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Thread: Abstaining in votes

  1. #1
    Sinuhet's Avatar Preparing for death
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    Default Abstaining in votes

    I have a question. Woludnt be helpful to assign some importance to the proportion of declared abstained voters?
    What I mean: I feel some difference between: 30 pros/10cons/10abstained versus 15pros/5cons/30abstained. The proportion pros versus cons is the same, so it is the same from the sight of the Syntagma, however I feel some difference in it anyway.....

    Also, with this is partially related the "minimal number of voters condition", which should be implemented, in my opinion, at least for the "more" important votes, which change a legislation (bills and amedments).
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    King Henry V's Avatar Behold your King
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Abstaining means that you don't care what the result is, therefore you accept the outcome, whatever it may be. If there a large number of abstentions, it just means many don't care.
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    Sinuhet's Avatar Preparing for death
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    hmm, in democracy....
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinuhet
    hmm, in democracy....
    Exactly. We can't force people to have an opinion. At least by abstaining they show they are active.

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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    But abstaining doesnt always mean one doesnt care what the outcome is, they could also be split 50-50 for the vote, and so they just dont vote for either and maybe make their point on why they abstained. At least, that is what I do sometimes.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinuhet
    I have a question. Woludnt be helpful to assign some importance to the proportion of declared abstained voters?
    What I mean: I feel some difference between: 30 pros/10cons/10abstained versus 15pros/5cons/30abstained. The proportion pros versus cons is the same, so it is the same from the sight of the Syntagma, however I feel some difference in it anyway.....
    How would you go about assigning "importance" to these votes? Seems to me like you cant really, because in abstaining they are declaring that they dont take either side in the matter. By giving weight to these votes, it seems like you would have to pander to one of the sides (in favor or disagreeing) to some extent. Perhaps I misinterpret.



  7. #7

    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    I rarely give much respect to people who abstain, simply because they can't make up their mind. But I do understand that either they don't care, which is possible in some issues, and that they don't understand the bill (in that case it is good that they don't vote). Sometimes it is a quite clear yes and voting abstaining is pointless. But it is their right to abstain and if it makes me mad, so what. This is a democracy.
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    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    In a democracy, an abstention is a perfectly valid option.

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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    The only option is to further encourage people to read the Prothalamos discussions, contribute, and have an opinion.
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    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinuhet
    I have a question. Woludnt be helpful to assign some importance to the proportion of declared abstained voters?
    What I mean: I feel some difference between: 30 pros/10cons/10abstained versus 15pros/5cons/30abstained. The proportion pros versus cons is the same, so it is the same from the sight of the Syntagma, however I feel some difference in it anyway.....

    Also, with this is partially related the "minimal number of voters condition", which should be implemented, in my opinion, at least for the "more" important votes, which change a legislation (bills and amedments).
    Ah yes, the beauty of democracy. If there are 51 voters and one votes for, none against, and 50 abstain, it passes with flying colors. And you know what, I like it like that...
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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Abstaining favours the proposed legislation, since it is not required to reach a 50% + 1 vote of the total but only a plurality of the non abstaining voters.

    As long as the abstaining voters realise this, there is no need for legislation...

  12. #12
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Personally I abstain in cases where I am indifferent to the issue but also when the proposed legislation solves some issues but creates new ones. In that sense the abstain option has a function as it is. If a bill passes with many abstaining it may be open to revision, whereas a bill that receives unanimous support isn't.
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by King Henry V
    Abstaining means that you don't care what the result is, therefore you accept the outcome, whatever it may be. If there a large number of abstentions, it just means many don't care.
    I have abstained from several votes in the past week. Why? Because I have had limited access to the internet and have thus has limited access to reading through the Proth's lengthy debates on issues. I may care what the outcomes are, but I feel that I do not have the capacity to vote fairly on the issue and influence the outcome, thus I abstain.
    Abstention should not be for people who do not care; those who do not shouldn't be civitates anyways.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by gigagaia
    I have abstained from several votes in the past week. Why? Because I have had limited access to the internet and have thus has limited access to reading through the Proth's lengthy debates on issues. I may care what the outcomes are, but I feel that I do not have the capacity to vote fairly on the issue and influence the outcome, thus I abstain.
    Abstention should not be for people who do not care; those who do not shouldn't be civitates anyways.
    I disagree there are certain issues in the curia which I simply do not care about and others I feel very important.

    A new flashy badge for certain members is an issue I am distinctly apathetic towards but I do take interest in many other matters, obviously as a member of the CdC.

    So because there are certain activities I feel a waste of time, but do not object to others feeling them neccessary should I lose the civitate badge?

    I do agree with abstaining on issues you do not have knowledge on as well mind.

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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    Abstaining favours the proposed legislation, since it is not required to reach a 50% + 1 vote of the total but only a plurality of the non abstaining voters.

    As long as the abstaining voters realise this, there is no need for legislation...
    If a majority was require; abstaining would mean the same as a no vote, so they should realise that.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by King Henry V
    Abstaining means that you don't care what the result is, therefore you accept the outcome, whatever it may be. If there a large number of abstentions, it just means many don't care.
    Not necessairly. I sometimes Abstain not because I don't care what will happen but because what I want to happen is not an option to vote for.

    I also abstain, like others, when we agree with the idea of a bill in principle, but have some qualms or problems with it that need to be fixed.

    Abstaining is where you care about the bill but our undecided on it. In that regard, instead of failing a bill (And thus stopping any more votes on amended bills for a month), perhaps it should be the case that the bill goes back to the Prothalamos for further discussion and to get full Curia support.

    A large number of abstain votes does indicate a problem with the legislation being put forward, even if it's not completely and out rightly opposed in its principles.

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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    To tell the truth, if I neither agreed or disagreed with a proposed Bill or election, I did nothing. Abstaining was irrelevant to me before I knew it could be important.

    This needs to be more widely explained...

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    Sinuhet's Avatar Preparing for death
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q
    Not necessairly. I sometimes Abstain not because I don't care what will happen but because what I want to happen is not an option to vote for.

    I also abstain, like others, when we agree with the idea of a bill in principle, but have some qualms or problems with it that need to be fixed.

    Abstaining is where you care about the bill but our undecided on it. In that regard, instead of failing a bill (And thus stopping any more votes on amended bills for a month), perhaps it should be the case that the bill goes back to the Prothalamos for further discussion and to get full Curia support.

    A large number of abstain votes does indicate a problem with the legislation being put forward, even if it's not completely and out rightly opposed in its principles.
    This answer explain nicely my original ideas about these matters. Thanks for the explicit formulation, Q .
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    If a majority was require; abstaining would mean the same as a no vote, so they should realise that.
    abstaining does not mean that at all...
    abstaining means the vote is not counted, it counts neither as a yes, or a no...
    in any particular vote, an act can pass with 20 in favour, 10 against, 30 abstaining, it has simple majority in favour... and amendment, or deification vote passes on the basis of a 2/3rds majority... i.e. 2/3rds of all those who voted - again, abstentions don't count in this. 2/3rds majority is worked out by taking the abstentions away from total votes (call it N), then working out the % of yes votes from N... if that %age is 66% or higher, bill/vote passes

    if you look back through the votes, you'll see several votes have passed where they only achieved 2/3rds in favour by discounting abstentions.
    this is generally true anywhere...
    abstaining is delcaring you are a voting member, but do not wish your vote to be counted on this issue.
    its used for calculating quoracy in most bodies that include an abstention vote, a situation that is currently irrelevant here

    i believe this matter was also the subject of a piece of legislation somewhere along the lines, that actually did define this...

    EDIT yes the Curia Votes Act says
    Abstentions are not considered when determining whether a Bill has achieved the required proportion of voters.
    a simple majority is still a required proportion - the proportion being 50%+1

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Abstaining in votes

    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince
    abstaining does not mean that at all...
    abstaining means the vote is not counted, it counts neither as a yes, or a no...
    in any particular vote, an act can pass with 20 in favour, 10 against, 30 abstaining, it has simple majority in favour... and amendment, or deification vote passes on the basis of a 2/3rds majority... i.e. 2/3rds of all those who voted - again, abstentions don't count in this. 2/3rds majority is worked out by taking the abstentions away from total votes (call it N), then working out the % of yes votes from N... if that %age is 66% or higher, bill/vote passes

    if you look back through the votes, you'll see several votes have passed where they only achieved 2/3rds in favour by discounting abstentions.
    this is generally true anywhere...
    abstaining is delcaring you are a voting member, but do not wish your vote to be counted on this issue.
    its used for calculating quoracy in most bodies that include an abstention vote, a situation that is currently irrelevant here

    i believe this matter was also the subject of a piece of legislation somewhere along the lines, that actually did define this...
    Quote Originally Posted by TBN
    If a majority was require
    Currently only a plurality is required. I was replying (agreeing with you, really) and saying why a majority, including abstentions, should not be needed. :wink:

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