Economics of Rome

[wulfgar610]

We Occidentals like to think we're hot stuff and bearers of a greater civilization. We tend to forget the last great Great Western Civilization blew out the candles and disappeared into the darkness for a thousand years.
Lately our shaky economics has left many wondering and it seems the economics of ancient Rome is now the hot new science.
So here's a thread to cover this subject.

[wulfgar610]

We should remember that in the late Empire the payments were mostly in form of food rations (annona), dresses and weapons , being the money very devalued. Two other forms were the old stipendium (3 instalments every 4 months), now, in the IV century, quite low, and the donativum, that slowly replaced the stipendium.

The most interesting source is the 'Beatty Panopolis Papyri' that shows the retributions in the Roman Army at the end of the III century, on the occasion of the birthday of Diocletianus, of the 'dies imperii' of Diocletianus, of the third consulate of Galerius and Constantius and of the first rate of the Stipendium, around the year 300 AD. The papyrus shows the different payment types: Donativum, Stipendium, and Pretium Annonae.

The calculations are very difficult because the written payments are the total sums for the various units and the historians have to extract the real individual amounts of the payments according to the supposed strenght of the units....to make a long story short, the Pretium Annonae, which is given only to the auxiliares seems to be the annual sum of 200 denarii, in three instalments of 66 denarii and 2/3.

If someone is interested I can give the tables of the Beatty Panop. with the units (Alae, Legiones, Vexillationes, Equites Promoti, Lancearii, Cohortes Aux. and Cavalry Alae), the payments and the dates.

That was during the 3rd century inflation and currency destruction. I've seen one quote claiming a soldiers pay was 1800d pa. But that only purchased the amount of wheat 18 x 1st century denarii could buy.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Let's just admit it; until the introduction of new coins like the Solidus the economy was ed up.

Didn't you have some theory about silver mines Wulfgar?

[Diocle]

We Occidentals like to think we're hot stuff and bearers of a greater civilization. We tend to forget the last great Great Western Civilization blew out the candles and disappeared into the darkness for a thousand years.
Lately our shaky economics has left many wondering and it seems the economics of ancient Rome is now the hot new science.
So here's a thread to cover this subject.

I rarely read something more condivisible! Good post and good thread Wulfgar, I'll try to post some suggestions here in the next days, there are many things to discuss on this subject....many things!

Now as I promised, the extract from the Beatty Panop., some words are in Italian but I think it can be understandable (from 'L'Esercito Romano, armamento ed organizzazione', vol. III; by Cascarino and silvestri, ed. Il Cerchio, 2009):




Wulfgar is right, the financial situation that I was describing was that of the Late III century.
The document in the image is a table from the P. Beatty Panop., that is a text in which are transcribed the payrolls of various Roman Unit's Types in form of money.

We can see different kinds of payrolls: Donativum, Stipendium and Pretium Annonae, on the occasion of the birthday of the Emperor Diocletianus (Dec. 22), of the Dies Imperii of the same Emperor (Nov. 20), of the third Consulate of Galerius and Constantius (Jan. 1), and the first installment of the Stipendium ( Jan. 1).

The Papyrus shows also the periodic donation of salt and oil, the salgamum.
The Papyrus gives a sketch of a limited time in the year, certainly the payrolss of Annona and Stipendium were repeated during 12 months.
The main problem for the Historians is to establish, from the totals given in the papyrus, the individual payrolss for the single soldier, this is not an easy task, in short we can say with various authors (Jones, Coello)

- for the Stipendium: three instalments of wages every four months:

200 Denarii for the Legionaries and Alares (600 Denarii for year)

125 Denarii for the Cohortales-auxiliaries (375 Denarii for year).

- The Praepositus of the Legionary Mounted Vexillatio was paid 18.000 Denarii, that is 54.000 Denarii for year.

-The Praetium Annonae was similary paid in three instalments every four months, in these documents was paid only to the auxiliary troops, Jones notes that the unic solution possible from the table is an individual instalments of 66 Denarii and 2/3, so in one year the Pretium Annonae should be 200 Denarii for every single auxiliary of Alae and Cohortes.






....wow! What animated thread!!

[wulfgar610]

Phil Barker gave strengths of the units, his source I don't know.

Ala I Iberorum .................................367

Equites Sagittarii..............................242

Ala II Herculia Dromedariorum ...........211

Cohors XI Charmavorum.....................524

Equites Promoti of Lego II Traiana ......148

Lanciarii of Legio II Traiana................878

Vexillatio of Legio II Traiana............1,109

Vexillatio of Legio III Diocletiana.....1,035

Rump of Legio III Diocletiana...........1,716

Vexillatio of several Legions............1,981

Going by this a legion consisted of the equivalent 8 cohorts of "heavy" troops and 2 cohorts of light.

So a double cohort of lanciarii at 878. giving 439 per cohort.

A double or triple cohort of the best effectives in Vexillatio at 1,000 to 1109. either two cohorts of 550 or 3 cohorts of 370.

A rump of either 5 or 6 cohorts giving a strength of 343 or 286 per cohort.

A rump of either 5 or 6 cohorts of lesser effectives at 1,716.

[Diocle]

Interesting but the historians have to take into account also the amount of 'sesquiplicarii' (soldiers who recived a salary and half the base salary) and 'duplicarii' (duble salary respect the base salary) who were respectively the 1-3% and the 0,5-1% of the total soldiers.

[Constantius]

Interesting but without Barkers source for these figures, difficult to take anything from them

[wulfgar610]

Interesting but without Barkers source for these figures, difficult to take anything from them

By the looks of things he is basing it on the donative been 2500d per man. Four times a year made 10,000d pa.

http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/currency/Diocletian.htm

WAGES. Military archives from Panopolis in Upper Egypt in 299-300 reveal that a legionary received an annual salary of 1,800 d.c. (= 144 nummi), an allotment of 600 d.c. (= 48 nummi) for grain purchases (annona) and 30 modii (62.5% of his annual needs), and four annual donatives of 2,500 d.c. each (= 200 nummi) for a total payment of 12,400 d.c. The money was paid as 992 silver-clad nummi at the exchange rate of 12.5 d.c. per nummus. In 293 base pay of the legionary was probably reckoned at 1 nummus per day for an annual pay of 360 nummi. The price of wheat was perhaps officially 1 nummus per modius castrensis (= 1.5 modius) so that a soldier's annual minimum of 32 modii castrenses cost 32 nummi or 9% of his annual pay of 360 nummi. Wages in the Price Edict suggests that in 293 a laborer received 1 nummus per day whereas skilled craftsmen received daily wages ranging between 3 and 6 nummi.

At the time the standard coin is simply called the nummus, known as "billion metal" it was brass with a 4% silver content and coating. Each worth 25 denarii, these were soon heavily debased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_%28coin%29

The solidus was first introduced by Diocletian around 301 AD, struck at 60 to the Roman pound of pure gold (and thus weighing about 5.5 g each) and with an initial value equal to 1,000 denarii.[1] However, Diocletian's solidus was struck only in small quantities, and thus had only minimal economic effect.
The solidus was reintroduced by Constantine I in 312 AD, permanently replacing the aureus as the gold coin of the Roman Empire. The solidus was struck at a rate of 72 to a Roman pound of pure gold, each coin weighing twenty-four Greco-Roman carats,[2] or about 4.5 grams of gold per coin. By this time, the solidus was worth 275,000 increasingly debased denarii.
The solidus was maintained essentially unaltered in weight and purity until the 10th century, though in the Greek-speaking world during the Roman period and then in the Byzantine economy it was known as the nomisma (plural nomismata).[2] Whenever the coin was taken in by the treasury, it was melted down and reissued. This maintained the evenness of the weight of the circulating solidi, since the coin did not tend to be in circulation long enough to become worn.[2]

[First Citizen Gallienus]

[wulfgar610]

- for the Stipendium: three instalments of wages every four months:

200 Denarii for the Legionaries and Alares (600 Denarii for year)

125 Denarii for the Cohortales-auxiliaries (375 Denarii for year).

These wage levels seem to belong to the period of the Severan Emperors in the early 3rd century. By the 300 AD date of the Beatty Panop, the opinion is the Stipend was 1800 d p.a. in very debased coin.
This would suggest the stipend recorded are monthly rather than 4 monthly.

Interesting but the historians have to take into account also the amount of 'sesquiplicarii' (soldiers who recived a salary and half the base salary) and 'duplicarii' (duble salary respect the base salary) who were respectively the 1-3% and the 0,5-1% of the total soldiers.

I'm well aware of these, but the issue with me is the base rate of the troops. Troops that were senior in rank or long serving could be counted to receive better wages in coin or kind.

If we go by the 1st century example in the Wiki on Auxiliaries.

A basic infantryman at the time of Nero received 188 denarii p.a. each with 3.4 grams of silver.

This equals 640 grams of silver. At the Roman commercial ratio of silver to gold, 14 to 1.

640 grams silver / 14 = 45.7 grams of gold or 10.2 solidi p.a.

Of the 188d, 60 denarii was subtracted for food. At typical provinicial prices this would buy 50 or 60 modius of wheat. Supplying 3000 to 3600 calories per day, which is the basic need for a male athlete.

60 x 3.4 / 14 = 14.6 grams gold or 3.25s p.a.

Another 50 denarii were subtracted for equipment purchase and repayment of the equipment loan. A soldiers basic armor and weapons kit (including maile) would have been at least 24 solidi. He may have fully owned the arms and armor ( and had extra pieces) by the end of service, but Rome had a policy of the arms being sold back to the army for a lucrative payout. (It didn't pay to have fully armed characters wandering around the senatorial provinces)

In the early Imperium one could guess an interest rate of 6% would have applied to the equipment loan. Let's say 30s worth of equipment would have initially attracted interest of 1.8 solidi p.a.

The 50 denarii x3.4 /14 = 12.15 grams of gold or 2.7s.

The 78 denarii cash in hand he received equaled, 78 denaii x3.4 /14 = 19 grams of gold or 4.2s.

Very similar to the 5s p.a. a Byzantine trooper got in the hand.

These was the base cost, but very easily you could multiply this by 1.3 to cover unit costs.

This means a late numeri unit of Cohors style mailed infantry would cost at least 300 (men) x 10.2 x 1.3 = 3,978s p.a.

Not to mention the additional 70 or 80 non-combatants and servants associated with such a unit.

[wulfgar610]

A figure of 800 million sesterce (HS) is given as the annual Imperial revenue in the reign of Augustus. The Augustin denarii was about 3.9 grams and the sesterce was 1/4 of that.

In 23 BC the sesterce went from a 1gram silver coin to a 28 gram brass coin. This was one of the grand steps in the long debasement of Roman currency. 28 grams of brass was in theory equal to a gram of silver but reality doesn't work because the spread is far greater on the base metal.
A late Roman solidi (S) is equal worth to 63 Augustin sesterce.

800 million /63 gives 12,698,413 late solidi as the Augustin revenue.

Using a theoretical troop p.a. cost for the time.

The 125,000 legionaries wages x 15.2s = 1,900,000s

annual donatum to the above 168,750s

100,000 auxiliary infantry x 12.675s = 1,267,500s

25,000 Ala cavalrymen x 17.75s = 443,750s

50,000 horses for the above would cost 500,000s to maintain.

A retirement benefit to those legionaries that made the 25 years. 5,000 x 162s = 810,000s

The Praetorians and Urban cohorts. 500,000s

So far the annual cost is 5,590,000s.

There was the dole = 1,500,000s

Unknowns are the costs of the fleets. Road construction, Forts, Barracks and public buildings.

[Flavius Vegetius Renatus]

Great job on the topic gentlemen! That's y i had been stacking gold and silver coins for years. Mostly 99.9% pure eagles, canadian maple leafs, SA krugerrands and Aussies. Try to debase that u Obama emperor or better yet pay me in beats or blankets.

[wulfgar610]

Great job on the topic gentlemen! That's y i had been stacking gold and silver coins for years. Mostly 99.9% pure eagles, canadian maple leafs, SA krugerrands and Aussies. Try to debase that u Obama emperor or better yet pay me in beats or blankets.

From what I can figure under Basel one, using Milton Friedman economics over the past 20 years. The mainstream floating currencies devalue 5.5% p.a. on average.
Nations like China and India that use 1970's style "beggar they neighbor" Keynesian economics and currency controls, and devalue at 10 to 15% p.a.

The world gold stock has remained at 3/4 ounce per world capita since 1900, so remains an accurate measure.

The late Solidi at around 4.5 grams or 24 carob seeds holds an 700 or 800 year world record of currencies before it was debased out of existence.

[Flavius Vegetius Renatus]

Nations like China and India that use 1970's style "beggar they neighbor" Keynesian economics and currency controls, and devalue at 10 to 15% p.a

Especially China right after Nixon visit in 72' We can't forget what Nixon did and how it relates to gold and silver topic. he basically removed U.S and thus the rest of the world from the gold standard with Bretton woods agreement in 71' and thus put us all on a 'petrodollar' or paper money. Next year he goes to china and gives them paper dollar in exchange for their labor.
To be fair to China at devaluing their own currency, their economy since 72 is directly tied to US dollar via trade. by now they and japan hold about 40% of US debt in form of T-bills so they r forced artificially to lower their own standard to keep up with deflating dollar. On a note Us dollar lost about 98% of its value since the foundation of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1913

The world gold stock has remained at 3/4 ounce per world capita since 1900, so remains an accurate measure.

Yes, since in 1913 FED started printing more paper money than it had gold and silver on reserve but not to the extent we have seen in recent years.

The mainstream floating currencies devalue 5.5% p.a. on average.

Most notably since 70s. Check out the dollar index and other currencies from that year forward, just going straight down the toilet. Everybody had their printing presses and didnt need gold nor silver.

Lately our shaky economics has left many wondering and it seems the economics of ancient Rome is now the hot new science.

And i really don't like what im seeing especially after the riots in greece and now in spain. I feel sorry for the regular people who r getting shafted by this whole system. i know for sure that once its over in Europe the real powder keg is going to blow here in the states.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

I got shafted, alas. The new government cut all the fixed term contracts in the DWP and so I lost my job and now work in Call Centre Hell. I've dropped £4,000 in yearly income and work 9 and 10 hour shifts. My partner hasn't had a pay-rise in 3 years because she works in the Fire Department. In the past, I would simply have migrated and joined a warlord's comitatus!

[Constantius]

...Or declare yourself Augustus

[wulfgar610]

I'm not deadset against paper money, if they limited the printing or devaluation of it to the 1.5% p.a. that is equivalent to the annual expansion of the gold supply. Then I could be satisfied with that.

But there is no reason not to use gold as money. It is a non-necessity luxury good that is highly desired, perfect for use as money.

The argument that there is not enough gold is rubbish, because gold is not a necessity people will part with it for the right price.

The real issue behind all this is the peoples choice whether to lend their money to the banks. The people will do so if the price is right, but the banks want our money for nothing. That's why more often we see compelled savings in the form of compulsory pension funds. The beneficiary are the banks that get cheap money. And already they've been hitting the taxpayer for funding for 2 generations. You pay taxes to supply the banks with cheap money.

The beauty of compulsory savings is you borrow your own money back form the banks and pay them for the privilege.

Right now the US banks borrow your money at 0.10% and lend it back to you at 4% to 6%.

What a joke!

The Romans didn't quite quite have paper money, but they had a good game going. The Imperial government would demand its taxes paid in silver and gold but pay out in low value billion or copper.

[Diocle]

I bought a small pension found at 10.000 € and now after fuor years it is 7.000 €!!!!!! I hate the banks!!! I agree with SBH, I want to follow the Comitatus of some Barbarian warlord, I ask only he let me kill all the bankers we will find along the road, with slow form of death and a lot of blood!!!...If it is possibele I want even the skull of some banker to build a nice cup!!! In five or six years I lost someting like 8.000 € for the very serious work of the bankers, they were unable to see the fall untill exactly the day before!!

In the next days I would try to move forward, analyzing what happened to the Stipendia and Donativa and Annonae between the III and IV century.

[Flavius Vegetius Renatus]

I've dropped £4,000 in yearly income and work 9 and 10 hour shifts. My partner hasn't had a pay-rise in 3 years because she works in the Fire Department.

It seems to be the case on both sides of the Atlantic SBH, people just keeep losing their jobs, retirement savings, salaries getting cut.

In the past, I would simply have migrated and joined a warlord's comitatus!

If this trend continues we might still have the chance to do it but im afraid that in the world of digital money we'll come back empty handed. Although i concur with Diocle on at least being able to crack some bankster skulls.

I'm not deadset against paper money, if they limited the printing or devaluation of it to the 1.5% p.a. that is equivalent to the annual expansion of the gold supply. Then I could be satisfied with that.

Neither am I and im also for having multiple competing currencies with gold, silver being one of them but the problem lies in that our governments r run by psycho and socio paths inclined on destroying the wealth of every citizen to diminish the chance of having some fresh new blood derail the established oligarhy (.1 of 1% population) that pays them.

The argument that there is not enough gold is rubbish, because gold is not a necessity people will part with it for the right price.

Agree completely and we know from history that when in a free market things were running normally people had no need to hoard gold nor silver no matter how much or how little of it was out. Only when governemts started debasements of currencies and emphasizing state run economies did people fled to real assets (gold, silver, land) to protect their wealth from being destroyed.

hat's why more often we see compelled savings in the form of compulsory pension funds.

i have none of those and never will. I only own gold, silver and that will be my retirement and trying to buy some land as soon as i pay off my student loans that i incurred by my own carelessness in 98'. Everything i pay cash and don;t use credit cards. i only keep little i checking account to cover monthly utility expanses. I strongly believe that there is no free meal becasue everything must come from somewhere so if someone is promising me to double my money in a week i run like hell.

Right now the US banks borrow your money at 0.10% and lend it back to you at 4% to 6%.

19.9% if the bank in question has a credit card subdivision. Lovely ain't it. There is a sucker born every minute.

The Romans didn't quite quite have paper money, but they had a good game going. The Imperial government would demand its taxes paid in silver and gold but pay out in low value billion or copper

That's the private sector getting shafted but as you mentioned in earlier post the army itself was getting robbed too. Equipment loans, wheat supply fees, getting paid in worthless money and other government run miracles and the poor fellow had to spent 20-25 years fighting for mere scraps if he survived the ordeal. There was very little incentive for anyone to risk their life only to see most of their pay go back to imperial treasury in form of past loans for privilege of being a soldier

[wulfgar610]

I got shafted, alas. The new government cut all the fixed term contracts in the DWP and so I lost my job and now work in Call Centre Hell. I've dropped £4,000 in yearly income and work 9 and 10 hour shifts. My partner hasn't had a pay-rise in 3 years because she works in the Fire Department. In the past, I would simply have migrated and joined a warlord's comitatus!

Interesting SBH. I read the first couple of pages of your novel, that's quite a competent writing skill you got there. I assume you got tertiary grads that involved a chunk of your life and money. All that to work in a call center?
I remember in a factory job 25 years ago they had 150 blue collar workers and 150 white collars. I wonder how many of those white collar jobs have gone to call centers?