History question/doubt.

**Lord Morboth** · March 22, 2012, 03:37 PM

So, AFAIK it was during the Meiji period that Japan underwent its industrialization and westernization process... how come the supporters of the Emperor sided with him to avoid westernization but in fact helped paved the way for it?

Also, I thought the Shogunate had at first rejected trade with the western powers, but in FotS they are depicted as having welcomed it...

Could someone shed some light into this?

**Ishan** · March 22, 2012, 05:09 PM

Please don't clutter the GD forum with such questions. Thread moved to TWS2 Historical Research Center section.

**Lord Morboth** · March 22, 2012, 07:38 PM

Sorry, didn't see it before.

So... as asked... ideas?

**Jihada** · March 22, 2012, 08:27 PM

If you google the Bakumatsu period (later Tokugawa Shogunate) there are explanations of the confusion at the time between the need to modernise and the resentment against foreigners and loss of traditional ways. The supposed distinction between traditional Shogunate and Imperial modernisers is a rather simplified view of an obviously confusing period.

**Lord Morboth** · March 22, 2012, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jihada

If you google the Bakumatsu period (later Tokugawa Shogunate) there are explanations of the confusion at the time between the need to modernise and the resentment against foreigners and loss of traditional ways. The supposed distinction between traditional Shogunate and Imperial modernisers is a rather simplified view of an obviously confusing period.

Still, in the game they are portrayed the other way around: the Shogunate as reforming and the Empire as traditional... I haven't quite grasped the dimension of this all...

**Gauloisier de la Gauloiserie** · March 22, 2012, 11:53 PM

Just as Lord Morboth I fount there a contradiction.

At first the "imperial supporter" clans allied together around the emperor because the Shogunate was fraternizing too much with the US,brits and french... and in the second phase, *they* were the one who brought heavy "westernization" to Japan with the help of the US, brits and french.

I read something yesterday about the last battle of the Republic of Ezo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ezo )
Later on, even in Japan, the defenders of the republic (pro-Shogun, pro-bakufu) were depicted as "traditionnal", with bows and katanas...
while in fact, they had a modern army à la francaise (see the adventures of Captain Jules Brunet)

**Erwin Rommel** · March 23, 2012, 07:04 AM

It gets more weirder.....the Shogun himself is a big Imperialist, well at least in regards of not blaming this whole thing on the Emperor since he is beyond blame, being tenno heika and all, even the guys at the Ezo Republic still view that they are not rebelling against the Emperor and even wrote that they be allowed to be like this with the Emperor's blessing, to continue their ways and let the Tokugawa family move in, in Ezo.

While later history texts were to refer to May 1869 as being when Enomoto accepted the Meiji Emperor's rule, the Imperial rule was never in question for the Ezo Republic, as made evident by part of Enomoto's message to the Dajōkan (太政官 Dajōkan?) (the Imperial governing council) at the time of his arrival in Hakodate:“ The farmers and merchants are unmolested, and live without fear, going their own way, and sympathising with us; so that already we have been able to bring some land into cultivation. We pray that this portion of the Empire may be conferred upon our late lord, Tokugawa Kamenosuke; and in that case, we shall repay your beneficence by our faithful guardianship of the northern gate.[7] ”

Thus from Enomoto's perspective, the efforts to establish a government in Hokkaidō were not only for the sake of providing for the Tokugawa house on the one hand (burdened as it was with an enormous amount of redundant retainers and employees), but also as developing Ezo for the sake of defense for the rest of the country, something which had been a topic of concern for some time. Recent scholarship has noted that for centuries, Ezo was not considered a part of Japan the same way that the other "main" islands of modern Japan were, so the creation of the Ezo Republic, in a contemporary mindset, was not an act of secession, but rather of "bringing" the politico-social entity of "Japan" formally to Ezo.[8]

**Chevalier IX** · March 23, 2012, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Δράκων

Just as Lord Morboth I fount there a contradiction.

At first the "imperial supporter" clans allied together around the emperor because the Shogunate was fraternizing too much with the US,brits and french... and in the second phase, *they* were the one who brought heavy "westernization" to Japan with the help of the US, brits and french.

I read something yesterday about the last battle of the Republic of Ezo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ezo )
Later on, even in Japan, the defenders of the republic (pro-Shogun, pro-bakufu) were depicted as "traditionnal", with bows and katanas...
while in fact, they had a modern army à la francaise (see the adventures of Captain Jules Brunet)

They were portrayed as traditional in the end,such as saigos forces in the seinan war some 10 years later,because they eventually ran out of the means to resupply their rapidly depleting forces,and,refusing to surrender they opted to use the weapons on hand. Also it helped to captured the romantic spirit that was at the core of the thing at hand

**Lord Morboth** · March 26, 2012, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Chevalier IX

They were portrayed as traditional in the end,such as saigos forces in the seinan war some 10 years later,because they eventually ran out of the means to resupply their rapidly depleting forces,and,refusing to surrender they opted to use the weapons on hand. Also it helped to captured the romantic spirit that was at the core of the thing at hand

Still, this doesn't quite make it... the Emperor is apparently the upholder of the traditional values in Shogun 2, whereas the Shogun is the vile westernizer... The Emperor even expelled the westerners!

However, we all know that the Meiji Restoration is the period which sees Japan become a secondary/major power in the world's politics. How come?

**Gauloisier de la Gauloiserie** · March 26, 2012, 03:43 PM

The rebellion against the Shogun started officially because the Shogun started trading with the West. These pro-emperor clans presented themselves as "conservators", "traditionalists".
Less than 10 years later, all these "no trade with barbarians" were the one using the most western weapons, while the pro-shogun were "late" on that matter...
My humble opinion: pro-imperial clans are the master of hypocrisy. They juts wanted the Shogun out.

**Hikaru Genji** · March 28, 2012, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Δράκων

The rebellion against the Shogun started officially because the Shogun started trading with the West. These pro-emperor clans presented themselves as "conservators", "traditionalists".
Less than 10 years later, all these "no trade with barbarians" were the one using the most western weapons, while the pro-shogun were "late" on that matter...
My humble opinion: pro-imperial clans are the master of hypocrisy. They juts wanted the Shogun out.

Adding to this, the Kyushu daimyo had always had a less than ideal relationship with the Shogunate, and so this period proved the perfect opportunity to rise against it. As I understand it what we see and hear in Shogun II is largely the rhetoric and propaganda that would have been put out during the period, not necessarily the way people really thought. Finally, it was generally viewed by the Meiji government that the only way to escape a similar fate to China was to industrialize and adopt some western ways. So pragmatism largely won out in the end.