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Thread: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

  1. #281
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Edit,
    Azoth

    I said that, actually.

    To be fair, the risk of nuclear fallout was not well understood: Marshall stated that he had planned to use atomic bombs on Kyushu beachs (48 hours) prior to an allied invasion - the American army would likely have suffered the catastrophic effects of the bomb.

    That's very much true. I remember reading an Army report about the radiation levels, if I can find it again I'll post it, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including the exposure by US personnel and Japanese civilians. I believe my grandpa told me he was at Hiroshima some two or three weeks after the bombing. I also recently read a book that told of POWs taking trains and going through downtown Hiroshima, shocked.

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  2. #282

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    This is a really interesting discussion -running in circles.
    I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said.
    Why not let POTUS have the last word?.


    "How could they be stupid enough to let us do this, maybe if they didnt have such chinky eyes, they would see it coming." Said President Harry Trumen.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  3. #283
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    In the US edu system its been taught as a political policy failure, and mil unecesary event for a decade.
    Hanny is one of the oddest things I have seen you post - I was unaware there was monolithic US education system. Second of course since there is no historical/academic condescension about the use of the Bomb your statement is to be nice, silly.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #284
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    "How could they be stupid enough to let us do this, maybe if they didnt have such chinky eyes, they would see it coming."
    Did he really said that?
    Well, that doesn't surprise me. Have you read Samuel Walker´s book?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #285

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Last edited by Hanny; April 04, 2012 at 02:15 PM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default

    So an explicitly revisionist line of work - one that is certainly not generally accepted and a man known to litter his works with distorted quotes and out of context quotes and suspect scholarship.

    "How could they be stupid enough to let us do this, maybe if they didnt have such chinky eyes, they would see it coming." Said President Harry Trumen.
    Would you care to actually source that Hanny? All too many of the quotes tossed out by you or Ludicus are vastly out of context or have significant gaps or are in fact recollections by somebody else about what somebody supposedly said for me to take any of them very much at face vale.

    Similarly Ludicus you do realize a couple of your supposed quotes from Groves and Byrnes back in #216 are not quotes, but what Leo Szilard recalls they supposedly said.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; April 04, 2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: double post
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #287

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So an explicitly revisionist line of work - one that is certainly not generally accepted and a man known to litter his works with distorted quotes and out of context quotes and suspect scholarship.
    Fact free as usual. Just how many times must i tell you i have no wish to converse with the likes of yourself for you to get the message?

    Gars work is required reading at almost all Universities in the states.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Same as in the RoTw

    Breaker of Horses – well at least one wild mustang… - oh no wait 2 horses, 49 acres I'm like Xenophon's buddy nobody in the hoi polloi mob will trust me...ahhh!
    Actually thats because you have along history of being dishonest.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; April 05, 2012 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Fixed long links.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  8. #288
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So an explicitly "revisionist" line of work
    Have you read Walker´s book? probably not. Read before commenting.
    As Robert Ferrell has put it, "Every now and then a notion or idea arises that is radically wrong". In other words,revisionism.

    But,
    1) is Samuel Walker a revisionist? (read below*)

    2)The usual suspects (call the Inquisition/Frank)...) are Alperovitz,Blackett, Bernstein, Gregg Herken, Robert Messer,Leon Sigal Sherwin, Lisle Rose. By the way, revisionism is older than the orthodox position. Stimson laid out the basic orthodox position in 1948, in his autobiography, "On Active Service in War and Peace". The new orthodox position appeared in the 1990´s, and culminated in your beloved historian, R. Frank. (1999)
    Later, in 2005, Hasewaga´s book supported some parts of the revisionist position while discarding others. In, 2007 W. Miscamble discarded/contradicted the atomic diplomacy argument (revisionist)
    In the same year (2007) a new book from Hasewaga (the End of the Pacific War, Reappraisals) has diverging positions. Another excellent book is Kort´s The Columbia Guide to the Cold War.

    (*) That said, allow me to cite Samuel Walker,[U] the revisionist in a review of Frank´s Downfall book,

    "Frank´s analysis drives a stake into the heart of the most cherished revisionist contention- that Japan was seeking peace and the United States prolonged the war by refusing to soften its demand for unconditional surrender"

    And, in Historiographical Essay Recent Literature on Truman’s Atomic Bomb Decision: A Search for Middle Ground, Samuel Walker,
    It's worth reading because it's a thoughtful account of the different points of view,

    Historiographical Essay

    Brief excerpt,

    "Revisionist and traditionalist scholars were more adept at exposing flaws in the arguments of their adversaries than in providing a convincing answer to the crucial question of whether the use of the bomb was necessary to achieve a timely victory over Japan...

    Like the revisionist position, the traditional view suffered from major fallacies.

    The weaknesses and omissions in the traditional and revisionist interpretations made clear that neither provided a fully satisfactory explanation for the decision to drop the atomic bomb. Both fell short of offering a convincing answer to the question of whether the use of the bomb was necessary. “One of the curious features of the argument over why the atomic bomb was used on Japan,” Stanley Goldberg commented in 1995, “has been that both historiographic camps have treated questions as if one had to choose between the two alternatives.

    ..The most prominent and prolific of the scholars who stood somewhere between the polar extremes was Barton J. Bernstein. Just as Bernstein criticized the revisionist position, he skeptically probed fundamental traditionalist tenets...In keeping with the polarized nature of the debate over the use of the atomic bomb, Bernstein’s findings were sharply attacked by both revisionist and traditionalist scholars...Bernstein not only questioned the foundations of both the revisionist and traditionalist interpretations but also offered his own middle-ground view of whether the use of the bomb was necessary to achieve victory at the earliest possible moment (already cited, previous posts)

    Some of the most important and most interesting recent scholarly investigations have closely examined Japanese materials to provide a much fuller account of events in Tokyo during the last days of the war. While offering rich insights into Japanese policymaking, they largely supported the work of scholars who took a position on the use of the bomb between revisionism and traditionalism. And, perhaps not surprisingly, they also stirred new controversies"

    This was not the first time that a centrist view seemed to prevail.Walker found in 1990 a historiographical consensus that “largely resolved” the issues that had divided traditionalist and revisionist scholarship...Nevertheless, the new sources and especially the new scholarly work that have appeared in the past few years have made abundantly clear that the traditionalist and revisionist interpretations are too weak and too dogmatic to be accepted unconditionally"

    Scholars who took a middle-ground position...by demonstrating serious deficiencies in both the traditionalist and revisionist positions, they provided new perspectives and much-needed correctives to the oversimplified and uncompromising formulas that framed much of the scholarly and popular debate during and after the mid-1990s"
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 04, 2012 at 03:09 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #289
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Fact free as usual.
    Hardly, the lack of fact is the Fact you and Ludicus continue to present Gar Alpowitz as some kind of conventional wisdom standard rather the leading figure of the revisionist side of a very deeply dived debate that has dived historians for decades and has no significant consensus on most of the issues that have been tossed about in this thread.

    Just how many times must i tell you i have no wish to converse with the likes of yourself for you to get the message?
    Because you to pat yourself on the back?

    Again you posted a quote from Truman but seem unable to actually source it what is the problem?

    Gars work is required reading at almost all Universities in the states.
    As is well should - I never said otherwise. That does not make Gar the generally accepted correct version of events nor erase the strong and consistent problems with his works. No unbiased reading list made today can include multiple books by him and fail to have at least Downfall (Frank), Hasegawa and Maddox somewhere on the reading list - otherwise you have fished around for biased classes and outdated reading lists.

    for example:

    http://www.csus.edu/indiv/d/dymj/fil...T192C_FA11.pdf
    http://www.temple.edu/history/immerm.../syllabus.html


    or as I posted before Kort's review of the state of the debate:

    http://www.theamericanpresident.us/i...ruman_bomb.pdf

    or Walker's (Recent Literature on Truman's Atomic Bomb Decision: A Search for Middle Ground. Diplomatic History, 29, 2, 311-334.)

    Now the two men differ Walker see's a middle ground (himself, Berstien, Hasegowa and even Frank) while Kort argues for a just binary Revisionist/Traditionalist split. However there is no doubt Gar Alperovitz is the hardest of Revisionists and his work has suffred some serious body blows delived by Frank, Maddox, Newman, and Bernstein -- it cannot be uncritically presented as fact or the center or CW with a straight face.

    The problem is there is no right answer and no professor is bound to any government dictated view and book list - so any particular class list can be skewed to the views of the instructor.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #290
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Have you read Walker´s book? probably not. Read before commenting.
    I have. Do you bother to read my posts I am rather sure I posted Walker's review in conjuction with Kort's here several pages ago and on other threads several times...

    My intent was toward Hanny's preference for Alperovitz

    I agree Walker prefers his self styled status as a moderate but I think like every other historian in the debate he has his own weak and strong arguments - on balance far fewer than Alperovitz, no argument on that point. What I find interesting Ludicus is that you seem to like Walker but are happy to buttress your argument with the junk quotes and methods of Alperovitz when it suits you and to slide rather easily and lawyer-like from military necessity, to just or justified or moral none of which are quite the same and to gloss over the difference between perfect hindsight and the actual time of decision.

    edit:

    In any case I think you must agree is not credible to argue just because Alperovitz is (as he should be) on some college syllabus he is not the one word of Truth... obviously Maddox has a more or less diametrically opposed view and argues just as forcefully for it.
    Last edited by conon394; April 04, 2012 at 03:27 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #291
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    I have
    Well, as Walker puts it, (already posted),

    the historical evidence makes clear that the popular view about the use of the bomb is a mythological construct for the following reasons:

    -there were other options available for ending the war within a reasonably short time without the bomb and without an invasion;
    -Truman and his key advisers believed that Japan was so weak that the war could end before an invasion began; that is, they did not regard an invasion as inevitable;
    -and even in the worst case, if an invasion of Japan proved to be necessary, military planners in the summer of 1945 projected the number of American lives lost at far fewer than the hundreds of thousands that Truman and his advisers claimed after the war.

    Now take time to read Samuel´s Historiographical Essay, previous post. One minute isnt enough.

    but are happy to buttress your argument with the junk quotes
    Quotes. There are no junk quotes. There are different interpretations of the quotes.

    like every other historian in the debate he has his own weak and strong arguments..on balance far fewer than Alperovitz
    On balance far fewer than Frank.
    ---

    The problem is there is no right answer ...the one word of Truth
    Absolutely.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 04, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #292
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quotes. There are no junk quotes. There are different interpretations of the quotes.
    No they are not as I said the ones you posted before where not quotes but recollections of a third party - a man who was not at all fond of either man and a man who had other recollections of stuff thatdoes not always match others (say Compton's about the Chicago lab). Other quotes that Alperovitz presents are often radically out of context or lack notice of long gaps that alter the meaning of the apparent quote.

    Or your racist quote from Truman.

    Because of something Truman might have wrote back in 1911? I say might have, because it’s not altogether clear if that is a real verifiable quote or a recollection of a letter by his wife. So wow a young man in southern Missouri only five decades removed from slavery and growing up in the segregated US (quick how many US states had anti-miscegenation laws in 1911 -> clue: most of them), after the failure of reconstruction mouthed the words his elders told him.

    But how about these quotes and actions:

    Executive order 9981 – desegregation of the US military Faced with the actual WW2, not a step the oh so great FDR took huh?. [Nor were these easy steps, the South was solidly against any such decisions and Truman faced a hostile congress almost across the board for all his actions below. Some of his quotes and what he managed may sound tepid today but he was well in front of the will of the people as shown by the congress he had to work with – there was certainly no easy percentage in his actual decisions they were against the CW - see below Democrats and losing the South.]

    http://www.trumanlibrary.org/9981.htm

    In support of the FEPC

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Em...ces_Commission

    “Today we stand on the threshold of a new world. We must do our part in making this world what is should be – a world in which the bigotries of race and class and creed shall not be permitted to warp the souls of men”

    Not to mention his strong executive actions to do the same to the civil service and government contracting.

    Or this report he commissioned.

    http://www.trumanlibrary.org/civilrights/srights1.htm

    Mind you this is after a congressional defeat in 1946 and equal rights were hardly likely to get him any votes and in fact risked losing the south as of course the Democrats have done.

    It’s true that has his friends and biographers can attest Truman never fully escaped the racism of his childhood in Missouri but I think it’s clear he personally moved away from it and that as President (or in other public offices) he forcefully held himself to a different standard.
    “I’ve got to make a speech to the Society for the Advancement of Colored People tomorrow [NOTE there is a gap here. I am afraid I cannot find the actual original letter to know what is being omitted. The only bit of omitted text I can find is of him saying he does not want to give the speech – but no reason why. Since the next sentence contradicts any ideal that he is lying it seems to me more likely he was simply worrying that his views had become very much different from the racist views of his family and friends in Missouri]. Mamma won’t like what I say because I wind up quoting old Abe. But I believe what I say and I’m hopeful we may implement it.”

    Again Truman was no saint and his views or personal comments often seem lacking from hindsight years later but consider the following:
    An exchange with a former friend about civil rights

    “While he’s in Independence, he receives a letter from a dear friend, a man named Ernie Roberts who he grew up with in Independence. Mr. Roberts has become an industrialist, highly successful and he writes his friend. I’m going to read you just an excerpt of this letter and I want you to know these letters were not letters that we often see today written for spin purposes, leaked. These were private correspondence that took decades before they saw the light. This is Ernie Roberts’ letter early August. He gets it in Independence. “Harry, you can win the South without the equal rights bill, but you cannot win the South with it. Just why? Harry, let us let the South take care of the which they’ve done and if the don’t like the southern treatment, let them come to Mrs. Roosevelt.”
    Now, Harry Truman could write some nasty letters when he was irritated. He took a week before he answered this letter and I must tell you, this letter to me was one of the most instructive things I found in my research. I’ll just read an excerpt of a long letter. “Dear Ernie. I’m going to send you a copy of the report on my Commission on Civil Rights and if then you still have that antebellum, pro-slavery outlook, I’ll be thoroughly disappointed in you. The main difficulty with the South is that they are living 80 years behind the time and the sooner they come out of it, the better it will for the country and themselves. When a Mayor and a City Marshall can take a Negro Sergeant off a bus in South Carolina, beat him up, put out one of his eyes and nothing is done about it by the state authorities, something is radically wrong with the system. I cannot approve of such goings on and I shall never approve it as long as I am here. As I told you before, I’m going to try to remedy it and if it ends up in my failure to be reelected, that failure will be in a good cause.”

    http://www.virginia.edu/uvanewsmaker...s/gardner.html


    Similarly consider this we have a supposed racist comment from Truman in congress and the proposition that he is only cynically looking for votes and would prefer an easy way out... But as he next pages show Truman never does take that out – he consistently voted for civil rights in congress rather being absent or some other BS.

    http://books.google.com/books?ei=bXl...0thing&f=false

    That should about pg. 156/7. Go forward or backward – Whatever you can say about what people expected of Truman or what his private comments were as a public figure - racism does not seem to have driven his decisions and it’s going to take a lot more that a single quote from his youth to change my mind on that. I think it is – more or less impossible to show that his public record - be it has President or back to his days as local judge were ever driven by racism. In fact Truman’s whole career shows a man who actively saw public office as a reason to avoid and disavow the racism of his youth. To bring up racism is just one more facile card in the weak hand that is the Revisionist venture.

    Now take time to read Samuel´s Historiographical Essay, previous post. One minute isnt enough.
    Are you trying to be insulting I have. have you read Kort's similar take? In any case thanks for the generally available version since I disliked only having Kort's review as a free generally available resource to post.

    On balance far fewer than Frank.
    I don't think so. In fact Walker buys into one of the fundimental mistakes of the revisionist camp the use of individual Magic/Ultra intercepts (and other intel) to make juicy counter factual arguments. The Strongest argument Frank makes and has reinforced since downfall is that US policy makers were reading daily diagests with commentary from analysts not raw data. Thus US generally understood the the actual situation the neither military nor the Emperor had provided any formal authorization for the supposed attempts at Soviet mediation.
    Last edited by conon394; April 04, 2012 at 04:04 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #293
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Are you still editing your post? have you finished? (j/k)
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #294

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Hardly, the lack of fact is the Fact you and Ludicus continue to present Gar Alpowitz as some kind of conventional wisdom standard rather the leading figure of the revisionist side of a very deeply dived debate that has dived historians for decades and has no significant consensus on most of the issues that have been tossed about in this thread.
    This is where you change from
    one that is certainly not generally accepted and a man known to litter his works with distorted quotes and out of context quotes and suspect scholarship
    to not knowing its the most widley used teaching text on the subject matter, and is a core teaching text across the western world.

    So already with the i have no idea what im posting about, your usual crap, which makes visiting this forum so unrewarding.

    You dont understand how eduction works,* http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/1025/atomic.htm you cannot even pass argueing as you do, in the US education system, as its the revisionsts who have won the debate and that is how it is now taught. You cant get a job in the state Dept without attending a course that deals specificly with that policy failure.

    * Class notes
    Critical Dates for Understanding Truman's Decision

    1. Truman delays Potsdam meeting with the Soviets until he is informed that the atomic bomb was successfully tested. The atomic bomb exploded in Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16th, and the Postdam meeting began on July 17th, 1945.b

    2. At Postdam, Truman gets the Soviets to agree to enter the war a week later than they had originally promised, moving the date from August 8th to August 15th, 1945.

    3. After Soviets agree to enter the war against Japan on August 15th, Truman then orders that the Atomic bombs be dropped on August 6th and 9th, 1945.

    4. If Truman thought that the war would be over as soon as the Soviets entered the war against Japan, why did he drop the atomic bombs on Japan before the Soviets could enter the war on August 15th, 1945?

    5. Recognizing that the United States had misled them, after the American atomic bombing of Hiroshima on August 6th, the Russians entered the war against Japan on August 9th. After the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and the Russian entry into the war on August 9th, the Japanese surrendered on August 10th and the U.S. accepted their surrender on August 15th--the day the Russians were scheduled to enter the war against Japan.

    6. In order to keep the Russians out of any peace settlement with Japan and prevent any Russian claims on Asia, the United States accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender on August 10th.The Japanese surrender wasn't an unconditional surrender, which President Truman had demanded of the Japanese since May 1945.

    7. Had the United States allowed the Japanese to keep their emperor the Japanese would have surrendered much earlier, as early as June 1945 when the Japanese offered a conditional surrender through Russian and Italian intermediaries.





    Because you to pat yourself on the back?
    No because your unable to read and comprehend.

    You dont even know Kort is required by law to teach it the way he does in Boston, using Gars book no less, you know, the Revionsist way, and has not written a book on the subject ever in his life.
    Last edited by Hanny; April 04, 2012 at 04:58 PM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  15. #295
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    You dont even know Kort is required by law to teach it the way he does in Boston
    Huh?

    using Gars book no less, you know, the Revionsist way
    And I have never said it should not be taught - it is the most aggressive, persistent representative of the revisionist side of this argument but it is not CW or the middle ground. My issue is your assertion that it is the accepted norm rather one side of very much not settled argument.

    and has not written a book on the subject ever in his life.
    Which subject exactly anyway getting lazy...

    http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-Hiros.../dp/0231130163

    and yet in any case he was asked to write a review of the current state of the lit on the topic not usually something journals do unless they they think you have a commend of the topic. The more important point is Walker was also offered the same opportunity and the two men produced two very different views which only shows the reality of my point any assertion that some 100 level syllabus is the one word of truth is patently farcical
    Last edited by conon394; April 04, 2012 at 05:36 PM.
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  16. #296
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Firstly, I would like to address the most important part,
    Are you trying to be insulting I have.
    Hmm? sincerely that was not my intention. I have enormous respect for you!

    ------
    That said, let´s adress the least important part of our dialogue,

    So wow a young man in southern Missouri only five decades removed from slavery and growing up in the segregated US (quick how many US states had anti-miscegenation laws in 1911 -> clue: most of them), after the failure of reconstruction mouthed the words his elders told him.
    Hehe, good try, but no, Truman´s letter is widely cited, for example, "Harry Truman, the State of Israel and the Quest for Peace in the Middle East" Link (Racial prejudice and anti-semitism)
    The sources are provided here.

    racism does not seem to have driven his decisions
    Or not...a beast is always a beast; (and a racist is always a racist). Cited by Samuel Walker in his book,
    "Dealing with a beast- Hatred of the Japanese, a desire for revenge for Pearl harbor and racist attitudes were part of the mix of motives that led to the atomic attacks"

    In fact Truman’s whole career shows a man who actively saw public office as a reason to avoid and disavow the racism of his youth.To bring up racism is just one more facile card in the weak hand that is the Revisionist venture.
    Hehe, I really appreciate your afforts, you are desperately trying to clean his image.

    NO QUARTER GIVEN: THE CHANGE IN STRATEGIC BOMBING APPLICATION IN THE PACIFIC THEATER DURING WORLD WAR II, post 134,
    "This anti-Japanese sentiment was resident in official speeches, publications, and government documents"

    I posted before Kort's review of the state of the debate:
    http://www.theamericanpresident.us/i...ruman_bomb.pdf
    Indeed, post 135.

    ...or Middle Ground. Diplomatic History, 29, 2, 311-334.)
    ...where? I havent found it yet.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 04, 2012 at 06:27 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  17. #297

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    I find it very interesting that the Nazi bombing of Britain is universally condemned, while the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are often considered justified. The two principles were essentially the same: use bombings in order to terrorize the opposing nation into submission. The only difference I can see is in effectiveness and who won the war.

    So my question to those who consider the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings justified is, what is the significant distinction between the two that prevents an analogy? Or if you prefer, why is the Nazi bombing of Britain in principle correct, and is it considered unethical for some other reason?

  18. #298
    Lord Rahl's Avatar Behold the Beard
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artorath View Post
    I find it very interesting that the Nazi bombing of Britain is universally condemned, while the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are often considered justified. The two principles were essentially the same: use bombings in order to terrorize the opposing nation into submission. The only difference I can see is in effectiveness and who won the war.

    So my question to those who consider the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings justified is, what is the significant distinction between the two that prevents an analogy? Or if you prefer, why is the Nazi bombing of Britain in principle correct, and is it considered unethical for some other reason?

    What you should understand is that bombing of civilian populations, by both sides, in WWII was not uncommon. I don't consider the Nazi bombing of Britain to be any more disgusting than some of the bombing campaigns in Europe or Japan. What's generally debated with the atomic bombs is their use to end the war. If you go by today's moral standards, pretty much all strategic bombing in WWII was immoral. Then you add to that the deliberate bombing of civilians that were condemned by both sides yet used by both. But with the atomic bombs you have a new level of destruction with one weapon. A destruction that very much helped bring an end to the Pacific War. So, the question is whether they were justified to end the war or not.

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  19. #299
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny
    In the US edu system its been taught as a political policy failure, and mil unecesary event for a decade.


    Source this. Please. I'd really love to see you back that up. The US education system is no where near that monolithic, so it's hilarious you can just assert a sweeping generalization like that.

    You would lose that wagger, as you post content show you to be self taught and pretty unifomed in general.


    Jesus you're making me laugh so hard that i'm actually coughing as I type this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    You have demonstrated a rude verbal behaviour.
    Oh, well in that case i'm very sorry. I didn't know you had to be nice on the Internet in the face of stupidity and willful ignorance.

    For example, the answer to Nightmare Moon is bordering on trolling,
    How was that trolling exactly? Was there something I was begging the question on? Nope.

    In case you haven´t noticed, I have quoted extensively from books/statistics/opinion articles.
    Quoted extensively from books and "articles" that are academically or ideologically biased, outright crazy (like that LaRouche author you STILL haven't even owned up for), and in many cases were taken out of historical context.

    Not much of a resume to lean on as a rhetorical crutch, which is something I saw very early in most of your posts so far.

    And you? five posts, an intolerant /agressive behaviour
    So? You can't take the heat for being wrong then get out. I really don't care if you get butthurt over myself or however many other posters having to debunk these ridiculous notions you're propagating, and finally make you accept the truth.

    almost zero contribution to the thread


    That rich considering the overall negative contribution to the thread you've made so far. And I guess you're just going to completely dismiss everything I said in that giant first post I made?

    As i've said, this isn't the first misguided "Hiroshima & Nagasaki" thread that i've seen pop up since i've joined, and it certainly won't be the last.

    At least in some previous ones there were attempts at reasoned debate on this subject. This one pales in comparison, and is made all the worse with some of the patently ridiculous sources you keep using.

    At the moment?...
    What am I supposed to say about this?...I'm not going to answer that question, it´s completely irrelevant.
    You're the one who brought education into question. Just sayin....

    I doubt you even have a Masters, much less a Doctorate.
    Last edited by Caelius; April 05, 2012 at 04:29 AM.

  20. #300

    Default Re: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Justified?

    No bombing of civilians will ever be justified. When you are at war, your business is with the soldiers. Whether those soldiers will ever surrender to you or not is irrelevant. Attacking civilian populations is plain wrong. Yes, both sides did it. People will continue to do it forever. And they will be monsters for it.
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