What faction do you most want added in the 1220 late era campaign?

[Ichon]

In the late era Hohenstaufens ruled Sicily while also being Emperors of the HRE. After the end of that line around 1260 Sicily is ruled variously until split between France and Aragon.

[Maroslav]

i am for add some faction which make AI wars more balanced and more reliable. so maybe some faction which will fight with byzantines or with khwarezmians. or add Ireland kingdom it will be better than ireland stay whole game rebelic when player dont capture it.

[bradavies]

Ireland always gets conquered relatively quickly on my campaigns, there are plenty of factions that deserve a place over them.

[Maroslav]

lol? your AI capture ireland? O.o never saw that. ofc everybody will have another opinion about best faction which deserve to add. how i told for me best faction will be this which finally help to seljuks play little longer.

[bradavies]

Ok, its mainly England cause there already on Ireland. But I have on occassions seen Scotland and France try to take it of the English, though this is like once a campaign.

[Gnostiko]

I'd have voted for the second Bulgarian Empire, but then I remembered the dream of getting Georgia into the game!

[RollingWave]

compare to the current faction slots in SS, we could add at least 3-5 factions in 1220. since there is 2 free slot and u could still remove the timurids, and in 1220 the Kingdom of Sicily had essentially merged into the HRE. also one could argue that at this point the Khwarezmids was already toast.

So based on that, I'd think the most logical add would be (in terms of game relevance)

Bulgaria (peak of their power, a must)
Serbia
Georgia
Armenia
Abbasids(at their las peak also)

Burgundy (this is tough, since in this frame you can't remove the TO, I suppose you COULD remove Crusader States since they were effectively toast as a relavent military power at this point.. and simply use really strong rebel stacks for Antioch / Acer and stuff)

Other changes

Sweden Replaces Norway (more relavant at this point)
Suzdal replaces Kiev
Almohads replace Almoravids
Ayyubids replace Fatimids
Rum replace Seljuqs

[Bob Doad]

compare to the current faction slots in SS, we could add at least 3-5 factions in 1220. since there is 2 free slot and u could still remove the timurids, and in 1220 the Kingdom of Sicily had essentially merged into the HRE. also one could argue that at this point the Khwarezmids was already toast.

So based on that, I'd think the most logical add would be (in terms of game relevance)

Bulgaria (peak of their power, a must)
Serbia
Georgia
Armenia
Abbasids(at their las peak also)

Burgundy (this is tough, since in this frame you can't remove the TO, I suppose you COULD remove Crusader States since they were effectively toast as a relavent military power at this point.. and simply use really strong rebel stacks for Antioch / Acer and stuff)

Other changes

Sweden Replaces Norway (more relavant at this point)
Suzdal replaces Kiev
Almohads replace Almoravids
Ayyubids replace Fatimids
Rum replace Seljuqs

I like this +rep well thought out the crusader states!

[Lord Oakenthrone]

I voted Georgia, but I'm having second thoughts now and wished I had voted for Abbasids as the Muslim type factions need some buffing in terms of variety esp in the heavy infantry department.

[Stath's]

Bulgarians deserve a place in the game. It has to be very difficult to survive, but when you manage that, you could take Costantinople. I think it is very interesting to be able to manage things like that, which were the dreams of the kings of that age.

[betto]

Just reposting a idea ... make the "extra" be used for factions that will impact for the player . if player take france ,burgundy and france barons factions if play as venice then pisa and milan ... etc one more indian faction will not do much direference if you play with portugal.
if someone says too much work... ok ,but still is a good idea i think.

[XxXxMarioxXxX]

Bulgaria was quite strong in 1220 so my vote goes to them.

[Paragon]

compare to the current faction slots in SS, we could add at least 3-5 factions in 1220. since there is 2 free slot and u could still remove the timurids, and in 1220 the Kingdom of Sicily had essentially merged into the HRE. also one could argue that at this point the Khwarezmids was already toast.

The problem being that you would want them to have special units, and the units slots are full. Sicily being was the HRE only on regards that his king also ruled their lands, Leon and Castille should also teorically not be the same faction until 1230, when Alfonso IX died and Fernando III inherited both kingdoms, but that would making the already faction dense Iberia more of a mess (also I don't know what kind of special units would they get)

The same goes for Sicily. It deserves to be its own faction, giving all that to the HRE would be not balanced, it would be a mess for factions who have a campaign target destroying HRE or Sicily, and among all it would be the HRE unbalanced. Maybe, MAYBE, they should start as HRE's vassals, but that's it.

Alsothe Khwazermids weren't toast in 1220, it was in 1221 (it didn't take him longer) when Genghis Khan really stormed their capital, exterminated not only the population but up to the freaking dogs and cats, and made the now faction leader-less Persia "a vassal" that is what the IA should do, not have the mongols exterminating the faction until 1235 or later, and then go full wrath of khan until pretty much Kiev. IIRC they died as a "faction" here.

Also I always found late era Persia to be a pretty challeging campaign.

So you have two factions slots, three if you remove the timurids, and not unit slot. What units you should remove for the new faction to get their own special ones should be the question here. I recommend lame mercenaries so nobody gets specially offended about their faction losing a crucial unit.

The other alternative is making late era to start a bit after 1220 (a mess iirc, it would mean giving French lands to the British among others) or make an even later era campaign like the 6.2 mod had. That would allow you, for one, to remove the Khwarezmids, maybe the mongols (though not the Timurids) probably Kiev, maybe the crusader states, and maybe if you make it really late it would put the Kingdom of Leon and Castille and the Crown of Aragon together, and remove Sicily and the Byzantines.

Then again your first questio shouldn't be what factions to devour in order to put new ones, but what units to devour in order to put that factions.

[Irishpsycho]

Paragon, I'm sorry but late era Sicily really has to go, and IMO the HRE is actually underpowered now, since it never retains any Italian territories, and almost always gets munched by France, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Genoa, Venice, and Hungary, with other europeans sometimes taking bites throughg crusades once the inevitable excommunications come.

For the Kwarezmians, one more year of existance is no excuse for their continued in game playability. The Latin Empire is entirely ruled out as a faction choice despite existing until 1261, because it didn't do anything but exist.
The Kwarezmians didn't even really do that, so they are out IMO, and should be replaced with another middle eastern faction that actually survived and expanded during or after the Mongol invasion.

Also, removing the Kwarezmians, Sicilians, and Timurids gives us at least a dozen units. Also, I believe that Mailed Knights, both mounted and dismounted, are still included in the late campaign, despite being untrainable, since I've seen them in rebel stacks and gotten them when buying a settlement as part of the garrison. They should be removed, Pilgrims crusader unit should be replaced with a larger recruitment pool for religious fanatics (still garbage troops, but with a shock value and some historical precedent for being a unit, unlike pilgrims who were entirely civillian unless they were religious fanatics), early era mercenaries should be replaced with high era ones from the start and removed, and I think that we can replace one of the brittish Isles longbow units (either welsh longbows or the basic longbowmen should be removed in favor of the other).

So there is definitely some rome to move, and some factions to add/replace.

[bradavies]

I reckon Kwarezmians and Timurids should go, but not Sicily. As Paragon suggested, make them vassals of the HRE maybe? It just wouldn't feel right without Sicily, they make such an impact on the Campaign for a lot of factions.

[Paragon]

What do we do to Naples then? Do we make then rebels? Do we create the kingdom of Naples as a faction? Do we allow silico-norman knights to be recruited in Hamburg? Do we make the Crown of Aragon need to kill the HRE as a campaign target? That and making them have to kill the Moorish Caliphate would be one of the most demanding campaign goals of al the damn game. Do we have the Almughavars fighting agaisnt Gothic Knights for Syracuse? Do we force Denmark and France to go as down as Sicily to finish their campaign goals? In short capaigns at that. The freaking 1450 campaign in SS 6.2 still had Sicily as a faction, as he had the south of Italy, and we are destroying it for 1220? I dunno pal, I only see problems here.

And no, you don't get faction slots for removing Persia or Sicily in late era, because they still exist in Early Era, and still would fill some of the script.

The italian factions do a better target for crusading armies IMO, and being sorrounded for me is an advantage, you can choose whatever target to want, have a lot of potential allies, and it's good for trade. For me HRE has a great army, in numbers and florins spent I mean, in my early era campaign (which you might remember, they start with much less territory than in early era) with Aragon, and after having all Spain, defeating the Moors and winning agaisnt Italy... they still had and army four times greater than mine when they started their war agaisnt me.

Also one year of existence is not what the game shows you. The game shows you the Mongols spending 15-20 tuns crushing the Khwazermians, instead of making them vassals in 1221 and then going north and west. And with the Latin Empire you have described very well what hapenned to Ireland, a removed faction I don't see people asking about. The Khwarzemian-Mongol conflict is very important and forged the legend of Genghis Khan for Europe, it shouldn't be removed. This game is about rewriting history with your gameplay habilities.

As I have said, being that strict with historical accuracy, Leon and Castille should be different factions until 1230, and remain like that if you kill Fernando. That would be fun, you know, 5 factions in Iberia, a region with 15 settlements.

[Irishpsycho]

What do we do to Naples then? Do we make then rebels? Do we create the kingdom of Naples as a faction? Do we allow silico-norman knights to be recruited in Hamburg? Do we make the Crown of Aragon need to kill the HRE as a campaign target? That and making them have to kill the Moorish Caliphate would be one of the most demanding campaign goals of al the damn game. Do we have the Almughavars fighting agaisnt Gothic Knights for Syracuse? Do we force Denmark and France to go as down as Sicily to finish their campaign goals? In short capaigns at that. The freaking 1450 campaign in SS 6.2 still had Sicily as a faction, as he had the south of Italy, and we are destroying it for 1220? I dunno pal, I only see problems here.

In 1220 Naples was part of the HRE too. As for Sicilian units, no, the HRE can recruit area of recruitment units like everyone else, and just like if they naturally conquered Sicily in game, they will get those and nothing else. The Crown of Aragon will be edited to need to control Naples and Syracuse, not kill the HRE. Denemark and france are unlikely to finish their campaign goals with the AI anyways, and unless Naples and Sicily are Uber garrisoned they will both likely be taken by the Italians and Africans before too long. It is not all about historical representation, but removing sicily and giving the territory to the HRE is easy, and will help improve other areas of the map. It is not about representing everything, since we can't with this game engine, it's about choosing the factions that most deserve the slot.

And no, you don't get faction slots for removing Persia or Sicily in late era, because they still exist in Early Era, and still would fill some of the script.

I'm no modder, but everyone but you says that removing a faction means that we can replace it with something else, so I'm gonna go with the majority here and say that removing them will free up faction slots.

The italian factions do a better target for crusading armies IMO, and being sorrounded for me is an advantage, you can choose whatever target to want, have a lot of potential allies, and it's good for trade. For me HRE has a great army, in numbers and florins spent I mean, in my early era campaign (which you might remember, they start with much less territory than in early era) with Aragon, and after having all Spain, defeating the Moors and winning agaisnt Italy... they still had and army four times greater than mine when they started their war agaisnt me.

Every faction creates a mega empire once an awhile, but the steryotype on this forum, and the thing that I've seen in every one of my non HRE games, is that the HRE gets eaten alive after an early crusade on their capital, since every Catholic faction goes to war with them at once, and they are surrounded by Catholic factions on all sides. Also, every AI faction will likely have more armies than you if your factions are equal sized, since the AI gets an economic boost to help it compete.

Also one year of existence is not what the game shows you. The game shows you the Mongols spending 15-20 tuns crushing the Khwazermians, instead of making them vassals in 1221 and then going north and west. And with the Latin Empire you have described very well what hapenned to Ireland, a removed faction I don't see people asking about. The Khwarzemian-Mongol conflict is very important and forged the legend of Genghis Khan for Europe, it shouldn't be removed. This game is about rewriting history with your gameplay habilities.

Ireland, the Latin Empire, Navarre, Wales, Milan, the Empire of Trebizond, and the Despotate of Epirus all lasted longer and did more than the Kwarezmians did in this period, and they are not even being considered as potential additions to the game, and you say that a country that lasts less than one year as an independant state and less than 20 as a vassal should be considered over not only them, but several of the biggest power players of the age like the Second Bulgarian Empire or Burgundy? Nope, you need allot more than that to convince me.

As I have said, being that strict with historical accuracy, Leon and Castille should be different factions until 1230, and remain like that if you kill Fernando. That would be fun, you know, 5 factions in Iberia, a region with 15 settlements.

Strict historical accuracy is not the goal, it is going for the best historical representation within the limits of the game engine. If the game engine could do it without removing any other more important factions, then I would certainly include every faction in existance at the time, but it cant, so we use the most historically relevant ones, and cut the rest. If we don't decide what factions to use based on historical relevance, then what should we decide based on? If its game balance, then we might as well make a perfectly round map, where every faction gets an equally sized Pizza slice of the map, and they all have units that are just as good as opne another. Since we are playing a game based on history, not balance, then we must conclude that some nations in 1220 were more likely to succeed than others, and those who, based on historical performance and the reality of their situation have the lowest chance of success are removed. If we did it any other way, then why not remove England, France and Castille because making them successful is too much like what happened in real life?

[Ichon]

What do we do to Naples then? Do we make then rebels? Do we create the kingdom of Naples as a faction? Do we allow silico-norman knights to be recruited in Hamburg? Do we make the Crown of Aragon need to kill the HRE as a campaign target? That and making them have to kill the Moorish Caliphate would be one of the most demanding campaign goals of al the damn game. Do we have the Almughavars fighting agaisnt Gothic Knights for Syracuse? Do we force Denmark and France to go as down as Sicily to finish their campaign goals? In short capaigns at that. The freaking 1450 campaign in SS 6.2 still had Sicily as a faction, as he had the south of Italy, and we are destroying it for 1220? I dunno pal, I only see problems here.

And no, you don't get faction slots for removing Persia or Sicily in late era, because they still exist in Early Era, and still would fill some of the script.

Also one year of existence is not what the game shows you. The game shows you the Mongols spending 15-20 tuns crushing the Khwazermians, instead of making them vassals in 1221 and then going north and west. And with the Latin Empire you have described very well what hapenned to Ireland, a removed faction I don't see people asking about. The Khwarzemian-Mongol conflict is very important and forged the legend of Genghis Khan for Europe, it shouldn't be removed. This game is about rewriting history with your gameplay habilities.

As I have said, being that strict with historical accuracy, Leon and Castille should be different factions until 1230, and remain like that if you kill Fernando. That would be fun, you know, 5 factions in Iberia, a region with 15 settlements.

By 1220 Sicilio Norman knights would be gone anyway. By this point the unique culture in Sicily had melded between Normans, Greeks, Muslims, and Sicilians and while it might be a special unit created more likely the Normans had managed to create feudal style military class and Hohenstaufens continued that with naming some Germans to titles and centralizing the state even more than the Normans had managed. By this point England and Sicily were the most centralized kingdoms in Europe and on the way to a semi-professional military though still relying on feudal relationships for large wars. The Pope clashed with Hohenstaufen dynasty not only over Sicily but the HRE presence in N Italy and the long series of wars finally ended the Hohenstaufen dynasty in 1260s with French invasion instigated by the Pope.

The reference to removing faction is possible because early campaign and late campaign can easily use separate EDU, they could even use separate map and other things as well. Right now they are basically clones with just the date and a very few other things changed.

In a 1220 campaign (or could easily be a 1270 start to make Sicily part of Aragon and Naples ruled by France while Mongols are split into 2 ruling north and south) the factions if following historical relationships would be changed. Aragon would start slightly larger while alot of other things would be different so relating to past campaigns doesn't make sense.

Khwarezmians in 1220 are effectively crushed- they already lost their most important regions and are mostly on the run. Way waste a faction slow there when so many other factions that had more of a chance of growth exist?

Leon and Castile are united because since 11th century different branches of the same family ruled and several times the union was joined under a single ruler before the kingdoms were officially made into one.

[Paragon]

In 1220 Naples was part of the HRE too. As for Sicilian units, no, the HRE can recruit area of recruitment units like everyone else, and just like if they naturally conquered Sicily in game, they will get those and nothing else. The Crown of Aragon will be edited to need to control Naples and Syracuse, not kill the HRE. Denemark and france are unlikely to finish their campaign goals with the AI anyways, and unless Naples and Sicily are Uber garrisoned they will both likely be taken by the Italians and Africans before too long. It is not all about historical representation, but removing sicily and giving the territory to the HRE is easy, and will help improve other areas of the map. It is not about representing everything, since we can't with this game engine, it's about choosing the factions that most deserve the slot.

They would need Naples, Bari, Syracuse and Palermo then, and fight any reinforcements the HRE didn't send historically, because Sicily was an independent faction from the HRE again in 1250. They only way to represent that is to make them vassals, free after Frederick II's death.

I'm no modder, but everyone but you says that removing a faction means that we can replace it with something else, so I'm gonna go with the majority here and say that removing them will free up faction slots.

As much as I understand it, and here I admit I'm no expert, unless we make a different mod for early and late, they're sharing files, you have to kill a faction in both eras for it to give a slot. They don't need to be present. Also, if you want to include new factions so badly, you gotta give them settlements, and settlements are 100% full, they even removed America because of that.

Every faction creates a mega empire once an awhile, but the steryotype on this forum, and the thing that I've seen in every one of my non HRE games, is that the HRE gets eaten alive after an early crusade on their capital, since every Catholic faction goes to war with them at once, and they are surrounded by Catholic factions on all sides. Also, every AI faction will likely have more armies than you if your factions are equal sized, since the AI gets an economic boost to help it compete.

All may be skrecthing it a bit. Maybe even three or four bits. The crusades to Frankfurt, are usually player selected, which shouldn't count. You know what you are doing when you make a faction start a war agaisnt all Chirstians. If anything it should be scripted to make a faction reconciled after an excomunation and/or cusade and stop all wars with that Chirstian factions. Also ok, they get more money, but I much more lands and they get an army four times bigger than mine?! It's not usually THAT bad.

Also I don't see how having Sicily an Naples helps agaisnt the crusades. They are also sorrounded by factions, mostly Chirstian ones.

Ireland, the Latin Empire, Navarre, Wales, Milan, the Empire of Trebizond, and the Despotate of Epirus all lasted longer and did more than the Kwarezmians did in this period, and they are not even being considered as potential additions to the game, and you say that a country that lasts less than one year as an independant state and less than 20 as a vassal should be considered over not only them, but several of the biggest power players of the age like the Second Bulgarian Empire or Burgundy? Nope, you need allot more than that to convince me.

You just said the first two did almost nothing. And no, Navarre didn't do too much by 1220, and I have no clue about the rest, but I'd guess that Milan didn't do anything really important either.

And you are mixing what I say. I say that in real life, what Genghis Khan did was completely destroy their capitol, they surrended an he "made them vassals" (lost their independece, considered mongols, paid taxes for them) and followed his rampage agaisnt eastern Europe. In game, Genghis Khan military destroys and conquers their cities, still taking the last Kharzemian settlements more or less when Kiev was being destroyed in real life. This is good for game balance, because if you pick cumans, turks, or even egyptians, being in war with the mongols at turn 3 (they surely have an army 20 or 15 times greater that yours) would be absolutely terrible. I believe you are underestimating what the mongol invasion of Persia means both historically and game-play wise.

Also if the Khawzermian's 21 years of existence seem dumb to you, then also remove Kiev. It was completely destroyed by the mongols in 1240. Or remove it if it indeed frees space, I think it wouldn't because it is in early era.
Can't tell about Bulgarian or Burgundy though, I know little about them. I know that the Bulgarian empire had its golden age here, taking a good deal of Greece and Hungary, and 20 years later they have a new decadence period, which I don't think is that important, but certainly more than Ireland, the Latin Empire and I guess Milan. Can't tell about Burgundy.

Strict historical accuracy is not the goal, it is going for the best historical representation within the limits of the game engine. If the game engine could do it without removing any other more important factions, then I would certainly include every faction in existance at the time, but it cant, so we use the most historically relevant ones, and cut the rest. If we don't decide what factions to use based on historical relevance, then what should we decide based on? If its game balance, then we might as well make a perfectly round map, where every faction gets an equally sized Pizza slice of the map, and they all have units that are just as good as opne another. Since we are playing a game based on history, not balance, then we must conclude that some nations in 1220 were more likely to succeed than others, and those who, based on historical performance and the reality of their situation have the lowest chance of success are removed. If we did it any other way, then why not remove England, France and Castille because making them successful is too much like what happened in real life?

The best historical representation within the limits of the game engine would be the vassals I said, or resurrecting factions. That sadly still fills space I'm afraid, but it's a good representation of how the factions removals you are talking about were very specific situations of 1220, than soon looked more like what we say as the current starting position of the game. Over the gameplay, keeping Sicily looks more accurate with what happened later. Again, a lot can change between different opinions, nationalities and even sources of research, but I think most of thes factions aren't that historically relevant.

[Ichon]

Sicily under Frederik's son remained under the Hohenstaufen's who were officially recognized as King of Germany (although since the Pope controlled bestowing title of Emperor and was at war with Hohenstaufens that title wasn't theirs). The Pope invited France to invade Sicily in return for France paying off Papal loans and agreeing to tribute as well as giving up some lands to make Papal States larger(at this time was barely around Rome). This relationship extended to the Avignon Papacy 30 years later which saw Pope's rule from France for nearly a century. After the last Hohenstaufen official Heir was killed by France the Dukes of Germany fought for land and there was no official King of Germany or Emperor of the HRE for the next decade until the rise of Habsburgs.

For how the mod is currently organized- changing faction in early or late is not a big deal in execution, its more about deciding the factions, creating the rosters, and making family tree. In 1220 Kiev would likely be replaced by Suzdal or something to the north as Kievan Rus was effectively split when Mongols arrived and completely shattered after 1240s. The current Mongol invasion is not the best option to me but due to MTW2 game mechanics only slightly better options are available with a lot of work which is why no one has done it yet.