The Xiongnu Origins

[Admiral Piett]

I read an article from a recent study of remains that were discovered to be most certainly Xiongnu.

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...jhg20108a.html

The DNA testing of these remains has identified them to be strongly tied to modern northern Asians, indicating a Siberian lineage. Other reading on the subject has had one scholar actually suggest that the Xiongnu language may be related to Yenesian - a Uralic Siberian language. Also, an article here has identified a male in a Xiongnu grave site to be Indo-European, specifically Saka-Scythian. There are indeed evidence that a Saka horse-archer culture invaded the Ordos culture.

This is leading me to lean in favor of the theory that the Xiongnu were multi-ethnic and that a large amount of the remains tested seems to suggest Siberian origin. Others among the Xiongnu we now know were Iranic Scythian, and the Turks who first appeared from the Altay Mountains on the Western extremity of the Xiongnu realm. That these nomadic peoples migrated southwards and went so far as to be part of the same peoples who plagued the Han Chinese with raids for centuries.

On the other hand, modern Mongolians seem more or less tied to the Donghu, who were tied to the region of Manchuria and were later themselves destroyed the Xiongnu. (Even the title 'Khan' originates from the Donghu of Manchuria) It gives me doubt that the original Xiongnu were Mongolian in the sense that we think of it today. Of course, I am an amateur on this subject and I may be entirely wrong. It is likely also that this so-called Ordos culture merely mixed with Xiongnu people and eventually became the dominate people who are the Mongolians today.

It seems, to me anyway, that the Xiongnu are most especially a mix of Siberian, Turkic, and Saka.

The history surrounding the Xiongnu (and by extension, the highly disputed pre-history of Huns) seems a lot more complex than originally thought. I have doubt that the Xiongnu really were tied to the early history of the Huns, but rather that in actuality many groups who were subjugated by the Xiongnu later became the Huns.

[Kitsunegari]

Yes i think they were probably Proto-Turks with some Iranians still mixed in.

[Carpathian Wolf]

I think people underestimate just how far the Indo-Europeans reached eastward.

[Kagemusha]

All steppe cultures were heterogenetic. People who drifted on the steppe kept drifting while there and formed different steppe confederations as time passed along. As human populations in steppes were not static, noe were their ethnicity.

[Kitsunegari]

"Xiongnu" was kind of a catch-all for nomads used by Chinese historians for centuries, like "Scythian" was used by Greco-Roman historians to describe many groups that may have had nothing to do with the Scythians.

[Admiral Piett]

"Xiongnu" was kind of a catch-all for nomads used by Chinese historians for centuries, like "Scythian" was used by Greco-Roman historians to describe many groups that may have had nothing to do with the Scythians.

That's why I used the term Saka, which distinguishes that from the western branch.

[white-wolf]

Saka is another term for Scythians.

I agree that all steppe cultures were heterogeneous.That said, I believe Xiongnu is a mix of people from Altay mountain regions including proto-Turkics from south Siberia. I think Mongolians who are late comers to that region has no relationship with Xiongnu.

[Admiral Piett]

Saka is another term for Scythians.

I agree that all steppe cultures were heterogeneous.That said, I believe Xiongnu is a mix of people from Altay mountain regions including proto-Turkics from south Siberia. I think Mongolians who are late comers to that region has no relationship with Xiongnu.

Yeah, most of what I've read on it suggests strongly that the Mongolians that we are familiar with are actually the Donghu, aka the Ordos culture, of Manchuria. The Xiongnu are a Siberian branch (probably related to the people who still inhabit the north central Siberia), along with the proto-Turkic peoples, as well as Saka.

[Kitsunegari]

I wonder what the relationship between seemingly totally isolated peoples like the Koreans and the Japanese was to the Mongols or Turks, maybe at one time they branched off from the proto-Mongols.

[PikeStance]

I wonder what the relationship between seemingly totally isolated peoples like the Koreans and the Japanese was to the Mongols or Turks, maybe at one time they branched off from the proto-Mongols.

Xiongnu is an interesting tidbit in history. Their empire stretched across Central Asia. They were a powerful force in Asia, forcing the "Chinese" to pay a tribute.

I do not recall reading the Korean was an language isolate. I was under the impression is was part of the Altaic language family. Japanese is either considered an isolate or also part of the Altaic language. Interesting note, the Chinese teach in their schools that Mongolian, Korean, and Japanese are all Chinese. I had a rather interesting conversation with my Chinese students. LOL

Anyway,...

It is my understanding the Xiongnu was somewhat homogenous until they were defeated by the Chinese, specifically Han Wudi. Over time, they would gradually integrate with other nomadic peoples in Central Asia. Some scholars (historians) theorized that Xiongnu form part of the group of nomads that established the Kushan Empire based in Bactria.

I would be surprise if the Xiongnu language is Uralix or Indo- European. Indo- Europeans did spread more than any other linguistic group, but I doubt that the Xiongnu are one of them. Probably the only other group that has spread as much are the Bantu people of Africa. I guess you can also include the Altaic group if you include Native American languages in that family.

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[Kitsunegari]

I had an old military history book that postulated that the Xiongnu defeat by the Han led to their westward migration, eventually appearing as the "Huns" in European history.

[hellheaven1987]

I had an old military history book that postulated that the Xiongnu defeat by the Han led to their westward migration, eventually appearing as the "Huns" in European history.

The fact was that Western Han only pushed Xiongnu tribes in today's Inner Mongolia to Outer Mongolia (or today's Mongolia). The Xiongnu tribes in Outer Mongolia continued fighting Eastern Han dynasty and eventually overran northern China during Jin Dynasty in Wu Hu uprising (Five Barbarian Tribes Invasion, first the Xiongnu chief Liu Yuan overran the northern China and set up his own Chinese dynasty, before his dynasty got overran by other barbarians).

[Admiral Piett]

So far though, most testing of Xiongnu remains yields different origins. Some Siberian, some Turkic, some Saka.

[PikeStance]

So far though, most testing of Xiongnu remains yields different origins. Some Siberian, some Turkic, some Saka.

I guess this would be entirely possible.
I believe Siberian and Turkic are both in the same linguistic family; Altaic. Saka were in central Asia and Indo- European. I believe the Xiongnu Empire would had included the Scythian area of Central Asia. The area had been so politically volatile, I would not be surprise if the DNA evidence will show a a mixture of people, like a Gumbo.