wall climbing siege battle

[AltairBasic]

Is there anyone thinking that all these wall climbing siege battles are kinda weird? I am not very sure if this is historically correct don't they need any kind of siege weapons?

[Raiden]

The idea of a siege in Japan was a bit different than in Europe. They did have siege weapons like catapults and such, but it wasn't usually the goal of the attacker to destroy the walls - at the same time, it was considered cowardly to stay behind your walls and not have a pitched battle outside the castle.
As for the wall-climbing, it could be done since Japanese castles were constructed to withstand earthquakes, so they had slightly slanted walls - whether or not it was feasible as the only method of assaulting a castle, I'm not sure.

[AltairBasic]

hmm... thanks!

[Hikaru Genji]

There was actually a thread on this very same question a while back...here it is:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=416760

You might find some of the information quite interesting.

[Intranetusa]

Just like in RTW, STW is 30% truth, 70% fiction. The way they portrayed it ingame is absolutely silly.

[Humble Warrior]

Just as we know things fall without actually needing to know about a phenomenon called gravity, so too can the ordinary person see that something isn`t right about STW2 sieges. It`s just common sense, we can see that it just didn`t happen like this every time because Humans couldn`t do this all the time. It`s all an incredibly inefficient way to try and take a Fort manned by determined soldiers.

It may be that once or twice they tried climbing the slanted walls (although some are pretty high and near vertical), but pure logical common sense reveals that it was never done to this scale. Other means should have been portrayed and if none then just siege them out. Boring? maybe, but a heluva lot more believable than men physically climbing walls in their thousands. I still think the truth lies behind the mechanics of the warscape TW engine which was unable to make troops siege Forts properly in Empire which is even more dire - And no one can say that Line infantry in Europe grappled up walls in their thousands. We know they didn`t, but CA never fixed it.

The only reason CA gets away with it here is due to our lack of familiarity of sieges in medieval Japan so people come out with hopeful `it could have` disregarding the human feasibility of it.

[Erwin Rommel]

Sigh.

(although some are pretty high and near vertical), but pure logical common sense reveals that it was never done to this scale.

You guys really need to look at the difference. If you look at those imposing Japanese walls, chances are those are post-Sekigahara or 1600s and after. Yes you might get the conclusion that the walls of Kumamoto especially at the tenshu is impossible to climb.

BUT. This game is about the Sengoku Jidai.

Anything before that is 1600s and 1500s, that is Sengoku Jidai.

Its like your arguing that medieval siege techniques would not work at castles, then proceed to point out the Vauban star fort, incorrectly assuming that this what a medieval castle looks like.

NOW. Sengoku Jidai castles and Sengoku Yamashiro, things here are different with unplastered stone just cobled together to clad the base of the Kuruwa, with known castle masons who prefer 45 degrees of sloping

The Anō family from Ōmi Province were the foremost castle architects in the late 16th century, and were renowned for building the 45-degree stone bases, which began to be used for keeps, gatehouses, and corner towers, not just for the castle mound as a whole.

and the TYPE OF WALLS USED.

Nozurazumi (野面積)

These walls use unshaped stones. They are either stones that were used in their natural shape or were split without any further shaping. This type of wall is comparatively weak and high walls cannot be built. It also provides many footholds and handholds making it relatively easy for attackers to climb.

It may be that once or twice they tried climbing the slanted walls

THEN WHY oh WHY is it portrayed in Jidaigeki? Why did an Akira Kurosawa movie showed it, why do Ukiyo-e prints SHOW IT? AND EVEN WHY does OSPREY have an illustration of it?

[rasassfrass]

Erwin has a point humble... Besides if sengoku era samurai where ridiculous enough to whare pink horos into battle(or just wharing one in that case) then I think its logical to assume they were also ridiculous enough to build walls slanted enough to climb over and if thats the case then clearly the madmen of sengoku japan had no calms about attacking a castle in such a rediculos fasion again horos need I say anything more on how clearly crazy these people.where sorry for spelling doin it on a phone

[Intranetusa]

The point is even if it was commonly done historically, the game still gets it wrong.

[Hikaru Genji]

The point is even if it was commonly done historically, the game still gets it wrong.

Mainly because "Citadel" level castles become fairly common...in reality most would have been "forts" or around that level. Historically there were very few siege battles involving said "Citadels" and as Erwin Rommel had said most were built in the Edo period.

[rasassfrass]

Plus when have seiges ever been corect in these games i dont think the wall climbing is a huge deal... yes in some seiges in sengoku japan they climbed the walls like the game shows but as others have said it wasnt that comon. Now many people want things like ladders and rams for seiges in S2 like rome tw but even thou there are seiges from late antiquity using seige machines (towers in one case if you look up the last battle of the jewish revolts) but like S2 these type of seiges didnt happen often like sengoku japan or medival europe or actient times most seiges where just cutting of supplies to the target(a city or fortress or whatever) and starve them out till the defenders either sally to break the siege or surrender. So in this regard sieges nevr have been accurate....but thats the thing abut total war its not a history sim they never claimed it to be 100% historicly accurate and they dont try its not that kind of game and if it was i wouldnt have been a fan since rome......and if sources from the time of S2 show or talk about the troops just strait-up climbing up the walls like the game....plus has any one really looked at the ramps that lead up to the gate? Those things look to small to hold a battering ram i dont know how accuarte the design of the castels are in S2 but the overall design of them seems to indicate that the attacker is intended to take the first level. So that way the defenders can trap the attackers in a killzone but i dont know much on the history of japan.

[Intranetusa]

I'm so disappointed in the siege battles. When I first started fighting one, I was like "sweet, the enemy has to break down my gates" and gathered my troops at the multiple gates. Then I saw the enemy climbing up the walls in random spots and I was like O_o...

[Intranetusa]

...

The problem is it screws up the siege element of a fort/castle battle. In all the previous games with sieges, you can have a smaller defending army hold off a much larger attacking army because you can fight them at choke points (the gate). I loved holding off huge armies with pikemen or hoplites at the gatehouse in RTW: Europa Barbarorum (or RTRealism) and MTW2.

In STW, there are basically no more choke points and essentially no more fort/castle advantages for defenders since the enemy can just climb up walls without siege equipment and attack you from anywhere. That makes it much more boring and lame...

[Erwin Rommel]

That is why there are secondary or higher tiers of kuruwa, you tie them with troops in the initial kuruwa and use the other HIGHER kuruwa as a base of fire where archers can still operate with impunity. Sigh.

[O'Hea]

Historical concerns aside, I think the climbable walls are good for gameplay and battle strategy. If we were going solely by history, then assaults would be very rare and almost impossible, and taking cities would involve a long siege interrupted by several sorties and attempts at relief. The end result would be a much more slow-paced game.

[Erwin Rommel]

I question this notion of assaults very rare coz I swear I read this thing about the father of Shingen subduing dozens of sengoku yamashiro in Shinano alone.

Better find that particular text.

[O'Hea]

I question this notion of assaults very rare coz I swear I read this thing about the father of Shingen subduing dozens of sengoku yamashiro in Shinano alone.

Better find that particular text.

Minor, local fortifications like that probably were fairly easy to assault (as they are in-game) but you probably wouldn't want to make a direct assault against, say, Osaka. Maybe I'm just mistaken in thinking Sengoku Japan was pretty well-fortified (since it's been pointed out in this thread that a lot of notable Japanese fortresses are actually from the Edo period). You definitely wouldn't want to make a direct assault on contemporary fortifications in other parts of the world unless the situation was very pressing.

[Erwin Rommel]

The situation is always pressing actually. I made this gigantic list of Sengoku Jidai sieges, cant find the post, occuring ever mentioned in the teh internetz and books, from obscures ones that range from defenders using traction catapult to scatter attackers instead of the other way around down to important battles which always have a prologue of a siege, just to illustrate that sieges abound in Japan, the only thing is, you are far more likely to encounter an interception from another army seeking to relieve that castle, its like the situation of Nagashino castle, besieged by the Takeda then the Oda and the Tokugawa relieved it in the "Battle of Nagashino". So yes taisho are compelled to take castles quickly, Taketenjin is example of this.

(Intriguingly, the media depiction of Taketenjin shows Takeda troops under Katsuyori scaling walls via hand. This is a movie by Kurusawa btw, Kagemusha. The only error is that they are using the high walls of Himeji I think as a setup to that castle lol.)

but you probably wouldn't want to make a direct assault against, say, Osaka

THEN there is another scenario, this I think is similar to the Siege Odani Castle, where its basically settled by a battle outside, like the Battle of Anegawa.

Glad you mentioned Siege of Osaka, coz ....................tada....



Its the Battle of Tennoji.

[RollingWave]

It's not that inaccurate, most Japanese Fort walls were fairly short, the concept of castle is not quite the same as it was in the West, for one thing, there were very few walled cities, most castles were built on hills or even mountains often away from the main population, which was the primary reason why they didn't go for tall walls.

For castles build on flat ground and /or closer to urban centers, the general prefernce was to utilize a series of short walls to create a maze effect instead of one tall one.

Also, another major factor is earthquake, Japan being in an extremely earthquake prone zone made it difficult to errect tall standing walls. most of the stone used in castle making was spent on making a very firm stone base.