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Thread: HRE units

  1. #21
    Waffen9999's Avatar Kirā
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    Weren't the Cumans pushed towards Hungary by the Mongol invasions, only to be kicked out again by the Teutonic Knights?
    I don't know about the Teutonic Knights kicking them out, but they definately probably caused them to leave, but they definately did go to Hungary, only to basically be attacked by the Hungarian people as they hated the amount of pasturage they were using. The Mongols than also decisively smashed what few decided to honor their allegiance to the Hungarian King at the battle of Mohi. The Cumans had proceeded south towards Greece ravaging everythign in their path in retirbution for the murder of their Khan, probably by the Teutonic Knights. They kind of got lost in history after that.
    "When I lead my army against Baghdad in anger, whether you hide in heaven or in earth, I will bring you down from the spinning spheres; I will toss you in the air like a lion. I will leave no one alive in your realm; I will burn your city, your land, your self. If you wish to spare yourself and your venerable family, give heed to my advice with the ear of intelligence. If you do not, you will see what God has willed." -Hülegü, the "Destroyer of Baghdad"

  2. #22
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Kiev is pretty strong in Stainless steel tough, I haven't fought the HRE ever with them tough because I tend to go east and south, never West And the Danes tend to destroy the HRE in most of my games.

    I tend to do really well against most Pagans and Muslims whilst staying allied to Novgorod, The Kievans are pretty good at siege defence and in battle a three line formation with Archers on the high ground, those Javelin throwers right below them and a defensive line of regular infantry in the front can take on most charges, ranged cavalry is verry good at picking off the oncomming enemy from the non shield side, or assasinating their General. If you have Berdishe militia, then they are usefull counter chargers, keep them near your main defensive line and after the ennemy charge, charge them in the ennemy, preferably it's flanks. Later on in the game you get verry tough cavalry and archers

  3. #23
    Judeman266's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: HRE units

    @MikeNice808

    Luchniki are not elites and do not use the same arrows or quality of bows as some of the other eastern units using composite bows, that is why there attack is weaker. Instead of complaining and changing a units stats, why not learn to play with them. Stop trying to meet the Eastern nomad/horse archers head on and only fight siege battles.

    When fighting in Western Europe, use flanking maneuvers to draw out and tire the heavy cavalry. Use your medium and light cavalry to harass the infantry, and use your Boyars to massacre the exhausted enemy cavalry and heavy infantry. If you've ever fought the Battle of Tannenberg, the HRE/TO starts with 6-8 units of heavy cavalry. There is no way you could beat them head on. But the adviser tells you to draw off the enemy heavy cavalry with your light cavalry while you destroy the enemy infantry.

    To spell it out, deploy your HA on the extreme flanks and as soon as the battle starts, order them to flank and surround the enemy heavy cavalry. Use your lighter cavalry to charge their archers, regular infantry, and light cavalry while your infantry moves in. Obviously there will be hiccups but that is where experience comes in.
    Last edited by Saint Nicholas; March 12, 2012 at 07:18 PM.


  4. #24
    ╬Ritterbruder╬'s Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waffen9999 View Post
    I don't know about the Teutonic Knights kicking them out, but they definately probably caused them to leave, but they definately did go to Hungary, only to basically be attacked by the Hungarian people as they hated the amount of pasturage they were using. The Mongols than also decisively smashed what few decided to honor their allegiance to the Hungarian King at the battle of Mohi. The Cumans had proceeded south towards Greece ravaging everythign in their path in retirbution for the murder of their Khan, probably by the Teutonic Knights. They kind of got lost in history after that.
    I know the Khan got murdered, but I never heard any relations to that murder to the Teutonic knights (not in my books, at least).
    The teutonic knights came to Hungary because the Hungarians had a bit of trouble with the nomad raiders, but they were too effective in clearing them out the Hungarians eventually claimed all their posessions as well. Hungary eventually was a try-out for the Baltic crusades.

    one thing however: in my literature (relatively limited) I find indications that both the Tatar tribes as well as the remnants of the Golden Horde formed the Crimean Khanate (before the Russians overthrew it)
    does anybody have some insights on that one?
    Last edited by Ishan; March 14, 2012 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Double Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    one thing however: in my literature (relatively limited) I find indications that both the Tatar tribes as well as the remnants of the Golden Horde formed the Crimean Khanate (before the Russians overthrew it)
    does anybody have some insights on that one?
    Yes that's what happened. When the Golden Horde disintegrated in the mid 1400's it splintered into various Khanates. The Crimean one was one of them.
    "When I lead my army against Baghdad in anger, whether you hide in heaven or in earth, I will bring you down from the spinning spheres; I will toss you in the air like a lion. I will leave no one alive in your realm; I will burn your city, your land, your self. If you wish to spare yourself and your venerable family, give heed to my advice with the ear of intelligence. If you do not, you will see what God has willed." -Hülegü, the "Destroyer of Baghdad"

  6. #26
    Judeman266's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: HRE units

    The Crimean Khanate was an ally/protectorate intermittently to the Ottomans and was required to provide cavalry to the Ottomans for every campaign until the late 1600s when Russia/Muscovy became strong enough push back the Turks.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Trying 1 on 1 using Kievan against HRE units, losing all battles. Meh.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Western Europe factions have the best late rosters in terms of stats(as they should) so winning against them requires special strategies.Do what real eastern generals did-abuse horsearchers.Also shock infantry with AP(like axemen) are really useful against heavy armored opponents if used correctly.hf
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis_GR View Post
    Western Europe factions have the best late rosters in terms of stats(as they should) so winning against them requires special strategies.Do what real eastern generals did-abuse horsearchers.Also shock infantry with AP(like axemen) are really useful against heavy armored opponents if used correctly.hf
    You must be trolling. First of all, we (Russians) are not "eastern", we're Eastern European. Second, I don't wanna abuse horse archers, Russians never used that strategy (seriously, we didn't defeat Germans at the Lake Peipus with a horse archers rush). Third, no, "western" factions should not have the best units, this way thinking is very stereotypical and ignorant ("eastern" Mongols used to have far superior armies that utterly destroyed Hungarians and made HRE literally beg them not to attack).

    Anyway, nice underlying western chauvinistic post. Thanks for the advice though.

  10. #30
    Jambat's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    Trying 1 on 1 using Kievan against HRE units, losing all battles. Meh.
    And I just took a Kievan force comprised totally of forces you would find in 1100-1200, against a High Era HRE army (Pavise Troops, Imperial Knights, Foot Knights, Sergeants, etc...), on VH/VH, ReallyBadAI, and annihilated them.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I even completely screwed up and forgot to re-enable the skirmish ability of my archers after a shock charge and turn off fire-at-will, which ended up costing me a ton of my casualties. I included multiple units of Imperial Knights and a Generals Bodyguard, and only one managed to make it to my lines for a charge. The General was dead way before that, and once I wrapped around their forces, they broke quickly.



    I'm not trying to be a jerk here, man. You have all the tools you need to beat the hell out of the HRE, but I promise you if you try to just run up and out-punch them you will rightly lose that battle.
    I see the better and approve; I follow the worse.

    If you liked my post or thought I was helpful, hit that +rep and leave your name so I can keep an eye out for when you deserve some. Unless you suck. Then you aren't getting crap. Ever.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    seriously, we didn't defeat Germans at the Lake Peipus with a horse archers rush).
    "You" did?

    The battle and the circumstances of Lake Peipus are an excellent exampel for the inferiority of every army when it comes to bad terrain and ambushes. I don't want to play the great victory of Nevsky down. But fact is that they outnumbered (some say 2:1) the Teutonic Order ("Germans" ...) and attacked them from behind. I guaranty you that this tactic would work for Stainless Steel as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    Third, no, "western" factions should not have the best units, this way thinking is very stereotypical and ignorant
    I think we all agree. But there is no proof for it in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    ("eastern" Mongols used to have far superior armies that utterly destroyed Hungarians and made HRE literally beg them not to attack).
    The Mongols had a great and large professional army. That's true.
    But their strength was in tactics and speed not so much in individual superiority. I doubt that a western late medieval knight would be inferior to a Mongol lancer. But when it comes to tactics, he would have real problems catching these slippy horse archers.
    What would you do when a horde of thousands of well organised and equipped horsemen and siege experts is about to attack you? Stand your ground with your inferior numbers and slower horses because you know that your skill and armour is better when it comes to hand to hand combat?

    Once again: Don't give the Western Factions a home field advantage! They have the better heavy cavalry and great infantry. So you should not try to face them in their own style! Even when it means to use horse archers.
    Wait till you get to face the Romans (the greek ones not the holys ...). Then you have a real cause to complain

    (oh, I love the discussions about the evil Byzzis beating the crap out of every other factions )

  12. #32
    ╬Ritterbruder╬'s Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by RC-1136 View Post
    oh, I love the discussions about the evil Byzzis beating the crap out of every other factions
    they are a more genuine cause of complaint, with their armies of robocops ,
    funny how we got from HRE to Eastern factions to Byzantines, I'll bet we'll have gone around the world in 2 more pages
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judeman266 View Post
    @MikeNice808

    Luchniki are not elites and do not use the same arrows or quality of bows as some of the other eastern units using composite bows, that is why there attack is weaker. Instead of complaining and changing a units stats, why not learn to play with them. Stop trying to meet the Eastern nomad/horse archers head on and only fight siege battles.

    When fighting in Western Europe, use flanking maneuvers to draw out and tire the heavy cavalry. Use your medium and light cavalry to harass the infantry, and use your Boyars to massacre the exhausted enemy cavalry and heavy infantry. If you've ever fought the Battle of Tannenberg, the HRE/TO starts with 6-8 units of heavy cavalry. There is no way you could beat them head on. But the adviser tells you to draw off the enemy heavy cavalry with your light cavalry while you destroy the enemy infantry.

    To spell it out, deploy your HA on the extreme flanks and as soon as the battle starts, order them to flank and surround the enemy heavy cavalry. Use your lighter cavalry to charge their archers, regular infantry, and light cavalry while your infantry moves in. Obviously there will be hiccups but that is where experience comes in.


    Like I never thought of this...cmon gimme a break over here... As units grow more modern its only logical to assume they get better....and who the hell is erasing my posts....I been playing this mod for years so I tried it all already...giving Luchniki 6 damage is not over powering them....its making them competitve...you are giving me total war 101....been there done that...

    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    Trying 1 on 1 using Kievan against HRE units, losing all battles. Meh.


    Dont say that here...they will erase you...
    Last edited by Ishan; March 14, 2012 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Double Post

  14. #34
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    Default Re: HRE units

    @alis_sakfok I didnt meant to offend u or anything and i am not trolling.All "eastern" factions have horsearchers to counter the superior western heavy cavalry that was my point.
    Furthermore "eastern" factions generally have better foot archers and spearmen.

    Btw if u know what u are doing at the battlefield u can win the poor AI with inferior units easily.hf
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Quote Originally Posted by RC-1136 View Post
    "You" did?

    The battle and the circumstances of Lake Peipus are an excellent exampel for the inferiority of every army when it comes to bad terrain and ambushes. I don't want to play the great victory of Nevsky down. But fact is that they outnumbered (some say 2:1) the Teutonic Order ("Germans" ...) and attacked them from behind. I guaranty you that this tactic would work for Stainless Steel as well.
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    Enough said.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: HRE units

    It's not RC's fault if you cant beat the HRE with Kiev.

    /thread

  17. #37
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    Default Re: HRE units

    This has nothing to do with nationality. The Battle of Lake Peipus was only a minor battle for the Teutonic Order even though they dropped "their claims" on Russian lands. Most of the army of the Order was the Livonian Order commanding thousands of Estonians. Not to minimize the great feats of the great and savvy Nevsky, there were less than 30 knights killed or captured, and that was after hours of fighting and archers peppering them with arrows, and when they were retreating. I understand that your whole life you have been taught about what the Teutonic Order and Nazi Germany did but that doesn't mean that you should hate all Germans now, and have a complex where you need to beat the German faction in a campaign to feel fulfilled.

    Russian archers did not have the same composite bows and quality arrows as the Mongols. Stop complaining about stats and step up your gameplay. The Kievan Rus' was destroyed because of the Mongol invasion. You're complaining about taking on the might of the full HRE with knights making up 1/3 of the army. Obviously it's going to be hard. Don't use their tactics, make your own. Jambat showed you could dominate the HRE, but you continue to complain.

    Is it just me or do we constantly keep seeing the same arguments over and over? Some nationalist fanboy comes on the forum to complain how he wants some particular faction to murder the faction of the historical enemy of a predecessor of his country. He speaks in we's and our's like he is from the Medieval era. They show a particular hate for all past and current people of that nation, that is why nationalism is bad.


  18. #38
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Stats aren't everything in MTW2...

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by alis_sakfok View Post
    What's so bad about that logic? It means I can't counter them with anything because their cavalry is much better than mine, and their infantry is equally good or better as well.

    I don't like it because I want to own Germans with my Russian faction in every game possible.
    You didn't say this but you did say:

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNice808 View Post
    I gace Junior Druzhina 5 damage with arrows instead of 3(are they throwing rocks or shooting arrows?)
    PB did not arbitrarily assign stats to units, I feel like this is the hundredth time I've said this. Anyway stats are not the be all, end all in M2TW. Thats why vanilla was so broken, players needed to see stats to feel a unit was useful. Anyway, look at the attached file for the RC 2.0 stats

    Unit stats are not made to be balanced, they are based on the historical efficacy of the unit except for some units like Battlefield Assassins, Sherwood Archers and the like. The only way to balance factions is through economy, infrastructure development, and terrain not through unit stats.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Ishan; March 14, 2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Double Post


  20. #40
    Ferdiad's Avatar Legatus Legionis
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    Default Re: HRE units

    Having everything balanced would be boring too, ala Shogun 2. Inequality makes the game better in this instance.

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