History Buffs, Help!

[SilentLamb]

So I know Fall of the Samurai is based on the conflict between the Emperor and the ruling Shogunate, but I was hoping someone out there could help me understand a little better what is going on in the time period.

As far as I am lead to believe, both sides of the conflict were pursuing Western influences with the ultimate goal of modernizing Japan. So does the Modernization mechanic exist simply to represent the peoples dissatisfaction with modernizing Japan, is it then "reasonable" in regards to the game to resist modernization as both sides.

Or was the Shogunate generally keeping to a more traditional route. I ask because when I play, I generally have to keep to what ever my faction really did. If I play the Shogunate and they resisted heavy modernization then I will have to do the same.

Thank you in advance.

[Dileos]

I was wondering this as well, I'm particularly curious about the factions attitudes towards western influences.

The intro movie for the Shogunate factions shows that they have relatively open minded view (it would seem), due to them welcoming trade with the United States, and being angered over the Emperors expulsion of foreigners. Meanwhile the Imperial intro movie makes the Emperor look like a bigoted kid with a Napoleon complex.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Well, from what I understand, the Imperial side wanted to keep Japan, Japan. They wanted to expel the West, and keep to traditional Japanese values.


The Shogun, on the other hand.... I guess he wanted more trade and relations with the West. Im not sure though.


Also, something I find interesting. Even though the Shogun was fighting the Emperor's armies, he was NOT fighting the Emperor. No one was fighting the emperor.


It wasn't like the Shogun was going to topple the Emperor, and declare himself kind, or something.

[General Cool]

Historically, the Shogunate accepted trade and exposure to western ideas and technology. Many Japanese were horrified of this, and united behind the Emperor and the motto " Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians."

So initially the Shogunate was more pro-westernizing than the Imperials.

However, the Imperials realized (ironically) that to defeat the Shogunate they had to westerinize as well.

Imperials won as they westernized faster than Shogunate, and then go on a westernize spree that pays off 30 some years later when they whoop the Russians.

BTW: if you are going for realism, the French aided the Shogunate, and the British indirectly and later directly aided the Imperials.

[Darth VeX]

The Shogun was the first to really begin accepting Western ideas. There are several books on the period that compare the Shogun and the Emperor on a personal level that actually helps explain the differences and how they played out in the "wars" of the period.

The Shogun was interested in Western ways of warfare, most particularly in individual soldiers and officers who could relay stories of battlefield strategy. He also became heavily interested in Western ideas in philosophy and religion, though it was more of an intellectual exercise for him. The Shogun's contact and trade with the West (particularly the French) was SLOW, and methodical.

On the other hand, once the Emperor's advisers and handlers finally let the Emperor begin seeking council with foreign advisers, his son Mutsuhito (later Emperor Meiji), was enamored with ANYTHING Western. He was especially fond of science, technology, and discovery. While his father (Emperor Komei) fought the Shogun and the Shogun eventually resigned, his father soon died and Meiji ascended to the throne. Upon which, the westernization of Japan kicked into high gear.

This only further enraged those who were upset that the Shogun resigned, and there were further conflicts which the now-more modern Imperial forces defeated.

---

That's the period history of the Shogun and Emperor(s) of this period ... in a nutshell.

[SilentLamb]

So, essentially. The Shogunate opened up relations with the West in hopes of modernizing, but they were doing it slowly. The Emperor used the people disliking this to rally them behind his cause. Then went super modern while the Shogunate lagged behind?

[Darth VeX]

So, essentially. The Shogunate opened up relations with the West in hopes of modernizing, but they were doing it slowly. The Emperor used the people disliking this to rally them behind his cause. Then went super modern while the Shogunate lagged behind?

Basically. Both Emperor Komei and his son, Emperor Meiji used campaigns of anti-West sentiments as well as anti-Shogun sentiments, even though the Shogun himself became basically a recluse before Meiji took power.

[HaveFallen]

Ohhh, this is crazy.. I went into this game thinking the Shogunate was the traditional, katana-samurai armor wielders and the Imperials as the westernized factions!

I feel stupid right now, and perhaps I had too much of The Last Samurai in my head. It freaked me out when I went into the game and both sides had almost the same units.
.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

That's what I thought too, at first.

It's because anyone who isn't from Japan gets tought nothing at all about it.

Nothing, at all.

[lawandorder82]

Both the Shogun was for trade emperor was a hypocrite watch the last samurai with tom cruise

[Magno]

Historically speaking the Imperial army was the modern of the two, not because of the emperor's will but because the Damyo who allied themselves with the Emperor were more open to modernization (specifically Satsuma and Tosa). The modernization came prior to the war itself. The Shogun, like the emperor, depended on the loyalty of Damyo to bolster their armies consecuently though those that were more modernized chose to ally themselves with the emperor betraying the Shogun leaving the Shogunate with a small modernized army , which comprised the shoguns guard, and a large army of traditionaly armed units.

With respect to the conflict itself the powderceg got its first spark when the Chosu domain rebelled for the second time (as a consecuence of having los over 2/3 of the holdings when the tokugawa shogunate came to power) which the shogunate responded with an armed force led by a general from the Satsuma doamain (the most modernized domain and the same general who led the shoguns army during the last expedition to Chosu) named Saga. This general betrayed the shogun and instead led the Chosu against the Shogun defeating its armies. This sign of weakness prompted anti shogun sentiment to spread further allowing for the power hungry Tosa and Satsuma domains to advocate for the emperor's return to power. Incidentaly both the emperor and shogun died, their succesors, Meiji and Yoshinobu continued the dispute. The shogun yoshinobu tried to reform but Satsuma, choshu and tosa led a coupt to depose the shogun in favor of the emperor of 15 years Meiji. Yoshinobu resigned peacefully and the emperor retained much of the political of the shogun's administration intact which didn't sit well with the emperor's damyo which advocated for the total eradication of the shogunate from all aspects of politics in Japan. In spite of this Yoshinobu assembled an army from Edo and marched to defeat the Emperor's forces thus starting what is properly the Boshin war.

[lamefellow]

Both the Shogun was for trade emperor was a hypocrite watch the last samurai with tom cruise

That is by no means a historically accurate movie. Mostly just about one American miraculously making history with a bullet resistant vest. Oh and in a nod to the past, he gets the Japanese woman too.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Not bullet resistant. Bullet reflecting.

[lawandorder82]

It is look it up in books

[The Dutch Devil]

Thread moved to historical research center.

[Blackwolf]

Don't forget the Shogun was forced into allowing open trade with the West after the Americans used gunboat diplomacy on them

[Diglytron]

Don't forget the Shogun was forced into allowing open trade with the West after the Americans used gunboat diplomacy on them

yes this ehhhhh.. i think so.

[Blackwolf]

Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure that is what happened.

[RollingWave]

The westernization wasn't so much of a factor in terms of siding, the primary motives behind the whole thing was far simplier, it's to settle unfinished busneiss left behind some 200+ years ago when the Tokugawa Shogunate first formed, if we take the major S2TW clans for example, only the Takeda and Hojo were really destroyed during the period (well and the Ikki-Ikko if you count them) everyone else had survived to some extend, and most to a considerable extend (the Oda ironically were the least well survived despite being the one to actually first come close to winning). Everyone else pretty much just nominally submitted to the Tokugawa, who used a series of buercracy and diplomacy to keep a relative balance in place.

That balance began to break towards the later half of the 19th C for a variety of reason, western influence was what the biggest part of it (but not entirely), the Satsuma fief (aka the Shimazu clan.) espeically had benifited from the trade comming from Europe more than most other places, so despite a relatively low Koku (since before that agricultural power was still the greatest base of power calculation, but the foreign trade began to break this established trend) they had considerablly stronger leverage than what the Shoguante's original design was (most of the major surviving clan's fief were reduced considerablly as a means to limit their threat).

In short, the Black Ship incident started to break the previously established fragil balance of the Shogunate, this isn't really that unlike what happened at the end of other previous shogunate, including that the Emperor's court was involved in many of the schimings. many clans had long grudges to settle with the Tokugawas anyway and/or simply look to better themself going foward, so it really only took some sembalance of weakness of the shogunate to setoff a wildfire, it also didn't help that at this point the Shogunate also had a succession crisis

[Blackwolf]

Ah thanks for the summary. I wonder what would have happened if Oda Nobunaga wouldn't have died so soon. Assassination right?