The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

[Papay]

I trully believe that the Halabjah attack in Northen Iraq was justified. Saddam gassed 8000 people yet he managed to crash the rebellion saving the lives of Iraqi soldiers who were fighting Iran

[Vanoi]

I trully believe that the Halabjah attack in Northen Iraq was justified. Saddam gassed 8000 people yet he managed to crash the rebellion saving the lives of Iraqi soldiers who were fighting Iran

Cool.

[Ketnix]

I trully believe that the Halabjah attack in Northen Iraq was justified. Saddam gassed 8000 people yet he managed to crash the rebellion saving the lives of Iraqi soldiers who were fighting Iran

I see what you did there.

[motiv-8]

Quite possibly one of the worst analogies that's ever been made on this forum.

But whatever, having a real discussion on the actual topic is lame anyway.

[Vanoi]

Quite possibly one of the worst analogies that's ever been made on this forum.

But whatever, having a real discussion on the actual topic is lame anyway.

A real discussion is boring and will lead to the same arguments each and every time. This topic has been debated to death.

[Ketnix]

Its an older thread, if there was anything worth to discuss he could of made a newer thread.

[Chukada1]

It was totally justified to drop atomic bombs on Japan.

They probably should have dropped an atomic bomb in Tokyo, or the Japanese cabinet, Emperor's family, that sort of thing. That would have been justified and totally cool. Then the Tokyo trial shamble wouldn't have to happen, rather, the Americans should have just shot all the Japanese ministers and senior officers, and when their version of doctor death asked for amnesty in exchange for medical data, they should have vivisected him alive without anesthesia after the surgeon rapes him first.

Bring Herohito to the chopping block.

The whole Japanese nation had it coming.

[Petrucci]

This should be moved to ethos and mores sub forum.

[Condottiere 40K]

[Ludicus]

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"
Hermann Goering

[conon394]

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"
Hermann Goering

And yet in Japan those same common people did not abandon there government when anyone could see the war was lost and helped their government cause the death of some 200,000 people a month in the GEACPS in 1945 (in countries that had not attacked Japan or been driven to war by their leaders) - how long would you have let the war drag on to save them?

Goering might have been right or wrong - but that still does justify making the supposed 'innocents' of the Atomic bombing into Super Victims whose lives outweigh all others.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yay lets kill over 240,000 civilians.
Isn't that the greatest thing America has done, look at everything America has done for them, such nice people.

[Col. Tartleton]

It was totally justified to drop atomic bombs on Japan.

They probably should have dropped an atomic bomb in Tokyo, or the Japanese cabinet, Emperor's family, that sort of thing. That would have been justified and totally cool. Then the Tokyo trial shamble wouldn't have to happen, rather, the Americans should have just shot all the Japanese ministers and senior officers, and when their version of doctor death asked for amnesty in exchange for medical data, they should have vivisected him alive without anesthesia after the surgeon rapes him first.

Bring Herohito to the chopping block.

The whole Japanese nation had it coming.

Pretty much. Except torturing said guy. That would be tacky. The Japanese offered no quarter. Unless I'm mistaken our fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people than either of the Atomic bombs. The only difference was how much ordinance it took, one bomb vs many. Hiroshima burned down, it wasn't vaporized, except the ground zero. However we didn't bomb Kyoto because we were trying to avoid a nation wide last stand when we did the invasion.

However it was deemed more practical to cannibalize Japan and turn them into a client state.

[conon394]

Yay lets kill over 240,000 civilians.
Isn't that the greatest thing America has done, look at everything America has done for them, such nice people.

Japan did start the war, the Japanese empire was the direct cause of the deaths of a quarter million people a month by 1945 in the territory it controlled - so your solution is? Its rather odd how the innocents of Hiroshima get so much much thought but not those of Imperial Japan's by stander victims in China, Korea or Indonesia...

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Korea? I'm pretty sure Korea was part of the empire. You actually think Japan started the war? The American government wanted the war, they wanted the destruction of Japanese power in the Pacific since 1899, read reports on the Philippines by the American government in the Boxer Revolt and what they were afraid that Japan would become too strong after the Boxer Revolt. Japan isn't so much as guilty for starting a war with America as opposed to being just plain stupid. By attacking Pearl Harbour Japan gave America a justification, after all it was America's goal to get rid of Japan's dominance in the Pacific and to pretty much destroy the Japanese empire.

Besides it's not like the Emperor or all of the people were in complete control or wanted the war to take the course it did. After all, didn't the Japanese have a Gestapo. Especially when there was a coup against the politicians in 1936.

[Hakkapeliitta]

~250 000 Japanese civilians is less than millions of Japanese civilians and all the hundreds of thousands of Chinese, Vietnamese, etc, that the Japanese occupation would have killed had it not been for the nuclear bombs and the opportunity to surrender that it gave to Hirohito.

Besides it's not like the Emperor or all of the people were in complete control or wanted the war to take the course it did. After all, didn't the Japanese have a Gestapo. Especially when there was a coup against the politicians in 1936.

The Emperor had very much control: he could order and direct military operations; his signature was required for the use of chemical weapons which he authorized hundreds of separate times; he could have stood up to the military at any point, but he only did so when he had the excuse of the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki. The war-cabinet was dead-locked with the Emperor having the deciding vote. He ultimately decided to cast the vote to surrender, but before that there was an attempted coup to keep Japan from surrendering. If Emperor Hirohito wanted to surrender, the nuclear bombings were the thing that allowed him to do so, and that's what he cited as the reason for why Japan lost the war when he gave his speech. He didn't say it was the Reds that made Japan lose the war, he cited the nuclear bombs.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I think that the major point was that had America not nuked 250,000 people then Japan wouldn't have surrendered and millions of Japanese would have died in the fighting. But why does Japan need to surrender, what's wrong with a peace treaty.

[Vanoi]

I think that the major point was that had America not nuked 250,000 people then Japan wouldn't have surrendered and millions of Japanese would have died in the fighting. But why does Japan need to surrender, what's wrong with a peace treaty.

Ha. As if they actually deserved one.

[Wulfburk]

I dont believe in ww2 there was room for a peace treaty, that would allow the agressiveness of japan to return in a few years. IMO Churchill was more than right to ask for the unconditional surrender of germany, italy and japan.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I think that nothing would be any worse if Italy didn't surrender. If Japan only had Japan then they could get a peace treaty.