RTR VII Patch 3 Bugs and Issues Thread

**20ninescene** · November 09, 2015, 12:32 PM

@Demagogos nicator: Okay I'll do that, but I have two questions: 1. do you think I also should make allied missile and/or cavalry troops available to the Civitas Sine Suffragio government? 2. should the original italian troops still be available in the Civitas Societas government?
@Alavaria yup I did that, it's much easier to figure out now =) Btw: if I send you the files, do you want to take a look at the traits if you know anything about traits in rome total war (I don't, and when I try to do things I cause a lot of ctd's =P ). If so, what you should do is: 1. give spies the right traits at the start of the campaign 2. apply player1's fixes 3. add the health/genetics/personality traits from RSII 4. Add a trait that hugely reduces the fertility (-20 for example) from generals when they are in enemy territory (or in the enemy zone of control and outside a settlement), and restore it when they are back in friendly territory with a delay of 3 turns (9 months) to simulate pregnancy. I also would like a small fertility bonus as compensation when generals are inside a settlement that is not under siege (again with a delay of 3 turns). 5. Replace the arse trait by more historical accurate homo and bi-sexuality trait. With a influence penalty (or in case of hellenic "active" homosexual generals a small bonus), depending on culture (for example a large penalty for the carthaginians, a medium penalty for the romans and no effects for the celts) and if the general prefers to be "active" or "passive" if you know what I mean =P (a passive general should get a greater penalty).

**Iskandar** · November 09, 2015, 01:29 PM

During the Mid Republic, the allied infantry became nigh indistinguishable from the Roman one, not sure about the cavalry. However, increased demands for manpower made the socii unhappy and ultimately led to the Socii War and the following Lex Julia (essentially granting Roman Citizenship to all Italia bar Cisalpine Gaul).

Therefore, I think it's reasonable that Civitas Sine Suffragio should be an upgrade for the Civitas Sine Sociorum and should replace the latter's infantry with Italic Legions (same stats as Roman ones, perhaps a little lower morale and/or stamina value). There probably should be some allied counterpart to the velites, as well. I'm not sure whether the cavalry retained its local flavour or became also more romanized, i.e. heavy shock cavalry. Either way, there should definitely be allied cavalry in CSS.

While you are at it, you should correct the script to add 36 population to Pydna, otherwise you have to manually disband another unit there to recruit Elephants on huge units settings.

And lastly, Roman Leadership system should be reworked somewhat to mitigate the negative morale effect of anything other than consul in hostile territory. Otherwise you are forced to keep all your legions together, losing a lot of flexibility (while historically, it was the other way around.) Perhaps FMs should lose their office after 2 turns outside a city, instead of one?

**20ninescene** · November 09, 2015, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Iskandar

During the Mid Republic, the allied infantry became nigh indistinguishable from the Roman one, not sure about the cavalry. However, increased demands for manpower made the socii unhappy and ultimately led to the Socii War and the following Lex Julia (essentially granting Roman Citizenship to all Italia bar Cisalpine Gaul).

Therefore, I think it's reasonable that Civitas Sine Suffragio should be an upgrade for the Civitas Sine Sociorum and should replace the latter's infantry with Italic Legions (same stats as Roman ones, perhaps a little lower morale and/or stamina value). There probably should be some allied counterpart to the velites, as well. I'm not sure whether the cavalry retained its local flavour or became also more romanized, i.e. heavy shock cavalry. Either way, there should definitely be allied cavalry in CSS.

While you are at it, you should correct the script to add 36 population to Pydna, otherwise you have to manually disband another unit there to recruit Elephants on huge units settings.

And lastly, Roman Leadership system should be reworked somewhat to mitigate the negative morale effect of anything other than consul in hostile territory. Otherwise you are forced to keep all your legions together, losing a lot of flexibility (while historically, it was the other way around.) Perhaps FMs should lose their office after 2 turns outside a city, instead of one?

Well this is the roman government tree right now: (note: the "marian reforms" are actually polybian reforms, and the onagers and polyboloi are post-marian units)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

You can edit it and post it here and if I like your changes I will apply them to my EDB. Also if there are still unit slots free so if you want to see a unit added, just tell me but I'll talk about the unit with a historian before I add it.

For the pydna script, well, I think it's already fixed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

For the roman leadership system, I will ask someone to do it for me because I'm not good in creating and editing traits and corresponding triggers (unless you like errorless ctd's =P )

**demagogos nicator** · November 09, 2015, 02:24 PM

During the Mid Republic, the allied infantry became nigh indistinguishable from the Roman one, not sure about the cavalry. However, increased demands for manpower made the socii unhappy and ultimately led to the Socii War and the following Lex Julia (essentially granting Roman Citizenship to all Italia bar Cisalpine Gaul).

Therefore, I think it's reasonable that Civitas Sine Suffragio should be an upgrade for the Civitas Sine Sociorum and should replace the latter's infantry with Italic Legions (same stats as Roman ones, perhaps a little lower morale and/or stamina value). There probably should be some allied counterpart to the velites, as well. I'm not sure whether the cavalry retained its local flavour or became also more romanized, i.e. heavy shock cavalry. Either way, there should definitely be allied cavalry in CSS.

I agree with above mentioned. Although not every Italic city went historically trough all three phases (from Civitas sine sociorum to civitas sine suffragio and then to full roman citisenship - I think most of them were stuck on the first level untill Lex Iulian was issued) making Civitas sine Suffragio upgrade to Civitas Sociorum would still make sanse gameplaywise to represent the social and militari changes from early to middle republic. Also at the current state of affairs player can spread roman citzenship over the whole penninsula way too early. As for skirmishers I think it would be fine just to enable regular roman velites for Civitas sine Suffragio settlements as adding Italic Velites which would be a clone of regular Velites is wast of unit slot. Regarding cavalry I think it is better to cunsult with some historian but I am sure some there should be some availabe in CsS settlements.

Well this is the roman government tree right now: (note: the "marian reforms" are actually polybian reforms, and the onagers and polyboloi are post-marian units)

If you are adding camillian trops and making polybian reforms you may consider making Italic Legions just reform replacement for native socii units instead of messing with governments. Only problem I see with both possible solution is that relativley large number of units will just disapear for good quite early in the game (whole native Italic roster). However, they will still be in the game in the form of mercaneries.

so if there are still unit slots free so if you want to see a unit added, just tell me but I'll talk about the unit with a historian before I add it.

For the pydna script, well, I think it's already fixed:

I would suggest to add some units representing Celtic Castro culture of north Hispania (Asturia, Cantabria). Most probaly it would be light spearmen armed with some throwing javelins representing regular tribal warrior. I know that Hamilcar Barca former RTR VII lead historian wanted such a unit but it never get into the game because of lack of manpower/low priority.IIRC, RSII have such a unit which can be eventually used. I forgot haw the unit is called there.

**Mausolos of Caria** · November 09, 2015, 02:25 PM

Iskandar is very much right. I will only add that the Socii should contribute their own, more various and able cavalry. Their soldiers originally had a part called Extraordinarii who formed somewhat of an elite, which is described by Polybios. I can't remember details about the skirmishers either, but I'm pretty sure they had some. Since Velites were only ''invented'' in 212 BC they would have been the only skilled skirmishers in the Roman army until the Second Punic War (all the Roman proletarii skirmishers were useless, which was the reason why the Velites were formed at all).

@Dem

Our Iberian historian on RTRP (CheesyFreak) suggested axemen (with javelins) for the Asturians

**Alavaria** · November 09, 2015, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by ThatOldSchoolEmoDude

1. give spies the right traits at the start of the campaign

That's doable.

Originally Posted by ThatOldSchoolEmoDude

2. apply player1's fixes 3. add the health/genetics/personality traits from RSII 4. Add a trait that hugely reduces the fertility (-20 for example) from generals when they are in enemy territory (or in the enemy zone of control and outside a settlement), and restore it when they are back in friendly territory with a delay of 3 turns (9 months) to simulate pregnancy. I also would like a small fertility bonus as compensation when generals are inside a settlement that is not under siege (again with a delay of 3 turns). 5. Replace the arse trait by more historical accurate homo and bi-sexuality trait. With a influence penalty (or in case of hellenic "active" homosexual generals a small bonus), depending on culture (for example a large penalty for the carthaginians, a medium penalty for the romans and no effects for the celts) and if the general prefers to be "active" or "passive" if you know what I mean =P (a passive general should get a greater penalty).

Yeah I have no clue how to work those text files...

**20ninescene** · November 10, 2015, 12:16 AM

@demagogos nicator:
I edited the roman government tree a bit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

@Mausolos & demagogos: I'll add such a unit then

@Alavaria: then I'll ask someone else to edit the trait files

**Iskandar** · November 10, 2015, 05:42 AM

It seems that Civitas Sine Suffragio requires Marian Reforms in order to recruit Italic Hastati/Principes etc. However, that was not the case. The Socii gradually started to emulate roman infantry and by the time of the Second Punic War they were pretty much the same. The Marian reforms were over a century later and did away with the cavalry and light infantry and merged all three heavy infantry types into one.

Basically, as Roman draw on allied manpower increased, their armies started to become more similar. This fostered dissatisfaction among the Socii as time wore on, though, which is why I think Civitas Sine Suffragio has negative happiness and law bonuses. So CS should have all the local flavour infantry and cavalry, whereas CSS should replace these with Italic Velites/Hastati/etc. and some cavalry, whether local or romanized, I am not sure. All of this needs to happen independent of the Marian Reforms, the Reforms should replace the Roman and Allied units with the cohorts.

**20ninescene** · November 10, 2015, 05:51 AM

Those "marian reforms" are actually not marian reforms but polybian reforms instead

**Alavaria** · November 10, 2015, 07:45 AM

See this is what happens when people don't read code as code.

**Iskandar** · November 10, 2015, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by ThatOldSchoolEmoDude

Those "marian reforms" are actually not marian reforms but polybian reforms instead

Originally Posted by Alavaria

See this is what happens when people don't read code as code.

Didn't read his previous post in its entirety, wondered for a moment about the string meaning and decided to go with the simplest explanation. Occam's Razor is not set in stone, especially when operating from faulty information, nothing to see, move along, these droids aren't the ones you are looking for...

p.s. Also, naming conventions used to matter

**Alavaria** · November 10, 2015, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Iskandar

p.s. Also, naming conventions used to matter

They do, we're at this point basically abusing the ALX.exe to do all kinds of special things it wasn't envisioned for by the original creators.

But we have to live with their hardcodes, like why would RTW ever need more than 500 units, or 200 regions or 20(21) factions?!

**DeathtoEgo** · November 10, 2015, 10:31 PM

Regarding the starting spies not having the "Native of" trait, I think every starting spy doesn't have it, it either wasn't possible or was by design. I just use the starting spy do the conventional spystuffs.

**Alavaria** · November 11, 2015, 01:33 AM

More like when the traits were added, the person didn't think of editing the descr_strat to give these. Obviously every other spy has it, you'll note the starting ones even have the right names (eg: of Sparta).

**DeathtoEgo** · November 11, 2015, 09:22 PM

I remember reading this thread ages ago RTR-VII-Spies-informers-conspirators-and-traitors, they don't say whether or not the spies can be fixed so I guess you can edit the descr_strat, you'll just have to start a new campaign, i guess. I gather that a an effort to polish up RTRVII is in the works, if so here are a couple issues I remember having while playing a while back. Playing as the Romans and the Scroll ancillaries they added in (I think) patch 3, were way too easy to get, all my family members would be have all 8 ancillary spots full, most being the scrolls , which made transferring the the Cursus Honorum ancillaries a huge pain. Making them harder to get or lowering the chance would probably help with the issue. There is also a bugfix submod in the submod section that had a few fixes that I feel were pretty spot on, might be worth checking out. Thanks, good luck.

**Alavaria** · November 11, 2015, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by DeathtoEgo

the Scroll ancillaries they added in (I think) patch 3, were way too easy to get, all my family members would be have all 8 ancillary spots full, most being the scrolls , which made transferring the the Cursus Honorum ancillaries a huge pain. Making them harder to get or lowering the chance would probably help with the issue.

Those scrolls are quite troublesome at times. Don't leave generals in settlements unless you're ready to get loaded down with them... or have a plan to make max use of it.

**demagogos nicator** · November 12, 2015, 03:22 AM

Playing as the Romans and the Scroll ancillaries they added in (I think) patch 3, were way too easy to get, all my family members would be have all 8 ancillary spots full, most being the scrolls , which made transferring the the Cursus Honorum ancillaries a huge pain. Making them harder to get or lowering the chance would probably help with the issue. There is also a bugfix submod in the submod section that had a few fixes that I feel were pretty spot on, might be worth checking out. Thanks, good luck.

Strangelly enough in my current roman campaign (and first in RTR VII in the same time) my FM did recieved any single scroll ancillary but all the AI helenistic characters I have seen on the campaign map had the tons of them.

**20ninescene** · November 21, 2015, 03:37 PM

Is there anyone who knows how to replace the bugged barbarian wooden walls by the ones from vanilla? The gates are invisible and the destruction animation is missing.

**KurtSuckert** · October 16, 2017, 04:32 AM

Hi,
I'm playing a Eacid campaign and around 261 a "reform counter" building appeared in my capital. Looking for informations I read that there were territorial achievements for this reform, but also that I have to be at war with Rome. The problem is that I alrealdy destroyed Rome : did I only missed the reform or will this break the mod in some way ?

**Pat89** · October 16, 2017, 02:50 PM

Just thinking out loud here from a logical point of view... But if those are reforms that historically happened to help them beat the Romans (hence the requirement to be at war with them?), but you already did beat them, then what would be the purpose of the reform? Don't try to fix what isn't broken...

tldr: you should've waited with beating them xD

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