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Thread: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

  1. #61

    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    I wrote a post earlier, but I can't find it now.

    I had the same idea about Ports - should be possible to fortify them with arty AND infantry. Likewise, ships should be able to levy crews against them. It would be amazing if there was a 'food' value for a ship too. Big ships could have a lot of food for many turns. Eventually, all ships would have to return to ports quite regularly. Of course this is made a bit awkward in Vanilla which has 2 turns per year, so it's not uncommon to have ships sitting in one location for 80+ years. I guess the idea though (especially with trade ships) is that this is where they are stationed and the ships are merely representations. It's not that unreasonable for a ship to start in one location and sail back and forth to their home port in 6 months (In spite of the fact that it might have taken them 2 years to cross from the Atlantic to the East indies...). It's just tough to rationalize single level combatable ships with their campaign map counterparts.

    Anyhow, I would also like to see weather take more of a role too. Large meteorological systems such as localized heat waves, variable snow covering that impedes map movement. Certain units that are better at moving around in certain weather conditions. It's already half there with some units being better with certain types of battlefield conditions and a few units that can move better in the wilderness areas. But not enough.

    One of the biggest things I'd like to see is 0 turn militia/rabble/mob units and VARIABLE SIZE units for 'undisciplined' troops - based on population. Further, it would be amazing if we could recruit certain types of troops in some of the other buildings. It's not unheard of for citizenry to take up arms - these types of troops are already in the game. But it doesn't really make a lot of sense that they show up in 200 units or whatever.

    I'd love to see churches able to recruit working class rabble, with the size of the force being based on the size of the church, the population level, and the richness of the town would determine what their armament type would be. IE:
    Large church in a rich town in a high population province - Recruits mob with approx 150 units, using mostly hunting rifles, almost as good as line infantry stats, with high morale, but no special combat abilities like fire by rank.
    Large church in a very poor town with high population - recruits mob with approx 150 units, but using mostly farming implements. Strong morale, good melee unit with low attack, but good charge bonus, but well suited to the terrain.
    Small church in a growing town with low population - Recruits mob with approx 40 units, using mostly longbows, Medium morale, low melee attack and poor charge bonus.

    Each step of church would allow one more unit of recruitment. Units could be 'called to action' rather than recruited. Pay a small amount of money and they form up instantly. Use very low upkeep, but have their morale drop 25% each turn that there is no enemy in the home territory and when it hits 0, they disband and return to their homes. Also, while units exist, the effects of the building that trained them are halved. These mob cannot leave home territory and they are tied to the building, so a building can only train so many.

    Of course, you could have similar units for other buildings. I would imagine that people that frequent taverns would have a slightly different characteristic than church going sheep, so you might find a little bit more powerful units - although probably lower morale. Less farming implements, more cudgels, knives and pistols.

    Likewise, farms and occupational buildings would field strong, but not well armed, nor high morale troops unlikely to have advanced weaponry. Access to chemicals would probably indicate that the better of these could field some makeshift grenades, but with less range than grenadiers (I'm a fan of increased range of all troops, although possibly not as dramatically as DMUC). Might be fun to see a unit with chains for the poorer towns. Farms would likely have access to horses as well - and possibly wagons. Could be interesting if these guys could build fences.

    Schools would yield smaller units in general, but significantly more skilled and possibly armored. Would be really fun to see a good variety of units in schools, maybe including mini trebuchets, crossbows, double barreled rifles/muskets, possibly some of the smaller scale, simpler artillery units as well, maybe a mini-mortar or an early model of rocket with direct fire, fire arrows, quickly deployable traps (Caltrops, small mines, smoke bombs)... Also, gentlemen cavalry, armed with pistols and a sword.

    It could also be possible to add factors such as happiness of the city (note that this can already be affected by the presence of enemy troops).

    This would add quite a strong level of sophistication to raiding. It doesn't really make any sense to me that a shattered 4 soldier unit can go around raiding the heck out of Palatial estates and such with absolutely no resistance. It also doesn't make much sense to me that the 'mob' citizenry doesn't seem to really get any stronger, regardless of how well or how badly you are doing.

  2. #62
    DeValiere's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvid View Post
    Unless your army is filled to the brim with skirmishers and other outdoorsy types, and all your opponent has is dumb line infantry and artillery in primary-color uniforms you can see a mile away

    What constitutes "bad ground" is entirely up to what forces you have at your disposal. Cavalry would love hilly terrain, they can go up the hill much faster than infantry, charge down it for devastating impacts, and use the valleys to shield themselves from artillery.

    I sincerely hope that any future iterations of E:TW will feature more variety in terrain between regions and parts of regions, and more involved terrain penalties for traditional European line infantry tactics. A half-stack of natives or militiamen might be easily dispatched by a comparative or even smaller force if caught out in the open but if they stick to the heavily wooded region right next to it....you could send a full-stack and still get massacred since you can't see the majority of the opposing force and they just keep coming out of nowhere, sniping and initiating close combat and then turning invisible again.

    A game that can more accurately simulate the huge disparity in tactics and force composition between Europe and North America would probably become my favorite game ever(as if E:TW isn't already
    Given that Line Infantry and artillery were the back bone of most European armies of the period, with skirmishers and cavalry in support, bad ground is any ground that doesn't allow for the best use of the core elements of a conventional army. For example, artillery can't fire through hills. They can shoot at what they can see more or less, hence clear lines of sight and fire. Certainly hilly terrain would have it's pros and cons depending on how unconventional your army might be I suppose but as a general you'd also want to at least be able to have a good view of most of the battlefield too - so again, unless something's gone horribly wrong and you've been ambushed, you wouldn't be wanting to deploy in heavy forests or steep, hilly terrain unless your entire force was skirmishers...

    I think that for the wars fought in North America you'd need some fairly significant advances in the way units behave - the "skirmishing" mode in Empire for me isn't much chop. It would be a matter of somehow getting the irregular units to be realistic in their combat style on a more individual level. Better use of cover and even individual soldiers in a unit being able to engage while the rest are forming up or arriving at a position even. You have to capture the nature of the conflict in a way that's more fluid for the non British troops. Even the way a unit withdraws could be tweaked so that as it pulls back there are still troops firing at the enemy - real hit and run type tactics for the wilds of North America. The way FoTS handles ambushes would suit that theater well I think. Can just see a British column being bushwhacked by a Native / French force!

    I think in some ways that the way TW is headed might offer us a chance of this into the future perhaps but I guess there's no guarantee of that sadly.
    Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"-- with his mouth.
    Mark Twain - What Is Man?

  3. #63
    Sir Furlong's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Cavalry would love hilly terrain, they can go up the hill much faster than infantry, charge down it for devastating impacts, and use the valleys to shield themselves from artillery.
    Personally I would have to disagree with you, historically anyways. Cavalry would have been disadvantaged in hilly terrain even though they would still be faster than infantry they lose a lot of the maneuverability that they would have on open ground, as well as hilly terrain typically being more rocky/rough would would be harder on the horses. Also from reading the Richard Sharpe series (great read for Napoleonic fiction) they would seek out hilly areas to shelter themselves from French cavalry patrols.

    Of course charging downhill with cavalry would still be devastating

  4. #64

    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Furlong View Post
    Personally I would have to disagree with you, historically anyways. Cavalry would have been disadvantaged in hilly terrain even though they would still be faster than infantry they lose a lot of the maneuverability that they would have on open ground, as well as hilly terrain typically being more rocky/rough would would be harder on the horses. Also from reading the Richard Sharpe series (great read for Napoleonic fiction) they would seek out hilly areas to shelter themselves from French cavalry patrols.

    Of course charging downhill with cavalry would still be devastating

    All I know is that *I* love hilly terrain when I have a cavalry-heavy army - with a bit of clever maneuvering you can usually minimize the amount of incoming artillery fire while positioning the cav for flank attacks, and if the infantry gives chase, I find that I can put the most amount of distance between me and them by going uphill - and then charging down

  5. #65
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvid View Post
    All I know is that *I* love hilly terrain when I have a cavalry-heavy army - with a bit of clever maneuvering you can usually minimize the amount of incoming artillery fire while positioning the cav for flank attacks, and if the infantry gives chase, I find that I can put the most amount of distance between me and them by going uphill - and then charging down

    Oh yes the poor AI doesn't stand a chance vs us

  6. #66
    DeValiere's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Not wanting to be a party pooper (can I say poop on the forums?) but... cavalry in it's proper 18th/19th Century context consisted of light and heavy units - and hilly terrain may well have afforded both types shelter and an excellent opportunity to charge down under the right circumstances. However, heavy cavalry tires easily and the lighter cavalry will too eventually - at which point any hills that are present become a big problem. A study of what happened to the heavy allied cavalry at Waterloo will tell you that very clearly. Hills + exhausted cavalry = oops. Fatigue was one of the very real issues cavalry faced - and unlike in Empire where you may be lucky enough to get your cavalry out of the action for long enough to recover, blown out heavy cavalry were pretty much stuffed on the real battlefield and indeed became easy prey for lighter units. So, hills to me are useful to provide that CHARGE!!!! momentum, but I don't like them so much when my cavalry is exhausted and trying to withdraw.

    Edit: Forgot to add - Huzzah!
    Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"-- with his mouth.
    Mark Twain - What Is Man?

  7. #67

    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    That's another thing that needs to be added to E:TW 2 DeValiere - cavalry that is pushed too hard for too long should get a fatigue state "blown" from which they can't recover by resting, making them underperform for the rest of the battle.

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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeValiere View Post
    Not wanting to be a party pooper (can I say poop on the forums?) but…
    I'll ask you to keep that unsavory gutter talk in the burlesque sir!


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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeValiere View Post
    Not wanting to be a party pooper (can I say poop on the forums?) but... cavalry in it's proper 18th/19th Century context consisted of light and heavy units - and hilly terrain may well have afforded both types shelter and an excellent opportunity to charge down under the right circumstances. However, heavy cavalry tires easily and the lighter cavalry will too eventually - at which point any hills that are present become a big problem. A study of what happened to the heavy allied cavalry at Waterloo will tell you that very clearly. Hills + exhausted cavalry = oops. Fatigue was one of the very real issues cavalry faced - and unlike in Empire where you may be lucky enough to get your cavalry out of the action for long enough to recover, blown out heavy cavalry were pretty much stuffed on the real battlefield and indeed became easy prey for lighter units. So, hills to me are useful to provide that CHARGE!!!! momentum, but I don't like them so much when my cavalry is exhausted and trying to withdraw.

    Edit: Forgot to add - Huzzah!
    A well thought out post from DeValiere. Contentwise and formally of the highest standard as usual.
    By the way DeValiere I like your new Avatar very much. It reminds me of the good old times in the ministry of silly walks.
    In conjunction to silliness I would like to add that it is ridiculous that Empire Total War is lacking some sort of take-cover
    or perhaps lay on the ground ability for infantry. That would allow to avoid the worst effects of artillery bombardment.
    Units in that kind of formation should of course be very vulnerable to infantry or cavalry attacks.

    Well I have to go back to the stables now to attend to a urgent horse manure crisis.

  10. #70

    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    By the way DeValiere I like your new Avatar very much. It reminds me of the good old times in the ministry of silly walks.
    I concur. And it doesn't hurt things a bit that some of the greatest Monty Python sketches poke fun at certain aspects of British military history and practices("Marching Up and Down the Square", the "A Tiger? In Africa?" sketch from the Boer War, and of course The Funniest Joke in the World").

    Good times, need to go review my Flying Circus DVDs....

    I think that for the wars fought in North America you'd need some fairly significant advances in the way units behave - the "skirmishing" mode in Empire for me isn't much chop. It would be a matter of somehow getting the irregular units to be realistic in their combat style on a more individual level. Better use of cover and even individual soldiers in a unit being able to engage while the rest are forming up or arriving at a position even. You have to capture the nature of the conflict in a way that's more fluid for the non British troops
    I wholeheartedly agree, and must use this opportunity to once again profess my love for the gone(but not forgotten) game franchise Close Combat by Microsoft/Atomic Games. Best real-time tactical game featuring light infantry, squad-based tactics ever. I think it's a franchise in need of revival now in the 3D era and would be a great acquisition for the CE, if only so they could gain access to the critically acclaimed troop psychology modelling for use in future TW games.
    Last edited by Corvid; April 06, 2012 at 05:07 PM.

  11. #71
    Taraphir's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Loading time before tactical battle should be reduced significantly.
    I think Creative Assembly succeeded in that field in regard to Shogun 2.
    Therefore I imagine the very same thing could easily be done for Empire Total War as well.

  12. #72

    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Say what? The load times for all aspects of S2TW are longer than ETW for me.

  13. #73
    Taraphir's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CTD_or_Bust View Post
    Say what? The load times for all aspects of S2TW are longer than ETW for me.
    Thanks for correcting me on this CTD_or_Bust. I do not own Shogun 2 and assumed wrongly that loading times have been reduced for this newest installment to the Total War Series. Well I´m under the impression that Creative Assembly has still a lot of homework to do until the loading time problem is
    solved for Empire Total War, Napoleon and Shogun 2.

  14. #74
    Taraphir's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    The population size of a city should define the number of available building slots!

  15. #75
    Sir Furlong's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    And the total number of units you can have recruited from there?

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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Watching 90 or 140 cavalry units walking in perfect rectangular formation turns me over. They should be scripted to use instead a something like "hun horde circular formation" from RTW.

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    DeValiere's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Actually.... you know... wouldn't it be awesome if you could drill down to review your armies like you could review cities in RTW? As commander in chief, you should be able to have a good old fashioned march past in order to review the troops... That would be killer. Possibly to keep it somewhat more logical, drill down to view a town and if there are troops present, they could be on parade for review... Best of both worlds.

    Meh. Dreams are free.
    Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"-- with his mouth.
    Mark Twain - What Is Man?

  18. #78
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeValiere View Post
    Actually.... you know... wouldn't it be awesome if you could drill down to review your armies like you could review cities in RTW? As commander in chief, you should be able to have a good old fashioned march past in order to review the troops... That would be killer. Possibly to keep it somewhat more logical, drill down to view a town and if there are troops present, they could be on parade for review... Best of both worlds.

    Meh. Dreams are free.
    Actually that's fairly easy to be scripted, I mean the parade. But they also dropped out the view of the cities. Yeah I miss that too. And with some mods RTW cities looked fantastic, in diff weather:
    Last edited by Dracula; April 22, 2012 at 08:01 PM.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    I want to see the AI get more agressive in landing troops overseas.
    Its not realistic that, as the British, you can leave the British Isles undefended.
    Islands like Iceland, Corsica and Sardinia are generally never taken and most countries never bother sending ships to the Carribean.
    There needs to be more naval battles in the atlantic and the Carribean should be hotly contested!

    The AI hyper-agression of the Maratha Confederacy should be curtailed. Historically the Mughal Empire was stronger and more agressive. Maybe a balanced 50% chance for either AI faction would be more realistic. Obviously, if you were playing as the Maratha Confederacy, the agression of the Mughal Empire would be more like 75+%.


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  20. #80
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My Perfect Empire TW would be...?

    Quote Originally Posted by =Prince Nuada= View Post
    I want to see the AI get more agressive in landing troops overseas.
    Its not realistic that, as the British, you can leave the British Isles undefended.
    Islands like Iceland, Corsica and Sardinia are generally never taken and most countries never bother sending ships to the Carribean.
    Unfortunately the game is not precizely historicall. But in my game there's plenty of that. Some time ago playing Spain I had to organize one army only to watch out my islands in the Carribic and to extract the troops that got there-in time. And I even got Venice or the Italian States send a 16 unit army to one of them. Jamaica I think it was. In my current campaign Britain sent an average army to take Acadia with a 14 ship fleet and they disembarked there even though they had a bordering province-it did not come by land.


    Quote Originally Posted by =Prince Nuada= View Post
    There needs to be more naval battles in the atlantic and the Carribean should be hotly contested!
    yeah I am often complaining there is no treasure fleets in the game moving along certain routes that can meet you. That has to be scripted in a next such game. I think once you defeat the opposing fleet you won't see action soon if ever. And that you do early in game leaving you with nothing for late.

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