are in melee.
    • Also, bards were good protection after all, able to reflect melee and ranged attacks but of course there are some open regions (cannot cover the whole body, if so, the horse wouldn't move properly).
    • Even if they have an increased armour protection due to bards, many units have bonuses vs mounted units (archers, spearmen, polearm) so the balance is quite respected but I have to deal with the limits.
    • Horsemen have an excellent melee attack to represent the horseman attacking from higher position.


    -last thing: second verion of WOTW will end in half of XV century, so why did you add statistics of Gothic amour, Musket or even... 16th century full plate armour? Are you planning to expand WOTW to 16 century?
    Maybe. (*cough* *cough*, War of the Roses).

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    This is a resource for other games as well. My mod, for example, is one of many using his stats.
    Yes, this guide can be applied in most mod but some slight alterations may be needed for Middle East and Far East equipment but it shouldn't be a problem. Just give me credit for your mod and you are good to go.
    Last edited by Polycarpe; October 24, 2012 at 07:33 PM.

  13. #13
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    Yes, this guide can be applied in most mod but some slight alterations may be needed for Middle East and Far East equipment but it shouldn't be a problem. Just give me credit for your mod and you are good to go.
    *Ahem* I already have talked to you about it, mate

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiğinn Veğr: Total War


  14. #14
    Wareg's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: War of the West Guidelines

    The range of skirmisher archers have 40% of a typical missile archer. To compensate, obviously, they will have a better accuracy due to closer range as well +1 attack since there is more power at closer range than long range. Right now, the skirmishers are quite potent and once the patch will be up, you will see the difference.
    I don't understand something... 40%? For ex. normal superior composite bow archers will have 200 range, their skirmish counterpart 150 range so It is 75%, not 40%... Normal crude long bow archers 170, skirmish crude long bow archers 120 - 70%. Range of 120-150 seems too long for skirmish archers, If we take into account fact that they are aiming individual targets, about 50% will be better (range 85-100).
    Even if they have an increased armour protection due to bards, many units have bonuses vs mounted units (archers, spearmen, polearm) so the balance is quite respected but I have to deal with the limits.
    I think that game, set in history, as WOTW should have also educational duty (in addition to giving fun ). Player, thanks to gameplay, should begin to understand that frontal cavalry charge against pikemen isn't good idea (cause It wasn't good idea also in reality, in past).
    Same in case of knight attack against archers. It was better idea to attack dismounted against archers and French adopted this innovation. Now player certainly will choose mounted attack - +2 premium for archers is simply insufficient comparing to much slower speed of dismounted men-at-arms.
    Player, who know something about history and will try to attack enemy's archers dismounted cause ''It is historicaly accurate, and was more effective than mounted charge'' will be badly suprised.
    I pay attention to It cause It was really importan change, in battle of Crecy all men-at-arms fought mounted, 10 years later, in battle of Poitiers, only 300 (of 8000 men-at-arms)...

    Now, you said that It is impossible to reflect due to game limitation. But I give you idea how to find solution. What do you think about my system? If horse and horsemen is inseparable complex, isn't It fair to give him avarage values of both horse and horsemen? Horsemen has for ex. 4 shield value, but horse hasn't got shield so has 0 value, It seems fair to give for complex 2 ((4+0)/2) shield value, cause any enemy's weapon, arrow, spear, axe or lance may hit horsemen with shield as well as horse without shield.
    It seems to work better than bonuses equal againt all mounts, no matter how well protected. In my system mailed knight on mailed horse will have similar armour to dismounted version, while knight in plate armour on unarmoured horse will have much lower armour statisctics than dismounted counterpart.

    If you think that my idea of system is illogical or defective, please tell me why.

    Horsemen have an excellent melee attack to represent the horseman attacking from higher position
    Fine, I've written about It cause I simply haven't found info about It in Guide.
    Maybe. (*cough* *cough*, War of the Roses).

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